95 replies to this topic

[Lessa]

I read this today and thought it may be of interest here in this forum

An amazing car

[David M. Kane]

I'm surprised Abba Kogan is selling this car. Last time I checked he didn't need the money...

[Alan Cox]

There's already a thread on this one, Lessa

http://forums.atlasf...light=christies

[bradbury west]

When I read it the other day in the Telegraph, I thought how poor it was that they got the origins of the 4 circles so wrong. The fourth marque was of course Auto Union, along with Horch, DKW and Wanderer, not Audi, which is a modern concoction, when the rebranded, based on the imperative form of the Latin verb "to hear or listen" to mirror the original German of hoerchen, (sorry no umlaut) meaning the same thing.

Roger Lund

[Roger Clark]

Originally posted by bradbury west
When I read it the other day in the Telegraph, I thought how poor it was that they got the origins of the 4 circles so wrong. The fourth marque was of course Auto Union, along with Horch, DKW and Wanderer, not Audi, which is a modern concoction, when the rebranded, based on the imperative form of the Latin verb "to hear or listen" to mirror the original German of hoerchen, (sorry no umlaut) meaning the same thing.

Roger Lund

Really? The Telegraph's explanation is exactly as I have always understood it.

[David M. Kane]

For what's it's worth Abba Kogan paid close to 10 M Pounds for it, but I don't know how long ago that was.

[D-Type]

Originally posted by Roger Clark

Really? The Telegraph's explanation is exactly as I have always understood it.

Denis Jenkinson's Racing Car Pocketbook has Auto Union as "~ a racing organisation supported by four German motor manufacturers, Audi, Wanderer, horch and D.K.W., while the badge of the Auto Union comprised four interlocking rings, representing the four different companies."

There was a tie-up between Horch and Audi. I think Audi was the name coined for a downmarket car that they didn't want to say was a Horch. A bit like the Hutton which was a four cylinder car made by Napier whose name they felt was synonymous with a six-cylinder or the Dino which was the branding for the relatively downmarket V6 "small Ferrari"

[bradbury west]

Originally posted by D-Type
Denis Jenkinson's Racing Car Pocketbook has Auto Union as "~ a racing organisation supported by four German motor manufacturers, Audi, Wanderer, horch and D.K.W., while the badge of the Auto Union comprised four interlocking rings, representing the four different companies."

There was a tie-up between Horch and Audi. I think Audi was the name coined for a downmarket car that they didn't want to say was a Horch. A bit like the Hutton which was a four cylinder car made by Napier whose name they felt was synonymous with a six-cylinder or the Dino which was the branding for the relatively downmarket V6 "small Ferrari"

Absolutely right . I stand corrected.

I had, of course, failed to recall that August Horch, having founded his own eponymous firm in 1899 then left in 1909, but started again, this time with a car manufacturing firm called Audi, in one of which vehicles he won the Alpine Trial in 1911.

His firm was then taken over by DKW in 1928, which produced its own , first, DKW car , the type 15, going on into 1931 with the f1 which featured the first production transverse engine, front wheeldrive and independent suspension all together. It was in 1932 that the four firms which you cite formed Auto Union. In 1933 the marques/models were produced as clearly different technical types for the various markets.

I should, of course, have checked my archives for C&SC, April 1989 for this, and the rest of the marque history.

RL

[David Birchall]

Abba Kogan used to live here in Vancouver and i got to know him somewhat-he was a member of the Vintage Racing Club of BC and a member of our "Tea and Crumpet Club" which is for owners of pre-war cars only. He owned a house in West Vancouver which had the entire basement as a garage-something like twenty cars could be house there. He race at Westwood on one occasion in his T37A Bugatti-the ex Hugh Conway car. When he advertised the house for sale a buyer from Japan was so taken with the Bugatti and other cars in the basement that he paid something like a million dollars over the asking price to get the cars included. Within a year he was broke.
In 1991 a group of members of the "Tea and Crumpet" club participated in the Alaska Rally, which so far as I know has never been reported on. I had planned to go in my 1924 Vauxhall but it was not ready in time. Others went in various prewar cars: Aston Martin and Alfa Romeo 1750GS for instance. Kogan participated in a drophead Ferarri, possibly a 250GT. As the weather deteriorated he kept the top up untill ragging from other Canadian participants encouraged him to lower it. They all completed the Rally, through some incredible snowy conditions and Kogan kept the top down the whole time....
He always said that his money came from Pachincko slot machines in Japan.

