18 replies to this topic

[Runar]

Hi all

We in the "Grand Prix Legends" -simulator community are now planning to run a "1967 40th Anniversary World Championship " to commemorate a great year in F1 history and on which the game was built.

To do it as close to the original season as possible, we asked FIA for the rules and regulations of the day but apparently only the technical regulations of that year was found. A copy of the 1969 sporting regs were however located and claimed to be practically the same as 67.

But the regulations are very vague and must miss something as there are no descriptions concerning flags, false start penalties, overtaking, complaints procedure and these things which would be of interest to us.

So the question is if anybody here can remember what were some of the rules and help us get a better picture it would be appreciated.

Here are the technical regulations of 1967 and sporting code of 1969 (save as)

[Ray Bell]

The only one on your list that really should make any difference is the 'false start'... it was a standard one minute penalty those days for jumping the start.

However, here's something to consider. If a one minute penalty applies to car A, car B wins the race with Car A 58s behind in second place on a circuit with a lap time around 1m15, no car that's lapped can beat car A even if it's within a minute on the road.

[RTH]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
The only one on your list that really should make any difference is the 'false start'... it was a standard one minute penalty those days for jumping the start.

However, here's something to consider. If a one minute penalty applies to car A, car B wins the race with Car A 58s behind in second place on a circuit with a lap time around 1m15, no car that's lapped can beat car A even if it's within a minute on the road.

Be nice today, if they would do away with all these soul less red lights and bring back a starter in a suit and a bowler hat dropping the national flag from the top of a step ladder !

[ian senior]

Originally posted by RTH


Be nice today, if they would do away with all these soul less red lights and bring back a starter in a suit and a bowler hat dropping the national flag from the top of a step ladder !

The Gallic equivalent, of course, would be to bring back Toto Roche.

[Arturo Pereira]

I guess the rules were quite simple because they did not hire lawyers to make them. Nowadays ......

[RTH]

Originally posted by ian senior


The Gallic equivalent, of course, would be to bring back Toto Roche.

When you google Toto Roche.....what do you get.............our own Don Capps !!

http://atlasf1.autos...mon/mirror.html

[HDonaldCapps]

Little did we know just how much we would ever miss the delights of such folks as dear ol' Toto and Tex Hopkins -- bookends of the extremes (low to high, respectively) when it came to gents getting a race underway.

[MonzaDriver]

Originally posted by RTH


Be nice today, if they would do away with all these soul less red lights and bring back a starter in a suit and a bowler hat dropping the national flag from the top of a step ladder !

Right-on.
So we dont have to see this sad thing of the the red light to turn on.........black, instead of green.

MonzaDriver.

[ian senior]

Originally posted by HDonaldCapps
Little did we know just how much we would ever miss the delights of such folks as dear ol' Toto and Tex Hopkins -- bookends of the extremes (low to high, respectively) when it came to gents getting a race underway.

Ah yes, Tex Hopkins, another man who knew how to wave a flag. I always remember him being described as "lavender suited". Did he always wear such a colourful suit?

[Vitesse2]

Getting back on topic:

The technical regs are from the famous/infamous Appendix J.

The 1969 championship regulations are copied from the 1969 Yellow Book. I also have the 1968 one (don't the FIA have a copy?) The text is pretty much the same, although the General Prescriptions page isn't there (that was extensively revised and expanded in later years). Nor is the section headed "Common organizing conditions for World Championship events". There is also an Article 6 in the manufacturers' championship, defining a "make" - this is expanded on as Article 1 of the General Prescriptions in 1969.

The implication must surely be that in 1967 and 1968 individual organisers were still free to do their own thing?

In 1968 the final paragraph of Art 3 reads:

"The events counting for the World Championship must compulsorily cover a minimum distance of 300kms, but must not exceed 400kms."

Other than that, the text in 1968 is identical.

[HDonaldCapps]

Originally posted by ian senior
Ah yes, Tex Hopkins, another man who knew how to wave a flag. I always remember him being described as "lavender suited". Did he always wear such a colourful suit?

Yes. And it was indeed lavender. Overlooked is that Hopkins was actually very good at starting races. More than a few of the Euro-types and Euro-wantabees seemed to look down their nose at Hopkins, but few of them realized just how good his technique was. Plus, he had that touch of showmanship which added to the spectacle of an event. And motor racing is -- or perhaps to be more accurate, was -- a spectacle.

Thanks in great part to the "Grand Prix Legends" game, there are probably those who missed out on that era who at least get a "small" taste of it.

[Runar]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
The only one on your list that really should make any difference is the 'false start'... it was a standard one minute penalty those days for jumping the start.

This was not in the regs I got from FIA and something I didn't know. The simulator penalizes jump starts with a stop go in the pits though.

Originally posted by Vitesse2
The 1969 championship regulations are copied from the 1969 Yellow Book. I also have the 1968 one (don't the FIA have a copy?) The text is pretty much the same, although the General Prescriptions page isn't there (that was extensively revised and expanded in later years). Nor is the section headed "Common organizing conditions for World Championship events". There is also an Article 6 in the manufacturers' championship, defining a "make" - this is expanded on as Article 1 of the General Prescriptions in 1969.

