56 replies to this topic

[RDM]

I wonder what the sweaty jumper-knitter is motivated by for his doom-and-gloom forecasts for McLaren and Ferrari?

http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/56121

Might it be anything to do with the fact Flav's "only" got a rookie and Fisi now, when the objects of his anger have a rookie and Alonso, or Massa + Kimi this year? I'm no McLaren fan, but Flav's "last page of the book" comment, aimed at the Woking squad, is laced with nastiness, rather than simply competitive zeal.

Is this an example of "Jealousy leads to anger.. anger leads to hate"?

Flav, please don't get too bitter that you've been royally screwed by McLaren. Remember... hate leads to violence!

Now, maybe Flav will have the last laugh (as, to be fair, he has for the last 2 years) and once again collect the (drivers, anyway) title, but I suspect his unnecessarily detrimental comments will result in either McLaren or Ferrari victories taste even sweeter.

Or should we all be grateful for Mr Liquid-Pits upping the ante, and add least injecting a bit of interest into the off-season?

[Ghostrider]

Flavio is usually pretty accurate.

Of course he also knows that Renault will be weaker without Alonso.

[Limits]

I see nothing worth being upset about there. McLaren IS at the last page of excuses and Ferrari HAVE lost key persons. If anything, he puts more pressure on himself and Renault.

[novocaine]

his comments are more intelligent than your thread

[Kooper]

Originally posted by Limits
I see nothing worth being upset about there. McLaren IS at the last page of excuses and Ferrari HAVE lost key persons. If anything, he puts more pressure on himself and Renault.

and Fisico. This will be GFs last "page" for excuses also should he not deliver.

[Limits]

Originally posted by Kooper


and Fisico. This will be GFs last "page" for excuses also should he not deliver.

Hehe, he has started on a new book already ;)

[Orin]

Originally posted by RDM

Might it be anything to do with the fact Flav's "only" got a rookie and Fisi now, when the objects of his anger have a rookie and Alonso, or Massa + Kimi this year? I'm no McLaren fan, but Flav's "last page of the book" comment, aimed at the Woking squad, is laced with nastiness, rather than simply competitive zeal.

Ignoring the fact that "last page" is downright silly - are McLaren supposed to return their company to the lending library if they fail to win this year? - he does have a point about McLaren's chequered performances of late (and 2006 was especially bad), and also a point about the huge changes at Ferrari. However, I'm amazed that he's going on the offensive given that the Renault lead driver for 2007 has repeatedly made the twice double championship winning team's cars look like alsorans. I suspect he might regret these words in twelve months time.

[Maldwyn]

Are Jose Mourinho and Flavio Briatore one and the same person? I think we should be told

Both play the media game very well.

[howardt]

Yeah, I'm with you RDM. I read the article and first of all took Flava's comments at face value, but I think there's something a bit more spiteful behind them. Guess we'll see when the flag drops, but it looks like he's predicting (without offering any rationale) a really tough year for those teams who are on course to beat renault.
Like he wants to play the psychology game but isn't holding any cards. I'm having a flashback to Kevin Keegan's rant when he was Newcastle manager.

[F1 Tor.]

I'd be more worried if Flavio WASN'T making these comments.

[RDM]

Originally posted by novocaine
his comments are more intelligent than your thread

Then how far down the scale are your comments?

[Clatter]

What is there in those comments to get upset about? I don't think they are particular nasty, just a simple statement of fact in answer to a journos questions.

[carbonfibre]

Indeed can't find anything wrong with this comments. And besides that it's Flavio so it would be even more strange if he didnt have anything to say.

[Garagiste]

Sounds to me like he was addressing the press, but talking to Fisi.

[LostProphet]

I love this board

1. Random journo bugs PersonX for a soundbite
2. PersonX gives journo soundbite
3. Journo publishes soundbite during a time when there is little to no news.
4. Said soundbite at least indicates some of the rivalry that will exist between the teams and gives a small insight into someone's opinions - someone who works within F1 let's remember
5. Random Peon creates a thread needlessly insulting someone they likely haven't even met and blowing said soundbite out of all proportions.

Seriously would you rather we have NO news during the off-season? I'm sure all the team managers and drivers would LOVE to have no intrusions into their lives, but I for one look forward to the odd soundbite during what is a very dry period for news.

[Limits]

Originally posted by Garagiste
Sounds to me like he was addressing the press, but talking to Fisi.

