It's been advertised for as long as I can remember (Autosport / C&SC). A 1965 Gerhardt with Indy 500 history. Currently yours for £21K but still no takers.
OK it may need "restoration" rather than the more fashionable "refreshing" but for that sort of money...you could spend as much on a historic FF with a half-decent trailer.
So why isn't it snapped up ?
Unloved Indy 500 Gerhardt
Started by
bill moffat
, Nov 16 2006 09:47
15 replies to this topic
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#2
David McKinney
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Posted 16 November 2006 - 10:35
I guess no-one wants a race-car you couldn't race anywhereOriginally posted by bill moffat
So why isn't it snapped up ?
#3
yasmin
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Posted 16 November 2006 - 11:06
I was very interested in this car 6 months ago and had the history checked. The advertised history is false and misleading.
The 'real' Carl Williams car was sold at auction in 2003/4 (in it's original white colour scheme)and I believe is currently undergoing resto somewhere in the US. When I probed the vendor with some pretty hard questions he admitted it wasn't Williams' car and he unsure of it's history.
This car has gone from dealer to dealer since 1996.
Buyers beware.......
The 'real' Carl Williams car was sold at auction in 2003/4 (in it's original white colour scheme)and I believe is currently undergoing resto somewhere in the US. When I probed the vendor with some pretty hard questions he admitted it wasn't Williams' car and he unsure of it's history.
This car has gone from dealer to dealer since 1996.
Buyers beware.......
#4
Gary C
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Posted 16 November 2006 - 12:15
it['s not this one, is it? Photographed by me the other week on my mobile phone, so apologies for the quality...
#5
Gary C
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Posted 16 November 2006 - 12:16
sorry, photographed at Brooklands Museum...
#7
Gary C
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Posted 16 November 2006 - 12:39
....it's been at Brooklands for at least the last 18 months......if that's any clue?
#8
David M. Kane
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Posted 16 November 2006 - 12:55
There are Vintge Indy Car races here in the States...
#9
Peter Morley
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Posted 16 November 2006 - 16:32
Originally posted by bill moffat
It's been advertised for as long as I can remember (Autosport / C&SC). A 1965 Gerhardt with Indy 500 history. Currently yours for £21K but still no takers.
OK it may need "restoration" rather than the more fashionable "refreshing" but for that sort of money...you could spend as much on a historic FF with a half-decent trailer.
So why isn't it snapped up ?
I was wondering that.
It's unlikely to be a fake - you couldn't buy the major parts for that kind of money, let alone build one.
Not knowing the exact history, and lack of opportunity to run it, might explain the lack of interest, but you'd get your money back selling it off in pieces!
HGPCA only allow indycars upto 1961, but surely you'd find somewhere to run it - the Lotus 29 has been hillclimbed, and HSCC have some kind of open single seater class.
Or paint it in Lotus colours and stick it in a museum......
#10
Gary C
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Posted 16 November 2006 - 16:52
'and HSCC have some kind of open single seater class.'
That would be the Classic racing Cars championship.
That would be the Classic racing Cars championship.
#11
David Birchall
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Posted 17 November 2006 - 03:11
For many years there was a Gerhardt Indy car here in Vancouver, owned by the late Jim Brokensha. "I think" Jim restored it but since he died a couple of years ago after an extended illness I am not sure. If 'Gerr" is still following this forum he should be able to add something since he was pretty close to Jim for many years.
#12
Allen Brown
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Posted 17 November 2006 - 11:25
The car in the auction picture would be the 1966 Gerhardt-Ford V8 that George Walther bought for the '66 season. It was one of the first 1966 Gerhardts (there were 11 or 12 of them) and debuted at Phoenix with a 5th place.
It was used again in the early races of 1967 but was wrecked by Al Smith at Milwaukee June 1967. However, the team turns up with a #77 Gerhardt-Ford again in 1968 and one could be forgiven for thinking it was the same car. The livery on the car at Indy, its penultimate appearance, does not match the livery on the auction car but I can't see why Walther would buy a new 1968 Gerhardt only to then drop out of Indy racing for a couple of years. Maybe it was repainted later as a show car before being stored.