[Roger Clark]

Originally posted by D-Type
Denis Jenkinson's Racing Car Pocketbook has Auto Union as "~ a racing organisation supported by four German motor manufacturers, Audi, Wanderer, Horch and D.K.W., while the badge of the Auto Union comprised four interlocking rings, representing the four different companies."

There was a tie-up between Horch and Audi. I think Audi was the name coined for a downmarket car that they didn't want to say was a Horch. A bit like the Hutton which was a four cylinder car made by Napier whose name they felt was synonymous with a six-cylinder or the Dino which was the branding for the relatively downmarket V6 "small Ferrari"

I don't think the Audi was a downmarket Horch. August Horch fell out with the other directors of the Horch company (over competition, he was in favour, they weren't) and left to form Audi.

[jgm]

I seem to recall that 'Horch' in German means 'listen' as in 'hark'. When Horch left his original company and decided to set up a new car company he obviously couldn't call it 'Horch' so he translated his name into latin and it came out as 'Audi'.

[Ralf Pickel]

That is right - and AUDI, of course, is the latin translation for HORCH, which is a german word for DO LISTEN !!!

Oh, I just realised, that I was a second too slow..

[David McKinney]

Originally posted by Ralf Pickel
TOh, I just realised, that I was a second too slow..

No, ten hours too slow

[David M. Kane]

David Birchall:

Rumor has it the original Kogan money came from arms sales. Last I heard his DAILY income was some ridiculous amount like 10M Pounds. That was from a Restoration guy in New Zealand years ago.

[Peter Morley]

Originally posted by David M. Kane
David Birchall:
Rumor has it the original Kogan money came from arms sales. Last I heard his DAILY income was some ridiculous amount like 10M Pounds. That was from a Restoration guy in New Zealand years ago.

I've only heard the Japanese slot machine story, and that it was his father who had started the business.

Did hear the purchase price was more like twice the estimated value - and they have got it running since buying it, which will have eaten up a few more pennies.

Hard to imagine they believe it will actually sell at auction - finding one person prepared to stand up in public and admit to having that much spare cash is tricky, and you need two to make an auction.

Don't French auctions provide the taxman with details of the purchaser - that could result in some awkward questions and deter potential owners?

[David M. Kane]

Well I have to admit we have a lot of slot machines in this country!

[bradbury west]

[i]Originally posted by Peter Morley ]
[B]

Hard to imagine they believe it will actually sell at auction - finding one person prepared to stand up in public and admit to having that much spare cash is tricky, and you need two to make an auction.
]

Yet I heard today in an interview with a fine art dealer/historian that there is so much money sloshing around with seriously rich people wanting to buy. He cited the recent Jackson pollock sale price. I suppose fine art represents a known investment in its own right, plus ramping up the price of one masterpiece also increases the value of lesser works by the same artist. I suppose cars may be a different case, not that I am likely to be in a position to test it...............

Roegr Lund.

[David Birchall]

No David, he said his family owned the rights to the Pachinko machines in Japan--have you ever been to Japan and seen how many Pachinko machines they have/use? Its stunning

[David M. Kane]

No, I only made to the Osaka Airport on a connection to Bangkok, eventually to Bhutan. Have ever seen the Argyle socks in Bhutan?

Actually I REALLY want to spend some time in Japan, I think it's one of the great treats I have yet to taste.

[sandy]

Originally posted by David M. Kane
No, I only made to the Osaka Airport on a connection to Bangkok, eventually to Bhutan. Have ever seen the Argyle socks in Bhutan? :
Actually I REALLY want to spend some time in Japan, I think it's one of the great treats I have yet to taste.

We went to Japan for the first time last year and it certainly proved to be one of our great travel treats. It is a seriously weird place and wonderfully entertaining. The vehicles on the streets are fascinating, unusual cars and vans of types never known about to us, including 3/4 size 3.8 Jaguar replicas and vans out of a Disney cartoon. Then there is the Matsuda Collection of Ferraris, open to the public on weekends. Japan is ultra clean, neat, tidy, efficient, friendly and very, very different.

[Peter Morley]

Originally posted by bradbury west


Yet I heard today in an interview with a fine art dealer/historian that there is so much money sloshing around with seriously rich people wanting to buy. He cited the recent Jackson pollock sale price. I suppose fine art represents a known investment in its own right, plus ramping up the price of one masterpiece also increases the value of lesser works by the same artist. I suppose cars may be a different case, not that I am likely to be in a position to test it...............

Roegr Lund.

