52 replies to this topic

[simonlewisbooks]

I just watched footage of the famous incident between James Hunt and Mario Andretti at the 1977 Dutch GP which led to the even more famous "In Formula One we don't overtake round the outside" comment.
I must say I can see why Hunt was unhappy. He's leading the race and Mario is hounding him. Mario tries an identical round-the-outside move at Tarzan two laps in sucession. The first fails, the second leads to contact with Hunt breaking his rear suspension and Mario excuting a neat spin. Neither time does Mario get more than halfway alongside and, when the crunch comes, he more or less hooks his inside front wheel under Hunt's outside rear. It was never going to work.

Interestingly when Mario retires later in the race he and James have a 'chat' as he walks back to his pit but there's no finger pointing, no fists flying. In fact it looks quite calm and Mario looks a bit sheepish if anything.
Later this incident seemed to become much more contentious. Anyone know why? Was it just the comments in the press?

[rdmotorsport]

Hi Simon,

Regarding Mr.Hunts red mist at Zandvoort a lot of this was beefed up by the media at the time due to the fact James could be a tinder box depending what he was doing the previous evening or how his love life was at the time and he was pretty annoyed at Mario who at the time had the better and faster car plus he was American thus to James an upstart colonian! Words were exchanged but James tended to explode then calm down pretty soon afterwards but the media were there and ready for some action and what they saw was slightly different to what some of them printed and for the record I think if any blame for what I believe was a pure racing accident may be biased towards Mario.
Finish by saying both admired by me Mario as achieved everything and James on his day so fast.

Rodney Dodson.

[MonzaDriver]

Hi Simon.

I have no idea about why the accident became contentious after.
But the phrase " In Formula One we dont overtake round the outside........"
It's a phrase that deserve attention. Because James Hunt was a very intelligent person,
and a lot of time journalists did not understood what he was telling to them.
Unfortunately we never start in a Grand Prix race, so it's difficult to imagine why he said so.
For example here in Italy, Hunt was heavy criticize for his angry toward Patrese for Peterson's accident. But if you reflect deeply it was Patrese's fault.

MonzaDriver.

[Arjan de Roos]

Tarzan corner is a very interesting corner. It is not only the first on your lap around Zandvoort, but also a corner after a very long straight. A decider between the brave and faint of heart. Guarantee for great overtaking attempts: a large gravel trap necessary. Often seen as a succes factor of Zandvoort. And saidly missed at tracks used in F1 for a long time (1988-2000): hence no overtaking at all due to too fast corners after each straight.

Classically this rather big or wide hair pin was thought (and taught in racing courses) to be taken as follows. Coming past the pits exit: Brake hard as late as possible. Stay at the far left of the track. Steer in to the right at the right moment and hit the 'clipping' point at 2/3 of the turn. Then steer out to the left again, etc...
Only in F1 did the boys at the end of the seventies discover that the inside of Tarzan is not the only fast route to go through this slightly angled curve. You can also take the wider line at a higher corner speed (in a interview with Reutemann I once noted that he had concluded this when at Williams). I guess this was experimented only by the likes of Andretti (1977) and Villeneuve (1979).

[HDonaldCapps]

(1) Mario was a Racer and Racers race.

(2) The Yellow Racing Press was little different in 1977 than it is today -- which should be a depressing thought to those with starry-eyed illusions about the past.

(3) Plus, there is the factor that Mario was still considered an interloper to many in the Circus.

(4) Not sure that after "deeply reflecting" that I can point the finger at Patrese and state that it was his "fault."

[Roger Clark]

Denis Jenkinson wrote of the incident: "It's nice to know that a bit of spirit and passion has returned to Grand Prix racing after some of the 'old women's knitting circles' we used to have to sit through."

It all depends on your point of view, I suppose.

[Ralliart]

There's footage of the incident and of Hunt talking with Chapman after he got back to the pits - with a microphone nearby - in "The Phoenix" a film of the '77 F1 season. Hunt has an excellent point.

[man]

During his years as a commentator James would without hesitation mention that Ronnie was a quicker and more capable driver than Mario in 1978.