That thought crossed my mind as well.

[MPea3]

I think his comments are entirely reasonable. Ferrari stands to not be as effective without MS & Ross Braun, and I don't think McLaren is automatically going to be competitive because Alonso's on board. I'll say this, if McLaren and Alonso DO win it all, then ALonso has really cemented his legacy, and at a very young age.

What he doesn't say of course, is that his own team is in a equally shaky position. Of course, any time you'e on top there's only one way to go.

Every F1 season has some surprises, and I wonder who the big surprise this year will be. Will Honda's late season homologation of their engine yield big results? Will Toyota's sharing of information with Williams help take them toward the top? Will BMW muscle it's way up front with a strong engine, their super computer/wind tunnel, and an aggressive young driver? Or will Red Bull, with Newey on board, lift a leg in the other team's kennels?

I think it's going to be one of the more interesting years in recent F1 history.

[HP]

Originally posted by MPea3
I'll say this, if McLaren and Alonso DO win it all, then ALonso has really cemented his legacy, and at a very young age.

Interesting comment. As soon as I read it, MS moving from Benetton (Briatore) to Ferrari came to mind. If the same thing happens it really helps Alonsos' reputation.

[Uxoros]

What I find really weak in Flavio's statement is that if you take the three big teams at the moment, I'd rather care about about Renault the most.

[yr]

Originally posted by MPea3
I'll say this, if McLaren and Alonso DO win it all, then ALonso has really cemented his legacy, and at a very young age.

And if they dont win anything together, would you then (gasp) draw the conclusion that there never was any legacy, just best car/team for two years for FA?

Oh, you wont? well, at leat Alonso is in a win/win situation then.

[MPea3]

Originally posted by yr


And if they dont win anything together, would you then (gasp) draw the conclusion that there never was any legacy, just best car/team for two years for FA?

Oh, you wont? well, at leat Alonso is in a win/win situation then.

I agree with you. No, of course I wouldn't think less of his 2 championships with Renault shoudl McLaren not do well this year, but if they win it all, then he's gone up a notch in my book. All WDC's are great drivers in my book, it's quite an accomplishment to pull it off, but to go to another team and pull it off again right away would move him to another level.

[HP]

Originally posted by yr


And if they dont win anything together, would you then (gasp) draw the conclusion that there never was any legacy, just best car/team for two years for FA?

Oh, you wont? well, at leat Alonso is in a win/win situation then.

Much like Mika Hakkinen. With the difference that Mika seems to be a bit easier going than Fernando. In any case Mika not making it three in a row didn't lessen people's opinion of him. So why should it be an issue with FA, especially since he is regarded as one of the two remaining top drivers in F1?

[clampett]

There is no Fisi-reference in this article dear detractor friends. Mclaren-Mercedes always had to make excuses since 1998, why they are losing. This Briatore article is not more but a simple mind game with ol' friend Ron Dennis.

[yr]

Originally posted by MPea3


I agree with you. No, of course I wouldn't think less of his 2 championships with Renault shoudl McLaren not do well this year, but if they win it all, then he's gone up a notch in my book. All WDC's are great drivers in my book, it's quite an accomplishment to pull it off, but to go to another team and pull it off again right away would move him to another level.

Well, I was exaggareting a bit, as you propably guessed, of course two WDC´s are great achievement and nothing can take that away from FA now, no matter how he does in future. It´s just that I find it very annoying how many fans of Fernando try to put him in a win/win situation and Kimi in the lose/lose situation.

Mclaren is supposedly underdog for next sason so winning will "cement FA`s legacy" and losin will be only what was to be expected, certainly not Fernandos fault. At the same time, Kimi goes to a team that is favourite and thus nothing but WDC will do (preferbly a dominant one) even then it will be "well, he had best car and team by far, nothing extra ordinary here", if he doesnt win the title it would be his fault alone.

[F1 Tor.]

Originally posted by MPea3


I agree with you. No, of course I wouldn't think less of his 2 championships with Renault shoudl McLaren not do well this year, but if they win it all, then he's gone up a notch in my book. All WDC's are great drivers in my book, it's quite an accomplishment to pull it off, but to go to another team and pull it off again right away would move him to another level.