Allen
It was used again in the early races of 1967 but was wrecked by Al Smith at Milwaukee June 1967. However, the team turns up with a #77 Gerhardt-Ford again in 1968 and one could be forgiven for thinking it was the same car. The livery on the car at Indy, its penultimate appearance, does not match the livery on the auction car but I can't see why Walther would buy a new 1968 Gerhardt only to then drop out of Indy racing for a couple of years. Maybe it was repainted later as a show car before being stored.
Allen
#13
Allen Brown
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Posted 17 November 2006 - 13:23
After a bit more digging with Graham we can be confident that Walther had two Gerhardts. The one in the auction matches the livery of the 1966 car but a different car appeared at Indy in 1968. I can't be sure which one appeared in 1967 as I can't find a picture of the #77 from that year.
So we can't talk of "the" #77 Gerhardt. The one in the auction appears to be the 1966 Indy 500 car but it's perfectly possible that the second #77 Gerhardt also dated from 1966 in which case I'd defy anyone to say which was which.
Allen
So we can't talk of "the" #77 Gerhardt. The one in the auction appears to be the 1966 Indy 500 car but it's perfectly possible that the second #77 Gerhardt also dated from 1966 in which case I'd defy anyone to say which was which.
Allen
#14
philippe charuest
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Posted 17 November 2006 - 17:52
i guess the main reason indycar dont sell well in general with pedigree or not,its because they are useless on road racing track with ther 2 speed gearbox and asymetric setup
#15
Gerr
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Posted 17 November 2006 - 18:39
Allen,
I think the Kruse auction car/tub may have been written off after Carl Williams qualifying crash at Milwaukee, August '66. The auction car has the same livery and colour as the car Williams had at Indy that year. It has Williams named lettered on it and I don't think he drove for Wather after that crash.
Al Smith's #77 was a dark colour, probably blue.
The UK car was lettered, at one time since 1996, "Ironside Motors Spl." and "driver Geoff Ironside" in the pics I have.
Any idea who he is?
Phillippe, the UK car, as per the pics, has symetrical suspension and a ZF gearbox. I don't think it would be useless on a road racing circuit, at all......
I think the Kruse auction car/tub may have been written off after Carl Williams qualifying crash at Milwaukee, August '66. The auction car has the same livery and colour as the car Williams had at Indy that year. It has Williams named lettered on it and I don't think he drove for Wather after that crash.
Al Smith's #77 was a dark colour, probably blue.
The UK car was lettered, at one time since 1996, "Ironside Motors Spl." and "driver Geoff Ironside" in the pics I have.
Any idea who he is?
Phillippe, the UK car, as per the pics, has symetrical suspension and a ZF gearbox. I don't think it would be useless on a road racing circuit, at all......
#16
Allen Brown
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Posted 17 November 2006 - 20:39
Thanks Gerr
So the car that turned up to Trenton in Sep 66 must have been Walther's new/retubbed Gerhardt which could well be the UK car now. The auction car/tub may only be a tub which could be argued to mean that the genuine car is the UK one and the auction car is merely a second-hand component.
Just offering another perspective...
Regarding Philippe's suggestion that the car would be useless on a road course, I'm with Gerr on this. It ran symmetric suspension at Fuji so it would get a HTP in that format. Stick 4.2-litres of Ford in the back of what's basically a very well made Lotus copy and I reckon you'd have a lot of fun.
Allen
So the car that turned up to Trenton in Sep 66 must have been Walther's new/retubbed Gerhardt which could well be the UK car now. The auction car/tub may only be a tub which could be argued to mean that the genuine car is the UK one and the auction car is merely a second-hand component.
Just offering another perspective...
Regarding Philippe's suggestion that the car would be useless on a road course, I'm with Gerr on this. It ran symmetric suspension at Fuji so it would get a HTP in that format. Stick 4.2-litres of Ford in the back of what's basically a very well made Lotus copy and I reckon you'd have a lot of fun.
Allen
