42 replies to this topic

[Taxi]

ok. I go to the karts now and then. The question is I don't like to be behind no one that goes with me. It's some kind of Ayrton Senna complex without the talent. Usualy i get the best of my mates but there is one or two that make work hard especialy in the rain . I know it's only go karts but I would like to know if there is any site or video or whatever that can give me tips to go faster.

thanks!

[Limits]

-Don't slide wide
-Don't go wider than necessary (weak engine can not always profit from using all of the track)
-Lean OUTWARDS instead of inwards. That helps the kart lifting the inner wheel so it can turn.
-Follow your faster friends and try to figure out were they are faster. Then try to figure out why. Copy their lines.
-Try to minimize the time when you are neither decelerating or accelerating
-Try to minimize the time when you are decelerating (braking)
-Experiment with different ways to brake (not only the pedal)
-Make sure you do not brake too much.

Actually, after reaching a certain level, I think that you will find that it is not going fast that is a problem, most time are lost in the slow parts. Optimal corner entry speed is the key. Dead easy ;)

[Taxi]

Thanks mate!

in the dry i usualy get to 1,5 sec off the track record. I think it's decent. I have a doubt: is it true that if you keep your feet in the throtle pedal while braking the car loses power and speed?

[Limits]

Originally posted by Taxi
Thanks mate!

in the dry i usualy get to 1,5 sec off the track record. I think it's decent. I have a doubt: is it true that if you keep your feet in the throtle pedal while braking the car loses power and speed?

No, it is what they want to do to so their karts lasts longer
Of course, if you keep the throttle on so much that the braking suffers, it is no good. Remember that in theory you have nothing to gain with using the pedals at the same time (they work on the same, stiff, axle), but in reality you can keep the engine revs up and make respond quicker and you can also minimize the transmission transgressions, smoother transition from deceleration to acceleration.

And - you usually go on throttle earlier with a kart than you would with a car that has a differential.

[Just]

Originally posted by Limits
-Lean OUTWARDS instead of inwards. That helps the kart lifting the inner wheel so it can turn.

This is interesting. Does that really help? So if you're taking say a slow left corner, you should lean to the right? How much leaning is recommended? (Perhaps there are pictures or videos out there?) And does lifting a wheel actually help - I'd have thought doing so would slow you down?

[Ross Stonefeld]

Originally posted by Limits
-Try to minimize the time when you are neither decelerating or accelerating

I say increase this. Karts cant accelerate worth a damn. They dont brake particularly well either. Keep increasing your cornering speed, even if you cant get to the gas until you're almost out of the corner.

[Mauseri]

Originally posted by Just
This is interesting. Does that really help? So if you're taking say a slow left corner, you should lean to the right? How much leaning is recommended? (Perhaps there are pictures or videos out there?) And does lifting a wheel actually help - I'd have thought doing so would slow you down?

The rear axle is stiff. If the weight is on both reartyres it doesnt like to turn. The cars are crap

[Ross Stonefeld]

It's more to do with not having a differential imo.

[MikeTekRacing]

or the lack of it to be more precise.

you can not accelerate because the inner wheel cannot turn as fast. in car, that is not needed, there is a differential, the outer wheel can spid faster
in a kart, you need to lift the inner wheel, to allow it to spin faster and faster

hope that was clear

[Limits]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld


I say increase this. Karts cant accelerate worth a damn. They dont brake particularly well either. Keep increasing your cornering speed, even if you cant get to the gas until you're almost out of the corner.

It still needs to be minimized. Since a (specially a weak rental) kart does not really want to accelerate while turning you sometimes need to make "pointier" lines than if you have differential. Hairpins comes to mind. Tricky thing is to get straight exit without losing too much speed, but driving the pretty, wide, lines is not always preferable because a) you increase the distance and b) you stay for a longer time in a state were the kart does not accelerate.
Each corner is different though, hard to say that "this corner is pointy" and "that one is round". You have to listen to the engine. With a strong engine, pointy hairpins is almost always preferrable. Dive in, turn it around, roar out.

[Ross Stonefeld]

The more sharp your turns though, the more you are scrubbing speed.

Repeat after me: Radius is Speed.

[Spyker MF1]

Find your braking points then every lap try to go an extra few centimeters beyond the braking point you used for the prevoius lap. Eventually you will take the corner slower due to braking too late then drop the braking distance to what it was 2/3 laps prevoius helping you to find optimum braking points on the track. If you are going that often you'll be able to remember where you braked and brake later than your mates

[Taxi]

wow so much data!
so leanout and not in like in a regular formula.. that's interesting...

