42 replies to this topic

[MarkWill]

Hi,

Another toy-related question, I`m afraid. Looking at an old Dinky set of World Famous Racing Cars, I saw that there was a Cooper-Bristol which they put in alongside a red maserati, a red alfa romeo, a blue talbot lago, a blue ferrari with a yellow nose, and a Vanwall (no BRM!!!). They are all front-engined fifties racers, and the Cooper-Bristol looked in model form to be about the same size as the other cars. Was this true? Also, how did Bristol become involved in supplying engines for race cars - was it a private Copper initiative, or was there backing from Bristol? And yes, I have looked around on some of the other sites, but I don`t see any obvious tie to the Dinky model.

Hoping this can be quickly answered.

[Ray Bell]

It just happened that Bristol were making an engine that fitted with the prevailing F2 regs... 2-litres... and that it lent itself fairly well to reliable hopping up...

It was, in fact, a pre-war BMW engine, collared by Bristol as war reparations, and it was used by others in that formula.

[cosworth bdg]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
It just happened that Bristol were making an engine that fitted with the prevailing F2 regs... 2-litres... and that it lent itself fairly well to reliable hopping up...

It was, in fact, a pre-war BMW engine, collared by Bristol as war reparations, and it was used by others in that formula.

Ray , was it the 6cyl unit,?

[Peter Leversedge]

The Bristol engine inthe Cooper Bristol was a 6 cylinder. A number of these cars found there way to New Zealand

[David Birchall]

The engine was the one that Bristol got from BMW after the war as war reparations. Frazer Nash wanted it but could not swing the deal apparently so passed it on to Bristol on the understanding that Frazer Nash was supplied with the engines. It had started out in the thirties as a basic touring car engine and was refined by Fritz Fiedler and powered the BMW 328, probably the most sophisticated pre-war sports car for sale to the public. Bristol used it in their 400 through 406 cars and it was also in the AC Ace Bristol and the post war Frazer Nash car range of course.
I am writing this off the top of my head since I can't sleep....

[D-Type]

Originally posted by MarkWill
Hi,

Another toy-related question, I`m afraid. Looking at an old Dinky set of World Famous Racing Cars, I saw that there was a Cooper-Bristol which they put in alongside a red maserati, a red alfa romeo, a blue talbot lago, a blue ferrari with a yellow nose, and a Vanwall (no BRM!!!). They are all front-engined fifties racers, and the Cooper-Bristol looked in model form to be about the same size as the other cars. Was this true? Also, how did Bristol become involved in supplying engines for race cars - was it a private Copper initiative, or was there backing from Bristol? And yes, I have looked around on some of the other sites, but I don`t see any obvious tie to the Dinky model.

Hoping this can be quickly answered.

The Dinky Toys:

The Vanwall didn't really belong in the set as it came later (1958)

The others were a set of six which curiously were about 1:38 or 1:40 scale rather than the usual 1:43. Their relative size looks about right. The set comprised:

Talbot-Lago, light blue, No 4. The cenntre-seat Formula 1 car
Ferrari, dark blue/yellow nose, No 5. I'm not sure what the prototype was - either the 1950-51 V12 F2 car or the 1952-53 4-cylinder 500 formula 2 car
Cooper-Bristol, green, No 6. I think the 1952 Mk 1 Formula 2 car
HWM, light green, No 7. The 1952 Formula 2 car, I think, rather than the 1953 version
Alfa Romeo, red, No 8. The 158/159
Maserati, red with a white flash on the nose, No 9. I've never been sure which car this was modelled on - it could be the 4CLT/48 Formula 1 car or the 1952 A6GCS Formula 2 car

Then later Dinky produced

Mercedes, white (not silver!), No 30. The W196 streamliner
Connaught light green, No 32. The B-Type streamliner
Vanwall, green, No 35.

But these were a different range with drivers cast separately and scale the usual 1:43

All were on general sale with no commercial tie up.

The Cooper-Bristol car - others have given the story so I won't repeat it. Cooper moving up market from the motorcycle-engined 500s and selling the cars as well as running a works team.

[Dutchy]

Just to clarify what has just been written, the Ferrari is the 1952 Tipo 500 F2 car - 4 stub exhaust give it away as the 1953 version had a proper exhaust system. The Alfa is a 158 not the rather more bulbous 159 and the Maserati is an A6G F2 car.