Why do they have to "win it all?" I would be very impressed if McLaren won 5-6 races in 2007. It would make for a huge improvement and would solidify Alonso as one of the best at such a young age. I don't get these all or nothing scenarios. Winning again after scoring zero wins last year takes time. I think Mac has the resources to do it, but I think it will take a Herculean effort to pry both championships this year. I guess we'll soon find out.

[MPea3]

Originally posted by F1 Tor.


Why do they have to "win it all?" I would be very impressed if McLaren won 5-6 races in 2007. It would make for a huge improvement and would solidify Alonso as one of the best at such a young age. I don't get these all or nothing scenarios. Winning again after scoring zero wins last year takes time. I think Mac has the resources to do it, but I think it will take a Herculean effort to pry both championships this year. I guess we'll soon find out.

Well of course they don't have to win it all. I expect to be impressed with Alonso even if he loses, just as I was with Schumacher in the years he didn;t have the car to easily carry him to the title. But come on now... if he goes to McLaren and DOES win it all, wouldn't that be an absolutely extraordinary achievement? 3WDC in a row with 2 different teams? Do you not think that would raise his legacy up a considerable notch? That's all I'm saying.

[carbonfibre]

Sure but it all depends on how the Mclaren is next year. If it's suddenly above the rest then it's not as big ofcourse.

[yr]

Originally posted by HP
Much like Mika Hakkinen. With the difference that Mika seems to be a bit easier going than Fernando. In any case Mika not making it three in a row didn't lessen people's opinion of him. So why should it be an issue with FA, especially since he is regarded as one of the two remaining top drivers in F1?

Of course Mika didnt change team after his two WDC´s, but I respect any WDC let alone double WDC, so not winning 3rd or 4th is irrelevant to me. I just think that people pay too much attention of swapping the team and then winning title again (Mclaren might be dominant team regardless if FA was there or not for next several years). If that new design team in Mclaren produce really dominant car then any decent driver would take few WDCs with it, if they produce a total lemon then no driver on earth could fight even for podium finishes never mind titles with it. Thats motor sport for you, but for some unkown reason Alonso fans are trying to give credit for Mclarens possible progress already to FA and yet in the same time leave door open for possible failures, so they could say if there will be no success that it was Mclarens fault, team failed, not Alonso.

[Lifew12]

Mclaren have got through the book pretty quickly if this is the last page - little over a year ago they completed a season in which they won more races than any other team.

I agree with flav to an extent; he's always worth a soundbite.

[kismet]

This is off-topic but what the heck... I think some people tend to overplay the McLaren-suck-because-they-didn't-win-a-race-in-2006, it-will-take-time-to-recover-from-a-slump-like-that card. Relatively speaking, McLaren's 2006 wasn't any worse than their 2002 or 2004 - arguably it was way better. They came pretty close to not winning a race in 2004 only to be quite good in 2005. They were also rather close to not winning anything in 2002 only to be quite good in 2003. With a little bit of luck this way or that way they could've gone winless in 2004 and won a couple of races in 2006. Just a little reminder for those who think McLaren reached some previously unseen levels of suckitude last season.

[F1 Tor.]

Originally posted by MPea3


Well of course they don't have to win it all. I expect to be impressed with Alonso even if he loses, just as I was with Schumacher in the years he didn;t have the car to easily carry him to the title. But come on now... if he goes to McLaren and DOES win it all, wouldn't that be an absolutely extraordinary achievement? 3WDC in a row with 2 different teams? Do you not think that would raise his legacy up a considerable notch? That's all I'm saying.

I know exactly what you're saying and I agree. I think it would be an extraordinary accomplishment if that were to happen. Anyway, I wasn't implying the "win it all" statement directly to you, I just happened to quote you to get my argument going.

[yr]

Originally posted by MPea3

3WDC in a row with 2 different teams? Do you not think that would raise his legacy up a considerable notch? That's all I'm saying.

Mclaren driver was runner up for WDC in 03, wasnt in 04, was in 05, wasnt 06, ...

Like in a basic intellectual test where you need to continue locigal trend, how would you continue the list above?

Here´s a simple version of next season:

1. Mclaren builds a car.

a) it will be fastest and reliable.
b) it will be slow but reliable.
c) it will be fast but unreliable.
d) it will be slow and unreliable.

2. Alonso doesnt build a car.

3. Alonso drives a car.

Now if the (1. a) is what happens, then Alonso will win in all likelyhood his third WDC in a row.
If (1. b,c or d) happens, then Alnso wont win the champpionship.