There are certainly a lot of people with plenty of money to spend, but so far most of them have avoided motor cars.
I guess it is easier to 'use' a painting - a nail in the wall and your done!! No ongoing maintenance (unless you leave it in the wrong environment) costs either.

A friend who invests money for people with too much money showed an advert for a fur coat and asked everyone to guess how much it cost, the nearest was a tenth of the price (it was 95 grand) and he explained that these people buy things like that just because they can! Like diamond encrusted mobile phones sold to footballer's scrawny wives, just so that they can have something 'different'.

One big difference with the current car boom (as opposed to 15ish years ago) is that the huge prices for top end cars isn't really filtering down, really special Ferraris are making huge prices again, but the 'common' ones aren't being pulled up with them. That probably happens more with paintings - presumably because they all tend to be equally rare?

I also wish I could test this theory, but so far I've only got one prediction completely wrong: when the Belgian sold his Type 59 Bugati for $10M in the last boom I said he'd never be able to buy another (and given he had no money, but several other interesting cars, I thought he should have kept the best one), but he could now buy a few of them for the same price - if he still had the money............

[swintex]

Video piece on the BBC

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by swintex
Video piece on the BBC

Excellent research as usual

It won the Paris Grand Prix ....

[Scuderia CC]

See here, this site : http://www.checkitout.co.uk/autounion/

Best regards

[wheelock]

Love the D types ! [though I feel the C just pips it for brutish grace!]
In fact I have just finished making a small sculpture of Nuvolari at the wheel of the previous version used at Donington in 38.

All the D types have nice variations of line, can't quite make up my mind as to which I prefer.
I tend to like th broad squared off nose of later types at the mo, the 38 version has the more rounded narrow profile.

Now lets see how much money I have in that piggy bank.....nope still six million short..


Mark

[D-Type]

Come on wheelock! Let's have a picture of your latest sculpture? Please!

[wheelock]

Originally posted by D-Type
Come on wheelock! Let's have a picture of your latest sculpture? Please!

Thanks.
I did not intend to hi jack this thread with own stuff.
As this piece will be available to purchase I am not sure what rules apply, I would be happy to
post a pic if it is OK to do so?



Cheers


Mark

[Twin Window]

As brought to my attention by an attentive fellow member, the forthcoming auction has been postponed, after a department of Audi deemed that "more research is needed..."!

[Vitesse2]

But if Audi Tradition have doubts about it, why has it taken them this long to voice them .....

[Dennis Hockenbury]

Could a possibility be that Audi Tradition has made, or would like to make an offer to Mr. Kogan for the car instead of the uncertainties of the auction process?

Regardless, it will be interesting to know more about this report.

[dretceterini]

Originally posted by Vitesse2
But if Audi Tradition have doubts about it, why has it taken them this long to voice them .....

I don't know if I would trust Audi Tradition any more than I trust Ferrari Classiche when it comes to history...

[Doug Nye]

So true, Stu.

Recently, with the owner of a car of great historic significance alongside me, facing major car company executives across a desk, we were informed blandly that 'Our records confirm it, your car does not exist'. Knowing where it has been almost every year of its life - with the documentary evidence to support this - I responded 'Huh, have we got news for you, sunshine!'.

It took a while to translate 'sunshine'...

But 30 minutes later, after we had taken them through our car's history, and its surviving distinguishing features, their eyes grew round. They began to shift somewhat uncomfortably in their chairs. And they began to listen.

Getting an archivist job with a major factory, and managing to hold it down for more than six months, does NOT qualify anybody to become the ultimate authority on their long-gone racing products, nor to pontificate upon great cars which have been with great owners since before many of us - and certainly most of these car company people - were born.

Ferrari is not the only company to have dropped huge goolies in this manner. And one day, having paid their 10,000 Euros fee for 'Factory Authentication', some poorly served and misled high-rolling owner is going to lash out...

Those company executives to whom these 'official' money-making scams seem a great idea simply do not realise how thin that ice can be.

In my long experience gullible newbie owners learn VERY quickly. Short-term factory profit can easily turn into long-term dispute, and - at worst - costly disaster in court...

DCN

[Catalina Park]

There is an Australian car manufacturer that will give me a certificate authenticating my car is genuine if I give them the chassis number. The thing is, all I own is the chassis number, the rest rusted away long ago.
So I can get a bit of paper stating that the car is genuine and real when it is a bit of aluminum plate sitting in a drawer.