[Allan Lupton]

Originally posted by MarkWill
Another toy-related question, I`m afraid. Looking at an old Dinky set of World Famous Racing Cars, I saw that there was a Cooper-Bristol which they put in alongside a red alfa romeo. They are all front-engined fifties racers, and the Cooper-Bristol looked in model form to be about the same size as the other cars. Was this true?

I believe that the wheelbase of the Cooper is 7'6" (2.29m) and the Alfa 158/9 is 8' 2½" (2.50m). At a scale of 1:43 that's 5 millimetres so that is rather different.

As a matter of interest to one who prefers to work to a scale of 12 inches to the foot, what is the origin of the (apparantly) random 1:43 scale that is so often used?

[David Lawson]

Toy manufacturers often used to juggle the scale and size in a range to fit the standard size box they used so this may be relevant to the Dinky Cooper Bristol dimensions.

David

[D-Type]

1:43 is the same as Gauge '0' model trains, which I think was 1 3/8 inch track gauge. This reflects the origins of Dinky Toys as lineside accessories for Hornby Railways.

Does anybody know whether the colours for the Ferrari and Maserati are based on real-life cars?

[MarkWill]

Many thanks gentlemen. Was the Bristol engine the same one which powered the Arnolt-Bristol then ?
On the Toys front, I noticed two different types of yellow stripe applied to different versions of the Ferrari - one which when viewd from above looked like a yellow shield, and another which was the conventional wrap-around stripe. I guess this was artistic license.
I found some decent pictures on: www.classics.com/lagsc01.html if anyone is interested.

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by MarkWill
Many thanks gentlemen. Was the Bristol engine the same one which powered the Arnolt-Bristol then ?

Essentially, yes, although there were different levels of tune available.

[Barry Boor]

Far less well-known, but much better quality and of similar (the same?) scale are the Crescent series of cars from more or less the same era.

The 2 cars common to both series are the Ferrari (red in the Crescent series) and the Cooper-Bristol.

However, there the similarity ends, as you can see...



My Dinky car is blue because it represents the David Murray car from the British Grand Prix of 1952.

The Crescent is very different. As to which is closer to the original I am not well-up enough to say. Maybe they both are.

I am fortunate enough to own 2 full sets of the Dinky cars (both in original state and re-painted for specific drivers in specific races; (e.g. green Ferrari, #15, for Hawthorn, Argentina 1953) and all but one of the Crescents (the missing one being the Vanwall, models of which are rarer than hen's teeth and fetch well over £100 when they very occasionally turn up on E**y.)

D-type knows all about that one!

[Allan Lupton]

Originally posted by D-Type
1:43 is the same as Gauge '0' model trains, which I think was 1 3/8 inch track gauge. This reflects the origins of Dinky Toys as lineside accessories for Hornby Railways.

Thanks, but 1"3/8 gauge would be 1:41

Since the scale of even the better '0' gauge Hornby toys was not uniform, it may still be the right reason for 1:43

[fyrth]

And whilst on the subject of Dinky models 'powered by Bristol' I should mention the Bristol 450 Le Mans coupe.

[MarkWill]

Just for info, the Crescent Vanwall seems to be fetching more in the order of GBP 240 on another auction site, so GBP 100 looks like a bargin! I also saw this advert:


"A group of Crescent Racers - (1) D Type Jaguar - dark green, racing no.4, (2) BRM Mk.2 Grand Prix - mid-green, racing no.7, (3) Connaught 2ltr - green, racing no.8, (4) Maserati - brick red, racing no.3, (5) Mercedes Benz 2.5ltr - silver, racing no.12, (6) Aston Martin DB3S - white, racing no.6, (7) Cooper Bristol - blue, racing no.2, (8) Gordini - light blue, racing no.14 and (9) Vanwall - racing no.10 " which went for GBP 280 not so long ago.

Back to the BMW/Bristol engine - I saw on Wikipedia that there was a Lotus which used it. Which one? Also, does anyone know how Bristol was able to get away with acquiring this design as "war reparations"?

[D-Type]

Well, my AC Aceca had a Bristol engine to make it competitive with my Porsche 356 and Dinky France Alfa Romeo 1900.