I myself tend to lean on 1.b or to 1. c because thats the traditional Mclaren vehicle, but you never know, maybe this newdesign team can actually build a good car. What has that got to do with FA BTW?

[lukywill]

briatore is scared by the alonso move. he knew it long time ago but only now he realizes this move. a lost person. berger and alesi come to my mind.

[RDM]

Originally posted by LostProphet
I love this board

1. Random journo bugs PersonX for a soundbite
2. PersonX gives journo soundbite
3. Journo publishes soundbite during a time when there is little to no news.
4. Said soundbite at least indicates some of the rivalry that will exist between the teams and gives a small insight into someone's opinions - someone who works within F1 let's remember
5. Random Peon creates a thread needlessly insulting someone they likely haven't even met and blowing said soundbite out of all proportions.

Seriously would you rather we have NO news during the off-season? I'm sure all the team managers and drivers would LOVE to have no intrusions into their lives, but I for one look forward to the odd soundbite during what is a very dry period for news.

In many ways, fair comment. I tend to be of the "nothing to see here" persuasion. What's a person supposed to do when a journo asks him a question?

However, my point really is: would Flav had said the same if Ron had not bagged Alonso at Flav's expense?

My belief is that he would not have, in which case his comment is made from spite rather than sober assesment.

Would I want Flav to keep his opinions to himself? Of course not! It makes for good copy, and gives us something to read in the off season...but that doesn't mean we shouldn't be prepared to laugh at him when he appears to make comments that are both driven by jealousy/fear and are, quite possibly, very likely to backfire fairly spectacularly.

And make no mistake, I'd rather see Renault succeed more than McLaren (even if Ferrari are the object of my affections).

[lukywill]

quê?

[Clatter]

Originally posted by RDM
However, my point really is: would Flav had said the same if Ron had not bagged Alonso at Flav's expense?

Would he have been asked the same question(s) had FA not moved to Mac? I would think not.

[Mauseri]

Renault seem to be talking a lot recently. Another interview and Kova talks about taking the fight on Alonso and Raikkonen.

[Limits]

Originally posted by micra_k10
Renault seem to be talking a lot recently. Another interview and Kova talks about taking the fight on Alonso and Raikkonen.

They are the current champs. Who is more interesting to talk to for a journalist? I have not seen Renault calling to any press conferences lately. They would be quite unfriendly if they did not talk to the press that calls them...? Or?

[VoidNT]

We are producing wrong conclusions, I'm afraid. Liuzzi says something not so pleasant on Bourdais = he is scared of him; Briatore talks about possible problems for Ferrari and McLaren = he is afraid of them, etc. Come on, they are free to talk with the press, and when some journalist approaches, they just answer the question, that's all. It's not like everybody in F1 are so insecure that at every occasion they run to the press with wet undies to say something compulsive and stupid

[jokuvaan]

TS, Flavio in Italian tv:

"More likely/certain I would win by going politics than with Fisi"

[Spunout]

I suppose the original language of the interview was Italian?

This is from ITV-F1

“It will be a tough year for them."

“They have always had fantastic drivers like [Kimi] Raikkonen, and they always announce them early to demonstrate they’re changing."

“But this year the book of excuses has come to its last page.”

But the another translation I found was different. There Flav talks about McLaren (always) announcing themselves as winners before the season starts. And he says "McLaren will have another tough year". And I suppose from the perspective of Flav, tough year = no WDC or WCC? After all, 03 and 05 weren´t so bad.

So, which translation is correct?

[Limits]

Originally posted by Spunout
So, which translation is correct?

Does it matter? You have to really hate Flav to get upset about any of them and if you do hate him that much it does not matter what he says.

[Spunout]

Originally posted by Limits

Does it matter? You have to really hate Flav to get upset about any of them and if you do hate him that much it does not matter what he says.

I don´t understand how this is related to hating or not hating Flav. I was wondering if he has some reasons to expect particularly difficult year for McLaren, or whether his comments were simply in the tone of "aww, they always talk...they won´t beat us next season either"

[Sakae]

Originally posted by Uxoros
What I find really weak in Flavio's statement is that if you take the three big teams at the moment, I'd rather care about about Renault the most.

Who are the three big teams you speak off, if I may ask, and what qualifies them as "big"?