[David Shaw]

I didn't see the incident at the time and have only just seen a scratchy youtube version of the incident, but it appears to me that although Andretti was only half way alongside, he is run to the concrete curb edge of the track by Hunt who still keeps moving over.
I wouldn't expect that Andretti should have to leave the track to prevent contact when Hunt wasn't giving reasonable racing room.

[911]

I agree that Mario is less than half a car's length behind Hunt's as they both entered Tarzan, but he seems to be quicker in the second half of the turn and it could have been an opportunity for him to have over taken James at the next left hander since he would have been set up for it. Just my .02 (my opinion in this case may not even be worth that much!).

[ian senior]

Originally posted by HDonaldCapps
(3) Plus, there is the factor that Mario was still considered an interloper to many in the Circus.

[/B]

Not by 1977, surely?

[simonlewisbooks]

Interesting views chaps.

Certainly Tarzan was a fantastic corner for RACING and quite why Tilke and his like have never simply copied it yard for yard on one of their clean-sheet designs I shall never know - Magny Cours after all has corners modelled directly on Adelaide's hairpin and the old final chicane at Imola so it's been done before.

Having rewatched the incident several times I'm still of the opinion that Mario wasn't actually making the move work at the point of contact. If anything was dropping further back as the corner continued on round. I think he knew that and later realised it would have been more astute to back out and try again on the next lap. Hunt probably assumed that would happen too and kept his regular line.

There's often a view expressed by ex-drivers in TV commentaries that the leader has an unwritten right to the racing line unless the guy trying to pass is right alongside. It gets repeatedly used over the years and I think this is perhaps what Hunt was alluding to rather than simply Mario's use of the outside line per se.

I also think you are right that the press siezed on the actual quote like a pack of hunting dogs as Hunt and Andretti were such high profile drivers, with strong views and large followings. It was too good a story to leave as " a racing incident" , which is ultimately what it was. Two great drivers in close combat. If only we saw such spirit more often!

As for the Mario V Ronnie situation: I have heard that Ronnie seldom left the pits in final practice with less than half a tank of fuel on board. Given Chapman's obsession with weight that seems to speak volumes, if true.

[MonzaDriver]

Originally posted by Ralliart
There's footage of the incident and of Hunt talking with Chapman after he got back to the pits - with a microphone nearby - in "The Phoenix" a film of the '77 F1 season. Hunt has an excellent point.

Dear Ralliart,
I have clearly in mind the footage you refer to. The only words I understood are " Listen Colin...."
Could you be so kind to write what he said after? It would be great for me.
Thank you in advance.

MonzaDriver.

[Arjan de Roos]

Originally posted by simonlewisbooks
Interesting views chaps.

Certainly Tarzan was a fantastic corner for RACING and......

Correction Simon: IS a fantastic corner for RACING.

[MonzaDriver]

Originally posted by HDonaldCapps
(1) Mario was a Racer and Racers race.

(2) The Yellow Racing Press was little different in 1977 than it is today -- which should be a depressing thought to those with starry-eyed illusions about the past.

(3) Plus, there is the factor that Mario was still considered an interloper to many in the Circus.

(4) Not sure that after "deeply reflecting" that I can point the finger at Patrese and state that it was his "fault."

Ciao Donald, I really think that " with starry-eyed illusions about the past" it's myself................
but we go ahead with our discussion because the forum is for that.

1) Mario was a Racer and Racers race.

Too much America in this sentence. I remember you that it was Tarzan corner with F1, not Talladega with some strange Formula and the whole Al Unser or Andretti or Whittington family chasing each other. Plus Zandvoort it was an extremely difficult circuit.
( Sorry for the easy irony)

(3) Plus, there is the factor that Mario was still considered an interloper to many in the Circus.

And to some extent it was.
Without Chapman " aid ", I doubt very much that he would win the championship the following year. And I am sure a lot of people in this forum this think this way.

4) Not sure that after "deeply reflecting" that I can point the finger at Patrese and state that it was his "fault."