I use to drive as clean as I can with perfect (almost ehehe) straigh lines....
But I have to change it sometimes to rough inner lines with a bit of slide righ?

the only time when i realy coud not folow my oponent was in France 3 years ago. I went as fast as I could and couldn't understand why the hell he was1 sec faster . he beated the track record...

[FreeRider]

I have a question about the sitting position. As I have heard, sitting more in front is better ( the karts, which I usually drive, have adjustable seats ) but when I'm very close to the steering, it's difficult to steer because of my knees. So, should I still sit in the very front position in spite of some discomfort?

[Dolph]

Originally posted by Taxi
wow so much data!
so leanout and not in like in a regular formula.. that's interesting...

I use to drive as clean as I can with perfect (almost ehehe) straigh lines....
But I have to change it sometimes to rough inner lines with a bit of slide righ?

the only time when i realy coud not folow my oponent was in France 3 years ago. I went as fast as I could and couldn't understand why the hell he was1 sec faster . he beated the track record...

Did you check the name? Perhaps it was Alain Prost...

I actually started a similar thread some years ago. It was called... "karting tips" no, really I had a cazilion replies. If you could find a link that would be useful.

[Taxi]

Originally posted by Dolph


Did you check the name? Perhaps it was Alain Prost...

yes! that was the name! how do you know...?;)

[Dolph]

never mind, here it is:

http://forums.autosp...ht=karting tips

and it's called "OT - kartin tips", you thread title stealing bastard ;)

[DSP]

Its quite different driving a rent-a-Kart or a competition Kart.

The ones for rent are not very powerful so smoothness is the key factor. In these karts you should brake earlier, avoid loosing much speed, and accelerate as soon as you can.

As for the competition ones, the power is "at your foot" so one can brake as late as he can, turn sharply, slam the throttle.... and there he goes.

[Taxi]

Originally posted by Dolph
never mind, here it is:

http://forums.autosp...ht=karting tips

and it's called "OT - kartin tips", you thread title stealing bastard ;)

wow! damit! sorry folks! my bad. The adminis. may merge them

[Dolph]

Originally posted by DSP
As for the competition ones, the power is "at your foot" so one can brake as late as he can, turn sharply, slam the throttle.... and there he goes.

Say what now!?

[Limits]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
The more sharp your turns though, the more you are scrubbing speed.

Repeat after me: Radius is Speed.

With a car, yes. With a (rental) kart - not always. Weak engine and stiff axle changes some of the rules that is backbone knowledge for a car racer.

[inaki]

Originally posted by FreeRider
I have a question about the sitting position. As I have heard, sitting more in front is better ( the karts, which I usually drive, have adjustable seats ) but when I'm very close to the steering, it's difficult to steer because of my knees. So, should I still sit in the very front position in spite of some discomfort?

Kart drivers usually transfer weight from the back to the front as much as possible to break better, sometimes they put his chest over the driving wheel to do so. Then they put his ass back in the seat again (traction is in rear axle, of course). This was a tip Alonso was giving in an interview when he was describing his particular F1 driving behaviour. He attribute it to his karting experience.

[Limits]

Originally posted by inaki
This was a tip Alonso was giving in an interview when he was describing his particular F1 driving behaviour. He attribute it to his karting experience.

...and perfected as a result of poor seat fitting at Minardi?;)

I was under the impression that the F1 drivers can hardly move at all in their seats?

[inaki]

Originally posted by Limits

...and perfected as a result of poor seat fitting at Minardi?;)

I was under the impression that the F1 drivers can hardly move at all in their seats?

Yeah, very funny. In fact they do not move his butt. They transfer the weight with brakes.

It starts with a really heavy brake that allows to change the weight balance: from having all in the back because of the engine weight, to translate to the front. This way, when he turns the steering wheel in a sudden manner, he has alredy a neutral car, sliding and understeering, with all 4 tyres moving at the same time, without touching the brakes, and with the car always facing towards the corner exit.

RenaultF1.com
Just this "secret" is already distinctive from his team mate Fisichella, and because of this, he wears his front tyres a little more. "Giancarlo comes back to throttle from lower revs than Alonso, because his corner speed is a little slower, and his traction control is set up differently, so he needs all the available torque inmediatly. Fernando doesn't" , points out Fabrice Lom, engine engineer. "That so agressive acceleration generates some slide in the rear wheels, and they wear out more than with Alonso, who relies less in the traction control".

[inaki]

Originally posted by Limits

...and perfected as a result of poor seat fitting at Minardi?;)

I was under the impression that the F1 drivers can hardly move at all in their seats?