[Vitesse2]

From the description on Christies website:

Having just been subjected to a mechanical refreshing at Crosthwaite and Gardiner, the car is absolutely ready to show, demonstrate or indeed race. As listed above only five Auto Union racing cars survive. Of these survivors, only the two Karassik-found cars can legitimately claim to be have been Grand Prix racing cars - the others are universally regarded as having been exhibition or hillclimb cars. Of the two cars that Karassik found, this is not only the most complete in terms of mechanical components, all of which were found in the same location, but is the definitive 1939 form of the model, with the big two-stage supercharger. In the words of Dick Crosthwaite, the reknowned restorer who has been involved with each of these cars, this is the best of all, with the added benefit of having been certified Professor Kirchberg of the Audi works themselves as the French Grand Prix winner - none of the other cars comes even close to such a provenance.

[Gary C]

you've got to laugh, haven't you...??

[Vitesse2]

And I'd almost saved up the 8 million

Originally posted by Gary C
you've got to laugh, haven't you...??

Maybe not if your name's Peter Kirchberg ....

[dretceterini]

Originally posted by Doug Nye


So true, Stu.

Recently, with the owner of a car of great historic significance alongside me, facing major car company executives across a desk, we were informed blandly that 'Our records confirm it, your car does not exist'. Knowing where it has been almost every year of its life - with the documentary evidence to support this - I responded 'Huh, have we got news for you, sunshine!'.

It took a while to translate 'sunshine'...

But 30 minutes later, after we had taken them through our car's history, and its surviving distinguishing features, their eyes grew round. They began to shift somewhat uncomfortably in their chairs. And they began to listen.

Getting an archivist job with a major factory, and managing to hold it down for more than six months, does NOT qualify anybody to become the ultimate authority on their long-gone racing products, nor to pontificate upon great cars which have been with great owners since before many of us - and certainly most of these car company people - were born.

Ferrari is not the only company to have dropped huge goolies in this manner. And one day, having paid their 10,000 Euros fee for 'Factory Authentication', some poorly served and misled high-rolling owner is going to lash out...

Those company executives to whom these 'official' money-making scams seem a great idea simply do not realise how thin that ice can be.

In my long experience gullible newbie owners learn VERY quickly. Short-term factory profit can easily turn into long-term dispute, and - at worst - costly disaster in court...

DCN

I would be VERY interested in exactly what car you are talking about. I would also be very appreciative if you would PM me about what happened with you in regard to the TZ thread you started a few years ago and a certain person's respnse to it

[René de Boer]

I see no reason to question Prof. Kirchberg's knowledge in this matter - he has been researching Auto Union history and that of the Silver Arrows in particular for decades. Funny thing is, in the very lavish catalogue that Christie's produced for the sale (a supplement for the Auto Union Type D alone), there is just a mentioning of Prof. Kirchberg's certification (also quoted further up in this thread), without any official document being published in the catalogue among all the other period and modern illustrations. That makes me wonder whether he indeed did an official certification.

This car is one of the two found by the Karassiks in Russia and restored by Crosthwaite & Gardiner in the early 1990s, without any Audi involvement. In fact, Audi Tradition was only founded in 1998.

A friend of mine suggested that somebody could have turned up with a serious amount of money wanting to buy the car without all the buzz and public attention at the auction. That doesn't seem unrealistic to me. And it wouldn't surprise me if this were the very same person who already owns a replica of an Auto Union Type C...

[dretceterini]

Originally posted by René de Boer
I see no reason to question Prof. Kirchberg's knowledge in this matter - he has been researching Auto Union history and that of the Silver Arrows in particular for decades. Funny thing is, in the very lavish catalogue that Christie's produced for the sale (a supplement for the Auto Union Type D alone), there is just a mentioning of Prof. Kirchberg's certification (also quoted further up in this thread), without any official document being published in the catalogue among all the other period and modern illustrations. That makes me wonder whether he indeed did an official certification.

This car is one of the two found by the Karassiks in Russia and restored by Crosthwaite & Gardiner in the early 1990s, without any Audi involvement. In fact, Audi Tradition was only founded in 1998.

A friend of mine suggested that somebody could have turned up with a serious amount of money wanting to buy the car without all the buzz and public attention at the auction. That doesn't seem unrealistic to me. And it wouldn't surprise me if this were the very same person who already owns a replica of an Auto Union Type C...

I'm not questioning the knowledge of Prof.Kirchberg; just the agenda of organizations such as Audi Tradition and Ferrari Classiche...