Also here too much American's racing style.
The manouvre of Patrese to overtake the whole lot, and then to jump inside the pack before the guard-rail, it's something you see many times here in Italy.............but in the proximity of the traffic lights, in the everyday's traffic, not on the main straight of Monza track.

Ciao Donald.

[flat-16]

It's not exactly illuminating, but the rather crusty clip on YouTube can be found here:

A 'racing incident' methinks.


Justin

[ensign14]

Originally posted by MonzaDriver
Without Chapman " aid ", I doubt very much that he would win the championship the following year. And I am sure a lot of people in this forum this think this way.

I dunno. Mario was on pole for his first GP, not many have ever done that. He won something like his 6th. He scored points in the Parnelli, dragged Lotus up from DNQing in 1976 to winning at season close and was almost always faster than Nilsson or Fast Ronald. And was on pole at the age of 42.

Ignoring the remainder of his stellar career, Andretti was one of the very, very fastest ever to set foot in an F1 car.

Obviously the Lotus 78/9 was the class of the field and whoever was driving it had a great shot of being Champ. But if you take that away and put Andretti in a "normally" competitive car in that era I'd bet he would have been there or thereabouts. I'd certainly put him above Peterson, Reutemann, perhaps Lauda. And with a bit more reliability he would be a double Champ.

And by the time he won the title he was in his late 30s...he might have been at his "Formula 1" peak in about 1972...

[ensign14]

Originally posted by flat-16
It's not exactly illuminating, but the rather crusty clip on YouTube can be found here:

A 'racing incident' methinks.


Justin

Interestingly, Andretti seems to be on the racing line through Tarzan. Hunt has gone tight inside to defend. Perhaps an optimistic move.

[MonzaDriver]

Originally posted by ensign14
Interestingly, Andretti seems to be on the racing line through Tarzan. Hunt has gone tight inside to defend. Perhaps an optimistic move.

Ensign 14 it's true Hunt has going tight to defend, but from middle corner onwards, it was him on the racing line. Andretti was really on the outside. Because it's the driver that make the attempt to pass, that has the responsability for a safe manouvre...............it was Andretti that did not understood the whole situation. And without to question the sportmanship of Mario.

MonzaDriver.

[HDonaldCapps]

[curmudgeon mode] I notice that it is "MonzaDriver" and not "MonzaRacer" -- or that too AMERICAN an observation to make.... ?


At the risk of violating my usual policy of avoiding discussing the ordinal nature of drivers, drivers & racers, racers, Drivers & Racers, and Racers -- which is how I generally think of them, I have always ranked Mario Andretti way up there in the small cluster at the Top. Andretti, Moss, Gurney, and Clark -- along with a small handful of others -- could driver anything anywhere anytime. As much as I genuinely liked Peterson -- and I certainly did, I always rated Andretti far ahead of Peterson -- and Andretti was leagues ahead of Hunt: again, someone I also liked. As for 1978, that is one of those discussions that is like kudzu and just seems incapable of dying away as another of those "conspiracy" issues.

Hmmm, I wonder just how good the Lotus wing cars would have been without Andretti around to develop them? There seems to be a popular notion that Andretti was just a light bulb screwed into a socket in the cockpit and who, therefore, enjoyed the fruits of the unfettered genius of Chapman & Co. since anyone could have won with the 79 -- plus, Andretti was aided by the deliberate and unwarranted restraints placed upon clearly superior Peterson who would have otherwise lapped Andretti each and every race. Or is that simply an unsophisticated "American" viewpoint which results from not truly understanding the true nature of formula one racing, something that is a given for Europeans but denied Americans? [/curmudgeon mode]

;)

[Racer.Demon]

Originally posted by simonlewisbooks
Having rewatched the incident several times I'm still of the opinion that Mario wasn't actually making the move work at the point of contact. If anything was dropping further back as the corner continued on round. I think he knew that and later realised it would have been more astute to back out and try again on the next lap. Hunt probably assumed that would happen too and kept his regular line.

Tarzan doesn't have one racing line - instead it has many options, the one as quick as the other, as pointed out by Arjan.