How should you pronounce Aceca? Ace-car, Ace-cur, Ass-see-car, Ass-seeker or wot?

Mark Will, the 'shield' yellow nose on the Ferrari was a later variant

In the real world, in Formula 2 (which meant Grand Prix in 1952-53) as well as the Cooper, the Bristol engine was also used in the G Type ERA and the Frazer Nash, but as they were both heavier than the Cooper they weren't so successful.

The Bristol engine powered several sports cars starting with the Frazer Nash 'High Speed' sports racer that became the Le Mans Replica and the later 'Sebring' and 'Targa Florio' models that were really road cars; some Cooper single seaters were converted to sports versions and Cooper built some as sports cars; Bristol themselves produced the 450 based on the ERA G-Type which ran at Le Mans and Reims in 1953 and 54 as coupe (the twin finned one they made a Dinky of) and at Le Mans in 1955 as an open car; the Lotus Mk10 was a development of the Mk 8 designed to take the Bristol engine; AC sold a Bristol engine as an option for the Ace open sports car and the Aceca coupe; Lister produced a successful sports/racer and Tojeiro a less successful one; and as you mentioned, Arnolt in the USA also made a Bristol-powered car.

And finally, Jack Brabham shoehorned a Bristol engine into the rear of a modified 'bobtail' Cooper sports and ran it in the 1955 British GP and later won the Formule Libre Australian GP

[MarkWill]

Wow, D-Type, I have to say that your answer is really comprehensive - thanks.

[Barry Boor]

Completely O.T. - the most recent Crescent Vanwall on Ebay (other auction sites are available!) without box and reasonably 'playworn' topped out at around £60.

I was surprised but it was still way above my ceiling for a toy car.

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by MarkWill

Back to the BMW/Bristol engine - I saw on Wikipedia that there was a Lotus which used it. Which one? Also, does anyone know how Bristol was able to get away with acquiring this design as "war reparations"?

The Lotus 10 was designed to use two-litre engines, with the Bristol being the usual choice; I think some Lotus 15s also had it didn't they? (Essentially the 10 was to the 8 as the 15 was to the Eleven, but most 15s were FPF-powered?)

[Dutchy]

Originally posted by petefenelon


The Lotus 10 was designed to use two-litre engines, with the Bristol being the usual choice; I think some Lotus 15s also had it didn't they? (Essentially the 10 was to the 8 as the 15 was to the Eleven, but most 15s were FPF-powered?)

Can't recall a Bristol powered 15.
Dizzy Addicott put a Buick V8 in one though.

[Ray Bell]

So did John Schroder...

But well after its effective expiry date.

[D-Type]

Well, here's some details of a couple of the Bristol cars the engine was meant for: Bristol 400 and Bristol 403 courtesy of Coys.

Away from reality and into the realms of the affordable, I've found that Dinky (France) produced a Talbot-Lago and Ferrari (red this time) that used different castings from the Binns road produced toys.

[Mal9444]

Originally posted by Dutchy
Just to clarify what has just been written, the Ferrari is the 1952 Tipo 500 F2 car - 4 stub exhaust give it away as the 1953 version had a proper exhaust system. The Alfa is a 158 not the rather more bulbous 159 and the Maserati is an A6G F2 car.

Pictures of four of the cars mentioned in this post from my own collection. The green one second from the right is the HWM painted and restored by yours truly, the others are originals in varied condition.



Maserati A6G Formula 2 car which seems to be the model for the Dinky - but as has already been asked in this thread, does anyone know if the white flash on the nose of the dinky relates to any real car? The race number is 9. Frankly I greatly doubt if Dinky bothered with that sort of realism, given the fairly cavalier attitude to rather more important matters, such as scale. Likewise the colour scheme of the Dinky Ferrari above, which I have heard somewhere was supposed to represent a car driven by Prince Bira. No doubt Barry knows the answers.




A photo of a car also claiming to be a Maser A6G Formula 2 - which could hardly be more different. Did this Maser have several different bodies - or is it a completely different car?



And just to get back to topic - the car on the extreme left of the top picture is an early (23G) version of the Dinky (it has the wrong tyres - the originals were grey) with which the thread began. (Later versions of the Dinky Cooper-Bristol were a lighter shade of green.