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by René de Boer
I see no reason to question Prof. Kirchberg's knowledge in this matter - he has been researching Auto Union history and that of the Silver Arrows in particular for decades. Funny thing is, in the very lavish catalogue that Christie's produced for the sale (a supplement for the Auto Union Type D alone), there is just a mentioning of Prof. Kirchberg's certification (also quoted further up in this thread), without any official document being published in the catalogue among all the other period and modern illustrations. That makes me wonder whether he indeed did an official certification.

Exactly my point René. I wasn't questioning his knowledge, but one way or the other there's a contradiction. I find it odd that the reason for postponement is for "further exploration into the car's race history" when Kirchberg has apparently certified it as the French GP winner.

Originally posted by René de Boer
A friend of mine suggested that somebody could have turned up with a serious amount of money wanting to buy the car without all the buzz and public attention at the auction. That doesn't seem unrealistic to me. And it wouldn't surprise me if this were the very same person who already owns a replica of an Auto Union Type C...

The same thought occurred to me. But surely it would have to be officially withdrawn, not merely postponed? And there's no obligation for a bidder to reveal his or her identity anyway, so why do it that way and maybe draw attention to yourself simply through speculation?

[Vitesse2]

Hmm, now this is interesting. If you go to Christie's Paris press releases, there is no apparent trace of the Auto Union in the Retromobile auction. At the bottom of the English text, however, there is evidence it was there:

Current world record for a car at auction was is 1931 Bugatti Type 41 Royale Sports Coupe - £5.5m. Sold at Christie's 19th November 1987.

They can't be expecting anything like that for the Mercedes 540K can they?

The equivalent text has seemingly been deleted from the French version.

http://www.christies...007&location=45

[bradbury west]

I must admit to thinking that Jenks and Terry Cohn must be having a quiet chuckle up on their clouds about a situation like this..
Roger Lund

[Holger Merten]

Originally posted by René de Boer


This car is one of the two found by the Karassiks in Russia and restored by Crosthwaite & Gardiner in the early 1990s, without any Audi involvement. In fact, Audi Tradition was only founded in 1998.

René there were involvements of Audi with the Karassiks and C&G in the early 90s. Don't forget, Auto Union GmbH still operates since 1985 for traditional belongings. "Audi tradiion" is a "marketing-name for history activities of Audi.

[flat-16]

If I had the money, I'd buy the car. Having said that though, how would you feel (presuming the pedigree is tickety-boo) driving a car that Nuvolari drove?

Justin

[wheelock]

Much as I love auto unions I am no expert on provenance ,serial no etc.
It,s my understanding that this car used original chassis parts and engine with every thing
else made from scratch based on archive reference from Audi.
So it's not really as driven by Nuvolari is it?
But it does look fab and is probably as original as you are going to get.

Are there any AU models that survived in their 1930s near as raced original condition rather than a bright and shiny concourse restoration?

I have seen many pics during my searches for reference [C & D] models and get a bit confused as to what I am looking at.
[i love em all of course!]



Mark

[Holger Merten]

Originally posted by wheelock


Are there any AU models that survived in their 1930s near as raced original condition rather than a bright and shiny concourse restoration?


Mark

Only the Typ C/D Hillclimber is a car of nearly a real original condition.

[Allan Lupton]

Originally posted by flat-16
how would you feel (presuming the pedigree is tickety-boo) driving a car that Nuvolari drove?

Justin

Someone, Alain de Cadinet I think, had a small notice in the cockpit of his Alfa to remind him that "Nuvolari sat here" (or words to that effect)

[Brun]

Interesting.
Christie claimed that it's chassis number 21, engine number 37 in this Typ D.
At least the engine was certified for racing by the ONS: http://forums.autosp...ht=bundesarchiv

But somewhere in the back of my mind there is something about none of the surviving Auto Unions having a clear chassis number - either the rediscovered scrap didn't have a chassis plate, or none of the historians could make any sense of it.

I'm wondering if that's true.

[dretceterini]

I do not pretend to know about chassis numbers, but I would love to see photos of the bakelite inlays with the engine numbers if you have any..

[Peter Morley]

Originally posted by Brun
But somewhere in the back of my mind there is something about none of the surviving Auto Unions having a clear chassis number - either the rediscovered scrap didn't have a chassis plate, or none of the historians could make any sense of it.

I'm wondering if that's true.

Did they have chassis plates originally? A lot of race cars just had numbers stamped in the frame (if they even needed that).

Maybe the part of the frame with a number on it was missing when they found the remains?