But I agree with Simon that Mario didn't make his move stick towards the end of the corner and should have backed out of it. Then again Hunt was counting too much on that to happen and should have left some space for Mario to actually be able to do that. So still a racing incident in my book. And being present there in '77 and seeing it happen right before my eyes I thought the same almost 30 years ago.

But I can clearly remember the headlines in the Dutch newspapers and auto magazines the following days, one of which read Andretti makes amok. So they knew who to blame back then...

[Rockford]

Three years later it happens again with Mario, who was finally getting his Lotus 81 working for once, and this time his victim was Reutemann. In the BBC commentary booth was, ofcourse, James Hunt. Here's what he says as Mario pulls the move:

Reutemann is making Andretti go the long way round. He's doing the manoeuvre that I helped him to make famous way back in 1977. He got right round the outside of him! Well.... that was a fine piece of driving - proving me wrong again because I criticised him alot for trying to do that to me and we tangled - I felt the guy on the inside could push but in fairness Reutemann is not such a hard man and I have to say Andretti is proving me wrong yet again because that was an excellent bit of overtaking and that's moved him up into 5th place.

Then Murray chips in with a comment on Andretti's age, before James, obviously not quite able to let it go, says:

I still maintain that's a difficult manoeuvre... The guy on the inside has the right to move over and he's the one who gets pushed off in the event of a contact - I think it's a pretty risky manoeuvre still.

So James is quite generous to Andretti, whilst still maintaining his own opinion on the matter. I also like the way he takes a nice dig at Reutemann - "not such a hard man" !

[David M. Kane]

If you were ever around James Hunt before he got in a race car, he was usually pretty jacked-up, usually on purpose by his crew. At the other end, after an incident he was ever more "jacked-up" so he made good material for the media with his remarks. He was extremely high strung and emotional which is very stressful on the body. This might be why he died so young from heart condition. He also was the most entertaining man I might ever met.

The reason both Mario and James were World Champions is because they were racers with very large stoves in their bellies...racing incident.

And yes Carlos is not such a hard guy, he's more the artist type in a car; but I'm sure his new bride
has quite a different opinion...

[Rockford]

Originally posted by David M. Kane
And yes Carlos is not such a hard guy, he's more the artist type in a car; but I'm sure his new bride has quite a different opinion...

Behave yourself!

[Sandeep Banerjee]

I have that video, what Colin told him was 'Couldn't you see you were holding him up..?'.. to which James was taken aback for a second and then retorted.. 'Colin, its his job to make the pass cleanly, he's a damn fast driver, all he has to do is make his way around cleanly. Would you ask your driver to move over? Would you..?' and then Colin turns away and tries to ignore him and the video cuts away to some other racing scene too. Note the quotes may not be 100% accurate but they're pretty close. Need to dig out them DVDs again.

[Jack-the-Lad]

Originally posted by HDonaldCapps
(1) Mario was a Racer and Racers race.

Jack

[scheivlak]

Originally posted by ensign14
Interestingly, Andretti seems to be on the racing line through Tarzan. Hunt has gone tight inside to defend. Perhaps an optimistic move.

As Racer.Demon says, there are several racing lines through Tarzan (though we didn't see passing on the outside that much in F1; much more in other series). Andretti is completely consistent and gives James plenty of room - simply textbook 'Tarzan on the outside line' stuff. Hunt though drives like he has the whole track for himself, maybe not expecting Mario to stick to his manoeuver (or maybe trying to intimidate him).

[RA Historian]

Originally posted by MonzaDriver
[
Without Chapman " aid ", I doubt very much that he would win the championship the following year. And I am sure a lot of people in this forum this think this way.
[/B]

Without Murray's aid, I doubt Piquet would win the championship. Without Head's aid, I doubt Jones would win the championship. Without Newey's aid, I doubt Hakkinen would win the championship. Without Newey's aid, I doubt Mansell would win the championship. And on, and on. You see what I mean?

Then there are the comments of Donald Capps in post number 20. I agree completely. Well said.