It seems that transfers of body weight are extremely frequent in karting driving

[Limits]

Originally posted by inaki
This was a tip Alonso was giving in an interview when he was describing his particular F1 driving behaviour.

[inaki]

OK, sorry, maybe F1 driving style

[GBarclay]

Originally posted by inaki


Kart drivers usually transfer weight from the back to the front as much as possible to break better, sometimes they put his chest over the driving wheel to do so. Then they put his ass back in the seat again (traction is in rear axle, of course). This was a tip Alonso was giving in an interview when he was describing his particular F1 driving behaviour. He attribute it to his karting experience.

This only holds true for shifter karts and karts with brakes on both axles.

Most rental karts, and lots of other classes (Rotax, Tag) only have brakes on the rear axle. So you actually transfer your weight rearwards under braking to get as much weight over the rear wheels.

While Radius may equal speed - the shortest line is usually the quicker way around a track on a rental kart. The lack of power cannot make up the extra distance travelled. The exception would be driving a different "line" in order to keep the motor in the power band (Rotax, TAG, rentals).

Another technique to experiment with is pulling or pushing on the steering wheel. Sit in the kart on the ground in the pits. Turn the wheel, note how the front wheels will alternatively lift off the ground. Now head out onto the track. Once you are comfortable with a corner, (let us say a left turn for example) try turning the steering wheel, but at the same time pull towards you with your left hand. Or try turning but push the wheel with your left hand.

This transfers weight, and will achieve similar effects to moving your body towards the outside of the turn. Each kart will behave differently depending on setup, but you will notice a remarkable difference in the way the kart takes the corner. I think I gained this knowledge from an article written by Bryan Herta. I think it is also mentioned in Memo Gidley's go-kart speed book.

Enjoy.

[Haddock]

Originally posted by Limits

With a car, yes. With a (rental) kart - not always. Weak engine and stiff axle changes some of the rules that is backbone knowledge for a car racer.

I'm with Ross here. The weaker the engine the more important it is - with no differential, you lose more power the greater the difference between the speed of the inside and outside wheels - so minimising the radius is almost always the most important thing. The only exception to this is that sometimes through very slow corners where you're losing a lot of momentum anyway, you're as well to just take the hit and get it turned in early so you can get back on the throttle in a straight line...

My experiences of racing hire karts (admittedly nice twin-engine prokarts) is that you really need to concentrate on your cornering lines- and unless you are really good, don't worry too much about being late on the brakes - there's never as much time to be made up in braking zones as in corner exit...

[Limits]

Originally posted by Haddock


I'm with Ross here. The weaker the engine the more important it is - with no differential, you lose more power the greater the difference between the speed of the inside and outside wheels - so minimising the radius is almost always the most important thing.

That is partly true. But you are assuming that nothing is done to compensate for the difference in speed (needed but not gotten) between the two wheels. Next time you rent a kart, try this: Before you sit down, just turn the steering wheel maximum in one direction. If you turn it to the right, look what happens to the right rear wheel.
Thats right - it is lifted.
Now, depending on setup it will lift more or less, but you might want to check a few karts and grab one with a lot of lift to begin to explore the effect.

Now imagine two scenarios:
1. You make a big radius
2. You make a small radius

When is the wheel lifted more?
When is it more likely that both wheels are gripping and force the poor engine to rip one of them sticky tyres loose?

When you on top of that helps the kart lifting the inner wheel (leaning outwards) the difference is even bigger, because in the tight turn the centrifugal forces will also help while you in the smooth, big radius turn does not get that help (and the steering geometry does not help eitherbeacsue the wheel is turned so little).

As a result: Long radius will keep both wheels on the ground, both fighting eachother, for a long time while the tight radius might lift one wheel and therefore "giving the victory" to the other wheel and no struggle is needed.

There is, of course, situation were big radius is to prefer, but my general rules is:
1. If you (with your own current technique) does not hit apex, you are going to fast on entry
2. If you (with your current technique) does not hit the outer edge of the track on exit, you are not getting back on power enough (too late or too little)

Number one is pretty straight forward. If you have never any problem hitting the apex you should propably increase entry speed a bit and if you always miss it you have to decrease it.

Number two is different. In some corners the kart is simply not powerful enough to really force you to the edge of the track on exit. If it aint - you should not go there. Many times have I left a meter on the outside and as a result simply gained a meter or two on the guy in front that DID use it.
Turns as tight the level of grip allow you while you accelerate as much as possible. You will go faster.