The implication must surely be that in 1967 and 1968 individual organisers were still free to do their own thing?

In 1968 the final paragraph of Art 3 reads:

"The events counting for the World Championship must compulsorily cover a minimum distance of 300kms, but must not exceed 400kms."

Other than that, the text in 1968 is identical.

I was suspecting there was something lacking in what FIA sent over and that they surely must have something for 67 and 68.

But where would the rules for flags and false starts etc be I wonder..

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by Runar
This was not in the regs I got from FIA and something I didn't know. The simulator penalizes jump starts with a stop go in the pits though.

At which point you're departing from reality. The one minute penalty was simply added to the driver's time. So as a theoretical example, if driver A jumped the start and led throughout, he would lose to driver B if driver B was less than one minute behind him on the road.

Originally posted by Runar
I was suspecting there was something lacking in what FIA sent over and that they surely must have something for 67 and 68.

But where would the rules for flags and false starts etc be I wonder..

Probably all in the local regs. My feeling is that at this time the FIA were attempting to unify the regulations for racing: over the years individual countries had evolved their own rules - often thanks to individual incidents in particular events. As an example, see this very complicated thread regarding the Beltoise/Giunti incident, particularly the first 15 posts.

http://forums.autosp...&threadid=69822

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Vitesse2
At which point you're departing from reality. The one minute penalty was simply added to the driver's time. So as a theoretical example, if driver A jumped the start and led throughout, he would lose to driver B if driver B was less than one minute behind him on the road.....

Though it couldn't happen in a GP because of lap length, this doesn't apply if the second car is lapped...

In other words, if driver A jumps the start and laps the field, and the lap time is 54 seconds and the second car is within a second or six as he crosses the line, it simply doesn't matter. Lapped is lapped.

More to the point, as I described earlier, no car that completes fewer laps than the car with the penalty can beat it. So if our start-jumper finishes second and only just shy of being lapped by the winner, then he's second even though five other cars might be within a minute behind him. As long as they were lapped he's beaten them.

Which raises another rule. Just as there was a minimum race distance, there was a minimum lap length for WDC races. Monaco was allowed despite this rule, but it was just over two miles, from memory.

[HDonaldCapps]

Probably all in the local regs. My feeling is that at this time the FIA were attempting to unify the regulations for racing: over the years individual countries had evolved their own rules - often thanks to individual incidents in particular events.

It is apparent that during the 1967 period and rolling into forward into the following seasons that there was much going on behind the scenes with the CSI, the clubs or organizers, and the teams in the form of the F1CA. It was pretty much a three-cornered spat at that point, each group being more concerned with its own interests (and rice bowls) than making alliances and piling on the other party. The GPDA was mixed into this as well, but that is another story, as they say.

Beneath the happy public face, it was a can of worms.

[Vitesse2]

Flags - again from the 1968 Yellow Book.

Flag signals - The use of the signalling flags at the disposal of each post shall be under the responsibility of the post chief or his deputy. These flags are the following:

National Flag: Signal of race start.

Blue Flag: Another competitor is following you very closely and may or is about to overtake you.

White Flag: A service car is on the circuit.

Yellow Flag: Danger - no overtaking.

Yellow Flag with vertical red stripes: Oil spilt on the circuit.

Red Flag: (At the exclusive disposal of the Clerk of the Course) Complete and immediate stop for all cars.

Black Flag with white number: The car bearing the number indicated must stop at its refuelling pit.

Black and white chequered Flag: Signal of end of race.

[Runar]

Originally posted by Vitesse2

At which point you're departing from reality. The one minute penalty was simply added to the driver's time. So as a theoretical example, if driver A jumped the start and led throughout, he would lose to driver B if driver B was less than one minute behind him on the road.

I get what the one minute penalty means, just saying that the 1967 driving simulator we're using has deviated from the original format which is useful to know.

Originally posted by Vitesse2
Flags - again from the 1968 Yellow Book.

Thanks a lot for the flag rules, the one about overtaking or not during yellow was the one causing the most confusion. Also very interesting thread about the Gunti Beltoise incident.

I wasn't sure for a moment if the flag rules varied from place to place as you mentioned that each venue had their local rules to go by, but I suppose these were common and not deviated from.

But would be possible to have a look at the yellow book from 68?

Does it say anything about complaint procedures?

Originally posted by HDonaldCapps
Beneath the happy public face, it was a can of worms.

It still looks to be a can of worms, just without the happy face..

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by Runar

Does it say anything about complaint procedures?

Not as such. It does mention the appeal procedure, but what you really need for that is a copy of the International Sporting Code.

[Runar]

Ok thanks for the info. Now I've contacted FIA again for the 'yellow book' and the 'international sporting code' that you mention - hopefully they can be dug up..