[flat-16]

Hunt would be more of a laugh to go out on the town with. Alas, I think this is the only area you could credit him with having superiority over Andretti


Justin

[ensign14]

I think Hunt is underrated as a driver. He scored points in a private March when the works team - with a driver who had massacred the F2 field - was not even close. He won a race in a Hesketh when the likes of Alan Jones struggled to qualify with it. And he was World Champion in a 4 year old car, practically ending Jochen Mass' serious Grand Prix career - a Mass who was comparatively close to Emmo, but he was barely in the same time zone as Master James...

[HDonaldCapps]

Just because I think Mario Andretti rates higher in my book should in no way be taken as being an indication that I don't think Hunt was the Real Deal -- Hunt ranks in the Racer category with me. I always thought that he and Mike Hawthorn should have been contemporaries for all the obvious reasons. I will say that for some time that the last place I expected was for James Hunt to die was outside a racing car. A true Character with Character. Helluva guy. I always thought that had he been introduced to Sprint cars at an early age.....

[flat-16]

I should add that I was having a bit of a laugh with my last post and I feel there probably is some credence to the concept that Hunt was underrated. It should be noted that I’m an immense Hunt fan (not in the waist girth sense) - few drivers have given us more entertainment, on or off circuit.

In all honesty, I would classify Mario and Hunt (as Don Capps hints) as being from different generations and therefore any comparisons are verging on the pointless really.

Even by the standards of the mid-seventies, Hunt’s approach was already looking anachronistic. Mario could be thought of as a herald of a new generation, exhibiting the focus and professionalism that would be required of future champions.

I guess it’s a tad subjective, but the last few posts in this thread illustrate how generations of drivers ‘dovetail’ together within the annals of history, a kind of ‘cross-fade’ from one generation to the next, where throwbacks from previous generations have competed against the new breed. I wonder what the next breed of F1 driver will have in store?

Unfortunately, when one looks at the current F1 circus, I think a throwback or two wouldn’t go amiss...


Justin

[HDonaldCapps]

You have to keep in mind that Mario began his racing career in the late 1950's and early 1960's, well before the beloved Hunt-the-Shunt. So, calling Mario the herald of the "new generation" is really quite funny in one way, but so true in another.

Although the "party animal" mystique still clouds much of how people perceive racing drivers up until some point in the 1970's -- I would guess, keep in mind that a dedicated few had to carry the burden for the many who weren't in that category -- such as Mario.

Curtis Turner and Our James had to make up for a lot on the party front and, generally, did so quite successfully.

Nor can you pry from my lips or fingers any stories -- all true, of course! -- of the Cadillac Motel in Florence or just who would show up in what condition at Horne's for breakfast.....

[ralt76]

Regarding the never ending Andretti vs. Peterson debate:
Mario usually out qualified Peterson in equal cars. Most if not all the set up work on the cars was done by Andretti, ie. Petrson usually ran Mario's setup. I believe to ignore this is to deny a large part of Mario's talent over Peterson. While I am an Andretti fan, I believe that if Peterson had anyone other than Mario as a team mate he may have struggled to get the best from the Lotus 78/79. Mario's approch preceded Schumacher's by molding the team around him, and seeking the best from everyone, including Chapman. Remember this was when Mario introduced lots of his Champ Car experience to F1, including the use of stagger, and especially as regards this thread, the outside pass. None of the F1 drivers had any experience of these techniques, and only Mclaren would have had experience of using stagger. But there-in lies the difference between Andretti, and Peterson. Mario would use his talent for car set-up to constantly chip away, letting the car do the work. Peterson, it seemed to me would go out and try to drive around the problem. I believe Mario's approach was the proper one to win championships. Peterson obviously could win races, but given his lack of setup skills, I wonder if he could have won a world championship. Remember he was going to team Mclaren from Lotus. Mclaren was about to embark on there least sucessful period ever. One other point, Ronnie was always more sucessful with a teamate that could handle the set-up work, leaving the driving to him. How many wins would he have scored with out Fittipaldi doing the set-up work on the Lotus 72? That said, he was a brilliant driver and none of this is meant to disparage the memory of, by all accounts a truly great guy.