[Mal9444]

Sorry - in the post above the pictures of the two Masers have become transposed - but you still get the picture, I am sure (if you see what I mean)

[David McKinney]

The lower Maserati pic is of a 1952 A6GCM, the upper one of a 1953 A6GCM

[MarkWill]

Has anyone checked the Bristol 403 on the Coys link? Seriously, its a work of art. My impression of Bristol has always been that they are plodders (although we do business with Bristol Aerospace, and they are anything but...) so I am a bit suprised to see that they had the resources to support several racing teams, as well as concentrating on car production. I guess that, in those days, they were trying to recoup the tooling costs on the engine, so they made it as available as possible (pure speculation on my part - I don't see why they made the engine otherwise).

On the auction front, I noticed that since C & S put in an article about the Ecurie Ecosse transporter, the prices have gone through the roof.

[Rob G]

Originally posted by Mal9444
Likewise the colour scheme of the Dinky Ferrari above, which I have heard somewhere was supposed to represent a car driven by Prince Bira. No doubt Barry knows the answers.

That looks to be sort of a cross between Bira's car and the colors of Argentina.

[Barry Boor]

Thank you, Mark, but I fear you credit me with more knowledge than actually I have.

Regarding those 6 Dinky cars - my personal view is that the colours chosen by Dinky were purely arbitrary.

There is evidence that the long white triangle on the 4.CLT Maserati was something approaching the colour scheme used by the Swiss driver de Graffenried on occasions, but as to the rest....

The blue and yellow Ferrari has always bugged me. Argentina or Bira? Well, neither would have used a blue that dark, I feel fairly sure, so I reckon that's just a whim. Although I would love to find out that a Ferrari once looked like that.

The rest are more or less correct for their time, though I would be surprised to find that any H.W.M ever ran in quite that colour.

Without going into my Millennium Shed I have this feeling that the Talbot Lago has yellow numbers. Why????

The Crescent series in some respects, mirrors the Dinky one. Most of the cars are pretty authentic colours - but then they paint the B.R.M is a garish bright green and the Cooper Bristol blue (see above photo). However, the 2 Italian cars are correct, as are the Mercedes, the Connaught, the Gordini and the much sought-after Vanwall.

P.S. Crescent made a D-type and an Aston Martin in the same scale (roughly) too. I have neither but their colours were o.k. although they chose the American colours for the Aston, which were used once at Le Mans.

[Mal9444]

Originally posted by Barry Boor
Regarding those 6 Dinky cars - my personal view is that the colours chosen by Dinky were purely arbitrary.

There is evidence that the long white triangle on the 4.CLT Maserati was something approaching the colour scheme used by the Swiss driver de Graffenried on occasions, but as to the rest....

The blue and yellow Ferrari has always bugged me. Argentina or Bira? Well, neither would have used a blue that dark, I feel fairly sure, so I reckon that's just a whim. Although I would love to find out that a Ferrari once looked like that.

The rest are more or less correct for their time, though I would be surprised to find that any H.W.M ever ran in quite that colour.

Without going into my Millennium Shed I have this feeling that the Talbot Lago has yellow numbers. Why????

The Crescent series in some respects, mirrors the Dinky one. Most of the cars are pretty authentic colours - but then they paint the B.R.M is a garish bright green and the Cooper Bristol blue (see above photo). However, the 2 Italian cars are correct, as are the Mercedes, the Connaught, the Gordini and the much sought-after Vanwall.

P.S. Crescent made a D-type and an Aston Martin in the same scale (roughly) too. I have neither but their colours were o.k. although they chose the American colours for the Aston, which were used once at Le Mans.

Barry - you are the classs expert on race car colour schemes and numbers

Interesting you think the Dinky Maser is the 4CLT and not the A6GCN of 52. So do I (I think the 4CLT/50). Dinky introduced the 23N toy in June 1953. Using a 1952 car as the model just doesn't sound like Binns Road to me. Far too short a time-scale. We have to remember they were producing toys, not collector models - and the whole company ethos could hardly be called up-to-the-minute. This is a 4CLT



The Dinky shows a double exhaust pipe - but the above photo is of a restored car and I don't have a left-side view of a period car. The bottom picture of my earlier post is, as David points out, a 1952 A6GCM. I don't think am doing Dinky a disfavour: the Dinky D-type came out (and in what extraordinary colours) in 1956, but is obviously the 1954 short-nose car, the DBS - again a 1954 car - in February '56. And why the did the streamliner Connaught rather than the open-wheeler is anyone's guess. Dinky's white W196 streamliner came out after the Crescent, in 1956. Incidentally, the Collector's Guide to toy Cars by Gordon Gardiner and Richard O'Neill describes the colour scheme as 'Swiss racing colours' - so your de Graffenreid theory sounds correct. But then it also describes the Ferrari as 'Argentinian racing colours'.