[HP]

Originally posted by yr
I myself tend to lean on 1.b or to 1. c because thats the traditional Mclaren vehicle, but you never know, maybe this newdesign team can actually build a good car. What has that got to do with FA BTW?

How much influence designers do have on reliability in Uncle Ron's world? Next to none, if we are to believe their PR.

Most of their mechanical problems of recent years have been announced being manufacturing flaws (except by those folks who call Kimi a car breaker). If the info from McLaren is accurate, then a new design team will not change them, except they build a truck, meaning building a car in which each part is designed much stronger than it really needs to be, and thus the car becomes way too heavy.

So IMO McLaren's challenges for this year are nothing new. It will be really news if they eventually get over them and build a fast and reliable car.



BTW: Can't see what's so outrageous about Flavios' comments mentioned in the first post. Briatore just didn't talk about his teams challenges, but then he might not have been asked about it. They defenatly have their own issues, more driver related. Still not sure what they were thinking by signing Fisi and Kovalaianen, and then late in the game announcing it's a priority for them to hire Kimi.

[Limits]

Originally posted by HP
Still not sure what they were thinking by signing Fisi and Kovalaianen, and then late in the game announcing it's a priority for them to hire Kimi.

I agree partly, but who should they have hired? JPM? Bourdais? Webber? Kimi was not going to happen, but they tried anyway hoping to get lucky. Trulli? Not likely ;) Villenueve? No way. Ralf, Nick... Well, let's face it - of the current drivers the only ones better than Fisi were only contracted. Maybe they could have made a charge at Button, but his contract is propably quite tight this time. Of the rookies, I think Kovalainen is one of the best bets, specially considering that Hamilton was tagged for Mercedes since long. Fisi IS fast at times and he has experience. He might give Heikki the support needed for a championship challenge

[SeanValen]

Originally posted by LostProphet
I love this board

1. Random journo bugs PersonX for a soundbite
2. PersonX gives journo soundbite
3. Journo publishes soundbite during a time when there is little to no news.
4. Said soundbite at least indicates some of the rivalry that will exist between the teams and gives a small insight into someone's opinions - someone who works within F1 let's remember
5. Random Peon creates a thread needlessly insulting someone they likely haven't even met and blowing said soundbite out of all proportions.

Seriously would you rather we have NO news during the off-season? I'm sure all the team managers and drivers would LOVE to have no intrusions into their lives, but I for one look forward to the odd soundbite during what is a very dry period for news.

Everyone needs to discuss something, . F1 drought does it to many.;)

[Spunout]

Originally posted by Limits

I agree partly, but who should they have hired? JPM? Bourdais? Webber? Kimi was not going to happen, but they tried anyway hoping to get lucky. Trulli? Not likely ;) Villenueve? No way. Ralf, Nick... Well, let's face it - of the current drivers the only ones better than Fisi were only contracted. Maybe they could have made a charge at Button, but his contract is propably quite tight this time. Of the rookies, I think Kovalainen is one of the best bets, specially considering that Hamilton was tagged for Mercedes since long. Fisi IS fast at times and he has experience. He might give Heikki the support needed for a championship challenge

I am even more puzzled with McLaren. They choosed to wait for Kimi (to change his mind???) until all the good & experienced drivers were hired by the other teams - ending up with choosing between rookie and Pedro, who wasn´t even close of his teammate in 2006. I know Ron has high hopes with Hamilton, but it isn´t like him to hire rookies. Especially since Lewis would have been more than happy with "test in 2007, race in 2008" type of contract.

[Mauseri]

Originally posted by VoidNT
We are producing wrong conclusions, I'm afraid. Liuzzi says something not so pleasant on Bourdais = he is scared of him; Briatore talks about possible problems for Ferrari and McLaren = he is afraid of them, etc. Come on, they are free to talk with the press, and when some journalist approaches, they just answer the question, that's all. It's not like everybody in F1 are so insecure that at every occasion they run to the press with wet undies to say something compulsive and stupid

They surely **** their pants when journalist comes to ask questions. They are scared of people behind the web judging them as soon as possible, bashing, and putting down, just if they say 1 word wrong. That's why we most of the time hear the boring politically correct corporate answers.

[Limits]

Originally posted by Spunout


I am even more puzzled with McLaren. They choosed to wait for Kimi (to change his mind???) until all the good & experienced drivers were hired by the other teams

Which drivers are you talking about?