[MonzaDriver]

Originally posted by HDonaldCapps
[B Or is that simply an unsophisticated "American" viewpoint which results from not truly understanding the true nature of formula one racing, something that is a given for Europeans but denied Americans? [/curmudgeon mode]

;) [/B]

Donald I was really not saying that, I was saying that if you make a contact like this, when from second place you want to became first........ he needed more experience at the time.
Or simply a wrong move, once in a while. I am sorry I reply late and not very entusiast about the discussion, but the Regazzoni's accident really put me in a strange mood.
He was a very last sportmanship driver, and it's pity it's remarks are no more with us.
I think we are really poorer now in this forum.

MonzaDriver

[MonzaDriver]

Originally posted by RA Historian
Without Murray's aid, I doubt Piquet would win the championship. Without Head's aid, I doubt Jones would win the championship. Without Newey's aid, I doubt Hakkinen would win the championship. Without Newey's aid, I doubt Mansell would win the championship. And on, and on. You see what I mean?

Then there are the comments of Donald Capps in post number 20. I agree completely. Well said.

Oh yes, but I was refering to the fact that Chapman was the owner of the team, not the designer,
and he could decide who would win or not.

MonzaDriver.

[Andretti Fan]

Mario would make no bones about the fact that he believed he was the better driver vs. Peterson, but in the same sentence, he would always speak of Ronnie with such afffection that you had to believe that the two men were truly friends, and not just friendly.

[RA Historian]

Originally posted by MonzaDriver


Oh yes, but I was refering to the fact that Chapman was the owner of the team, not the designer,
and he could decide who would win or not.

MonzaDriver.

Yes, I misunderstood your intent and thought you were referring to the designer part of the equation. My apologies.
As far as deciding who would win, we know how that works. Just ask Alan Jones about, what was it, Brazil (?) in 1981.......

[RA Historian]

Originally posted by Andretti Fan
Mario would make no bones about the fact that he believed he was the better driver vs. Peterson, but in the same sentence, he would always speak of Ronnie with such afffection that you had to believe that the two men were truly friends, and not just friendly.

Mario was indeed a very good friend of Ronnie's. They were friends off track, and Ronnie spent a lot of time at Mario's lake home in Pennsylvannia. Mario has said that Ronnie was the best friend he had in racing after Billy Foster died in 1967 or so. I believe Mario also said that after Ronnie he would never get as close to another driver. Unlike so many driver pairings these days, there was genuine affection and respect between Ronnie and Mario. (Quite the opposite of Mario and his Newman-Haas teammate in 1993 and 1994.)

[simonlewisbooks]

Originally posted by RA Historian
Unlike so many driver pairings these days, there was genuine affection and respect between Ronnie and Mario. (Quite the opposite of Mario and his Newman-Haas teammate in 1993 and 1994.)

But then Mansell was THE biggest name in racing in 92-3, no question,he was getting all the media attention,TV deals, book deals etc. and Mario was yesterday's racer/news making his way round the final turn towards retirement. Terrible for the ego of a man used to so many years of adulation I would imagine?

[David M. Kane]

Wonder what Paul Newman and Carl Haas think of Mansell looking back?

Frankly Mansell and Mario are both such fighters, both are also unbelievably brave. Having said that I know who I would be having at my dinner party...sorry Nigel.

[simonlewisbooks]

Originally posted by David M. Kane
Wonder what Paul Newman and Carl Haas think of Mansell looking back?

Haas is a businessman. He knows his team is very very unlikely to repeat the kind global coverage in that it got with Mansell in 93.
I'd imagine he looks back fondly whilst counting the dollars...

[Ross Stonefeld]

Forgive me for being too American for a moment, but while on Mansell, he always struck me as one of the few 'hard' Brits. Not really wanting to go too far down the alley of national stereotypes, but you guys havent had a proper racer in a long time.

[HDonaldCapps]

Originally posted by simonlewisbooks
But then Mansell was THE biggest name in racing in 92-3, no question,he was getting all the media attention,TV deals, book deals etc. and Mario was yesterday's racer/news making his way round the final turn towards retirement. Terrible for the ego of a man used to so many years of adulation I would imagine?

Perhaps THE biggest name on the east side of the Atlantic in racing, but....