The Ferrari first appeared with a yellow nose (issued May 1953) - later versions for the US market had just a yellow triangle.

The HWM colour was my attempt to match the light green of the Dinky original - but I actually thought this was HWM's green. Got a period colour pic to correct me? Incidentally, that Dinky was also issued with yellow numbers, as in my restoration.

You are correct the Talbot-Lago (sometimes advertised by Dinky as a Lago-Talbot, although always stamped Talbot-Lago on the base plate) also had yellow numbers. Lord alone (now) knows why.

BTW, and before I get flamed again by David - should we be continuing this discussion in A Load Of Old Rubbish?

[MarkWill]

Hi,

If you prefer me to post the question in the "Load of Old Rubbish" thread, I will do. Actually, I will split out any Dinky-related questions in the future and place them in the LooR thread - sorry if I have trodden on any sensibilities.

[Mal9444]

Mark - it's Twin Window I'm concerned about, not me. I'll talk about dinkys any time, any where.

Sad, innit.

:

[Dutchy]

MAL, you question the lead time required for Dinky to model any particular car when discussing the Maserati but you point out the Ferrari was issued a month earlier (May 1953) and that is a 1952 car.

I am certain the Maserati is an A6GCM.

[Mal9444]

Dutchy.
I'm beginning to have my own doubts, too: having said I don't have a left-side view of the A6GCM, I then look closely at the picture I already posted and observe that one can clearly discern twin exhausts.



Here is my Dinky Maser to compare:



(with a 1/18th scale Moss Targa Florio 300 slr in the background).

Barry - I think we may have to hand this one to Dutchy - whaddya think?

[Barry Boor]

I am certain the Maserati is an A6GCM.

Really? Wow, with that nose I have always assumed a 4.CLT.

I have even painted mine as per Fangio at San Remo.

[Mal9444]

The picture a couple of posts up of the 4CLT/50 shows a single exhaust pipe. That would appear to be the clincher.

Can you post a picture of your Fangio re-paint?

[Barry Boor]

Your wish.....etc.

[David McKinney]

I was going to say it was even more like an 4CL than a 4CLT
However, Barry's 'Argentine' shot shows body curvature more along 4CLT lines
Of course, as we all know, the first A6GCM was an Argentine team 4CLT fitted with a 2-litre sportscar engine, so maybe Barry's spot on (as long as he calls it Angoulême rather than San Remo)

[Mal9444]

Lovely job, as always. Knowing you, you will presumably now simply convert the twin pipes to a single - and you're back to accuracy.

(BTW and totally off topic, I have at last begun my Dundrod project, which is also my first attempt to build a white metal kit:



modifying the wheel arch to match the state of the car during the race:




what I'm aiming for:



I'll post progress, if any and eventually, in ALOOR.)

[Dutchy]

As well as the twin exhaust pipes the give away is the shape of the radiator grille - a little bit like a teardrop whereas the 4CLT grille is much wider and rounder.
A 4CL grille would be much taller and the bonnet line correspondingly higher.

[David McKinney]

But the A6GCM's teardrop grille was much broader than on the model

[Dutchy]

Originally posted by David McKinney
But the A6GCM's teardrop grille was much broader than on the model

Agreed,but its closer to that than anything else

[RS2000]

Originally posted by Barry Boor

P.S. Crescent made a D-type and an Aston Martin in the same scale (roughly) too. I have neither but their colours were o.k. although they chose the American colours for the Aston, which were used once at Le Mans.

Wasn't the DB3S based on the Shelby car (that was used in UK events?). I also seem to recall an A Type Connaught in that series. Had most of them. "Had" being the operative word. A lesson to parents about giving away their kids' toys...