Note the "with your current technique" part - after you have learned to hit apex at max speed your technique will (usually) automatically improve so that the actual speed at the apex increases. When that increases, your exit speed will increase.

A corner should be driven at the limit of adhesion for as much time as possible, and the time spent in the corner should be a small as possible.

[nestor]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
The more sharp your turns though, the more you are scrubbing speed.

Repeat after me: Radius is Speed.

You are absolutely rigth about that , but the problem with rentals is that those engines are weak and don't have enough torque , so you need to keep that engine on high RPM's most of the time if you want a decent lap time , because if you let it drop let say at a hairpin or slow turn , it is very hard to get it up at max RPM again , so while you trying to do that you lose precious lap time and you are going to be a sitting duck for your friend to overtake you .

What i started doing to minimise that problem , first i looked for the corners where i had that problem , and then i try to enter the corner using the least brake possible and i start bliping the throtle to mantain the engine at high RPM's , it worked , i scrubbed 1 sec of my best laptime, now i'm just .5 sec of the track record , but remenber that you need a lot of seat time too .

[Powersteer]

Feel the kart from its grip, use your back to feel the forces in a very sensitive fashion then dance with it ;)

[911]

For some great information on karting, go to ekartingnews.com.

[jimm]

Originally posted by nestor


You are absolutely rigth about that , but the problem with rentals is that those engines are weak and don't have enough torque , so you need to keep that engine on high RPM's most of the time if you want a decent lap time , because if you let it drop let say at a hairpin or slow turn , it is very hard to get it up at max RPM again , so while you trying to do that you lose precious lap time and you are going to be a sitting duck for your friend to overtake you .

What i started doing to minimise that problem , first i looked for the corners where i had that problem , and then i try to enter the corner using the least brake possible and i start bliping the throtle to mantain the engine at high RPM's , it worked , i scrubbed 1 sec of my best laptime, now i'm just .5 sec of the track record , but remenber that you need a lot of seat time too .

I have to disagree....In general there are NO hard and fast rules for driving. Turn in early? Turn in Late? Brake early? brake late?? DEPENDS!!! is it an increasing radius corner??? Decreasing?? What about elevation....Does it change on entry??? on exit??? Both??? What about your Kart (or what ever you are driving) Do you have more power than grip (ie can you break the tires loose at the speed that you are accelerating out of the corner)?? Can you corner better than you acclerate or break (often the case in karts)?????

The best way to drive is drive to the track and vehicle.

[Taxi]

so much info! thanks folks! by the way... in the rain, is there any special driving?

[prty]

Originally posted by Taxi
so much info! thanks folks! by the way... in the rain, is there any special driving?

Use Alonso's setup!

Seriously:

http://www.karting.c...WetDriving.html

In that link it also answers some questions here:

Ok, for a kart to work and get you around a corner it needs to lift the rear wheel on the inside of the kart, and to do that it needs a certain amount of grip to get the chassis to roll over toward the outside front wheel.

You could see specially Nelsinho leaning towards the outside in that in that race Massa won recently.

Also:

2. Remember we are taking a wet line away from the rubber. So we turn into the boot very very late. And when you turn the wheel you snap it into full lock...hard and fast.

is interesting regarding the Alonso set up thing.

[Taxi]

guys guys!! I Just drove a Rotax 125 this weekend! oh what a feeling! does anyone knows its characteristics? Like max speed and reliability? I Think the one I drove was the 29 hp engine... And funny enough it's not that hard to control it has a very very good grip. Just felt like Liuzzi or something...

[pUs]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
The more sharp your turns though, the more you are scrubbing speed.

Repeat after me: Radius is Speed.

Agreed, a key thing with somewhat weak rental carts is to not scrub off speed. Sometimes it can even pay off using a bit weird lines, just to not scrub off speed..

[Big Block 8]

One bulletproof tip to go faster in those rent-a-karts - LOSE WEIGHT. I've driven them a few times with my mates and it's damn annoying to go around a corner, just behind a skinny little guy, enter a straight and then see him disappear into the next corner, while my kart is only half way down the straight desperately trying to haul my 240 pound ass around.

With only a couple of horsepower in play, the difference in acceleration is staggering, even with just a small total weight difference.

[RSNS]

Regarding driving in the rain. If you can do not use the brakes on fast corners: decelerate instead. Be extremely careful with the steering. If you brake, do it smoothly. It will pay. Do not smash the throttle at the exit: avoid lifting completely and be very progressive; do not use the rubber covered zones. Do not use kerbs unless it is a chicane where you are absolutely sure you do not have to make sudden turns. Sit as straight as you can.