Before 1992/1993, I merely tolerated Mansell, but after that....

[flat-16]

The concept of Mario viewing Mansell in a less-than-favourable light prompted me to try a search for more info...

Does it surprise anyone to hear that NM has no fewer than 71 Atlas threads with his name in the title?

It appears that TNF has yet to dissect Mario's reasoning for, shall we say, his 'less than warm' attitude toward his team-mate...maybe we need thread no. 72?


The Capps remark about Mario representing a new generation of professional sportsman in F1 poses some interesting questions in my mind...

I agree that Hunt was a throwback to the Hawthorn generation, but which generation would you rank someone like Clark as representing? In some aspects, he was way ahead of his time, but - unlike the modern F1 driver - it didn't seem as if F1 totally consumed his life (I guess his natural talent compensated) and he was able to devote time to activities outside of the circuit.

I feel another new thread coming on...


Justin

[Twin Window]

Originally posted by David M. Kane

Having said that I know who I would be having at my dinner party...sorry Nigel.

In my experience, Mario is disappointingly poor company around the dinner table, I'm afraid. Almost precisely fifteen years ago around eight of us from Autosport (including his biographer NSR) entertained him in London along with Michael and, by chance, I sat right opposite him.

The only thing we [a couple of colleagues and I] spoke about afterwards was the fact that he couldn't seem to remember dates nor details for anything accurately while he was relating his tales, the fact that Michael simply stared at him deferentially whenever he was talking, and that he couldn't read the menu - even with his glasses on. It was all rather disappointing, as he's such a big name and we'd been looking forward to it so much.

As an aside to the menu thing, IIRC the following season Mario had a frightening number of accidents which saw him rear-ending other cars and (I think, once) a tow-truck...

Having said all that, I'd also be saying 'sorry' to Nigel!

[David M. Kane]

Twin Window:

Actually I probably enjoy dinner with you and "the other" Nigel, Nigel Roebuck. Interestingly, NR thinks MA is fascinating. I know this is lame; but I'm a victim of reading too much Nigel Roebuck.

[Twin Window]

It's entirely understandable that Nigel has so much time for Mario because they go back quite some time, are on friendly terms, and collaborated on his post-1978 biog.

I meant no sleight on Mario by my previous remarks, as I still maintain huge respect for his achievements - it was simply a disappointing seance. In addition, I feel privileged to have known Nigel for so long, and to have been asked to do the picture research on one of his most recent books Chasing the Title.

[RA Historian]

Originally posted by simonlewisbooks


But then Mansell was THE biggest name in racing in 92-3, no question,he was getting all the media attention,TV deals, book deals etc. and Mario was yesterday's racer/news making his way round the final turn towards retirement. Terrible for the ego of a man used to so many years of adulation I would imagine?

Ego had absolutely nothing to do with it. Achievement on the track that year had nothing to do with it. What it was about was ATTITUDE. Mario was the consummate fighter, never give up, always give your all. Nigel, as I dare say we all know, only goes fast when he is motivated. Mario expressed disgust with Mansell's attitude, with Mansell either giving up completely or just motoring around when he felt the car was not a winner. Something Andretti never did! Mario also took a dim view of Mansell's theatrics, of having to be pulled gasping from the car after a race just to get the camera on him and to show the world how he, Nigel Mansell, carried that pig of a car on his back the entire distance. No, Mario was not upset with Mansell for the reasons Simon mentions, but rather for the insufferable ego and over the top melodramatic theatrics that Mansell did as a matter of course.

In the interest of full disclosure I must say that Mario Andretti wrote the forward for one of my books and as such I do admit a preference for Mario.

[Arjan de Roos]

Originally posted by flat-16

Does it surprise anyone to hear that NM has no fewer than 71 Atlas threads with his name in the title?

I feel another new thread coming on...


Justin

Only 71?? Try Jim Clark, Gurney or Graham Hill!!

Of course the Andretti - Mansell - Haas thing is something that belongs in another thread. But as a fan I must say that both Mansell and Andretti were in my experience quite distant, even arrogant to the fans. Quite the opposite to Hunt.