For dry driving. It seems to me that all comes from driving smooth. Try to feel the adhesion of your kart at let it follow its path: do not take up all the track but instead follow what it seems to be the least resistance one. This may lead you to chose different lines from the amateurs, but do it nevertheless.

In very sinuous zones where you could perhaps not brake at all, if you sometimes have difficulty in not sliding at the exit, experiment you a very smooth braking before the bend: your exit will be more precise and faster.

In a nutshell: be as smooth as you possibly can: the kart ought to feel relaxed and easy. An important advantage of driving smooth is that you tire less. Try to concentrate completely but maintain your body relaxed.

One thing that has always paid with me: if a particular corner gives you problem (say you get too much sliding at the exit), try to lower your speed and then progressively increase it: brake later (but always progressively) accelerate earlier (again: progressively). You will learn the corner characteristics well and all its possibilities.

Try all kinds of trajectories. It will pay during races (overtaking and protective lines).

If the track is really slippery you can learn to drive with minimum grip. In that case, you can learn to be smooth during slides. Certain combination of corners (say three rights) may well be taken on a single slide, and you will learn the technique of braking in mid corner without disrupting the flow).

I was a smoothie; some drivers got similar results but were more jerky. But I am a big, heavy fellow, and always had a weight disadvantage (as well as a size disadvantage: a kart is too small for me and even the bench is too narrow for my back). So I would say that my smoothness actually overcame these shortcomings.

Nevertheless, while you ought to be smooth, you can and should also learn to brake slide: turn in (very fast and pronounced movement of the steering) earlier than you normally would and decelerate or even jam the brakes a little (fast, not strong); the kart will begin oversteer; correct with the steering, while accelerating (not full throttle); the kart will lose speed but not revs and you will be faster on exit if you do it right. Be prepared for a few spins.

EDITED to add: this has been written having a racing kart in mind. The same applies to the powerless renting karts. In those, the main danger is to take everything flat out. Experiment with smooth breaking even if you can make the corners flat.

[MichaelPM]

Repeatidly jump out of the seat when exiting onto a long straight, not sure how much of a difference it will make but great fun seeing people do that

[Tenmantaylor]

Went indoor 4 stroke karting yesterday for a friends birthday near the Thames Barrier in London. This is the place http://www.theracewa...lands/index.htm Really impressive facilities including a full replica of Schumis 99' F1 car and many F1 champion replica helmets.

The day before we went Bruno Senna was there doing a promotional event with Johnny Herbert and some other drivers! Apparently he did a 41.8s best lap, a full second shy of the lap record set by a professional female karting champion

Another Bruno pic http://www.theracewa...omnew-large.htm

The track is quite tight and technical with a banked first corner. On the whole it wasnt the best for side by side racing but the karts were in great condition with well maintained throttle and brake pedals for accurate inputs.

The format was a 10 minute qual to set the grid in race 1 from which the finishing order would set the grid for race 2. Both races were 20 minutes.

Luckily my kart was parked in 3rd slot for the qual so after dispatching the two infront of me I had 10-12 clear laps to set a quick time which I managed and bagged pole.

Had a good race with a couple of my friend's Spanish friends for the lead in race 1. We were consistently lapping within a tenth of each other, his best 44.59, mine 44.53. The main difference between us by the end was lapping other people which was tricky and I think he got taken out. Race two was a similar affair but I managed to pull out a big gap having got dialled in and really got the tyres warmed up.

I was overdriving the kart to start with, throwing the kart into corners without brakes trying to scrub speed off with undesteer or oversteer. By the end I was making up alot of time modulating the throttle on entry, the karts were surprisingly throttle senstive for low powered 4 strokes (9hp they told us). Only used the brakes at the tightest hairpin and found trailing the brakes a tiny bit was fastest as it encouraged the kart to turn in.

By the end I managed a 43.6s. If I weighed the same as Bruno or the two spanish blokes I reckon I could have been in the 42's. I weigh 92kg, Bruno 69kg, the lap record holder about 40!

Took the honours sporting a moustache in true Mansell style! Got a few years yet to match Niges lip warmer tho... (it was for charity, not fashion!)

http://photos-c.ak.f...996466_4691.jpg

Took the top step with pole, 2 fastest laps and 2 wins

http://photos-b.ak.f...996465_4447.jpg

Great fun!

[Tenmantaylor]

ROC Circuit to be used for a 24 hour karting event in December after the ROC event.

http://www.daytonama...rticle.php?id=2

http://www.daytona.c....php?article=92

And will be televised on Motors TV 25th Jan.

http://www.daytona.c...php?article=108

Anyone involved?