36 replies to this topic

[Mohican]

When in Rome last week, I found a biography - in English - of Eugenio Castelotti; who was killed in a testing accident in early 1957.

Together with Luigi Musso, who was killed in an accident at the French GP at Reims in 1958, he made up the lost Italian generation. There is often talk about Hawthorn, Collins and Lewis-Evans - and, much later, of Williamson, Brise and Pryce - but what about the Italians ?

We hear so much about Moss & Jenkinson winning the Mille Miglia in 1955 - but what about Castelotti winning it the following year ? Driving singlehanded in pouring rain ?

When looked at from a British perspective, we often hear that Musso fatally crashed "trying to keep up with Hawthorn"; implying that he was not as good on a permanent basis, an assessment I think must be open to question. Particularly when looking at Musso's spectacular performance at the Monza 500 miles F1/USAC race just a few weeks previously.

[kevthedrummer]

I've just finished reading the same book. Although the language is a bit flowery for my liking I enjoyed it as I did not know much about Castellotti. It suggests that Eugenio was generally faster than Peter Collins. It would be interesting to hear some opinions on this. He certainly had some outstanding drives, of which the Mille Miglia was probably the pinnacle. Didn't he lose his visor as well?

[Mohican]

Yes, he apparently drove the second half of the race without a visor - in pouring rain.

[Mohican]

Another thing that I did not previously know was that Castellotti was close friends with both Ascari and Fangio.

In fact he helped carry Ascari's coffin, and Fangio later did the same for him...those were perilous times.

[kevthedrummer]

Incidentally, I found this on ebay. Should probably be in the ebay thread but, since we're talking about him...

http://cgi.ebay.co.u...VQQcmdZViewItem

[Barry Boor]

The bids on that postcard seem staggeringly high to me.

I too have the Castelotti book - very effusive prose, presumably directly translated from the original Italian. But, a lovely book about a very fine driver who, IMHO, may well have been right in amongst the Vanwalls in 1958 had he lived.

Musso I have never been awfully sure about. A good driver, no doubt, but one who never really fulfilled his potential. I hasten to add that this is purely a personal view, but I think Enzo Ferrari 'drove' him to try too hard 'for the glory of Italy' and that is what cost him his life.

That and the infamous Reims ditch!

[kevthedrummer]

Originally posted by Barry Boor
The bids on that postcard seem staggeringly high to me.

That's what I thought, and it hasn't even met its reserve yet!

[Scuderia SSS]

Musso's stirling effort in the 1955 Aintree GP was a pleasure to watch. I personally think he would have been a future star.
As for Castelotti, his performance at speed was stunning, being the fastest of the qualifying Ferraris in the same race, so i think both should be admired and perhaps looked at more closely

[Doug Nye]

By consistent standards when they were all Ferrari team-mates, Collins was demonstrably quicker than Castellotti and Musso and in period was regarded as being so.

Castellotti was regarded as being capable of driving quicker than Musso, but less reliably. Musso was regarded as being quick when he could be bothered - in a similar vein to Hawthorn being regarded as being incredibly quick when he felt OK.

But essentially every driver was judged within Ferrari by their last previous performance.

Otherwise they might find, as did Phil Hill after a poor weekend, the team manager telephoning Old Man Ferrari to report that "X ha fatto niente" - "X did nothing"...

DCN

[LittleChris]

Chaps, since it's not actually been mentioned, I assume the Castellotti book referred to is ' A Stolen Heart' by Cesare De Agostini ?

[kevthedrummer]

Originally posted by LittleChris
Chaps, since it's not actually been mentioned, I assume the Castellotti book referred to is ' A Stolen Heart' by Cesare De Agostini ?

Aye, that's the one I read.

[kevthedrummer]

Just noticed that I typed that last reply in Scottish. Apologies.

[Mohican]

Originally posted by Doug Nye
By consistent standards when they were all Ferrari team-mates, Collins was demonstrably quicker than Castellotti and Musso and in period was regarded as being so.


DCN

Doug,

you have probably been reading the English race reports of the day - not sure the Italian ones came to the same conclusion.

This is without downgrading Hawthorn & Collins; but they had longer careers at the top, and also - importantly - survived the other two. If - sadly - not by much.

What a waste.

[Mal9444]

Originally posted by LittleChris
Chaps, since it's not actually been mentioned, I assume the Castellotti book referred to is ' A Stolen Heart' by Cesare De Agostini ?

I don't suppose the author is related to the motor cycle ace of very similar name?

[kevthedrummer]

Originally posted by Mohican


Doug,

you have probably been reading the English race reports of the day - not sure the Italian ones came to the same conclusion.

This is without downgrading Hawthorn & Collins; but they had longer careers at the top, and also - importantly - survived the other two. If - sadly - not by much.

What a waste.

According to the head-to-head comparisons here - http://wheel2wheel.c...p?d1=499&d2=614 - there is a case for Musso having the edge over Collins.

[Paul Parker]

It occurs to me that the way to view the respective merits of Musso and Castellotti would be respectively:
Musso had probably reached his peak as a driver. The Monzanapolis form was demonstrably a case of national pride and sheer guts, Hawthorn by comparison was more aware of the risks and in his entire racing career rarely drove beyond his capabilities. He must have regarded the Monza escapade as sheer lunacy being bounced almost out of the car around the banking. Thereafter a proper harness was fitted and Musso benefitted from this (Karl Ludvigsen took a wonderful photo of Musso sitting in the car with said harness, his facial expression and staring eyes revealing all). As an aside wasn't Musso in trouble owing money to somebody over borrowing to set up a car importing agency or similar? Again I'm running on memory from here so Doug or somebody will know better.
Castellotti was surely still developing as a driver and was going to get better and better, but as was so often the case he did not survive long enough to realise his full potential. He had already demonstrated his pace against Ascari and of course not only won the 1956 MM but also a big sports car race at Rouen that year, a circuit that always sorted the wheat from the chaff. Additionally in a team that also included Fangio and Collins (de Portago was not in the same class) and of course Gendebien occasionally during 1956 it would not have been easy to stand out.
My personal opinion is that EC would have become one of the best drivers of the era had he not died, so unnecessarily, but that's just my opinion.

[HDonaldCapps]

I managed to be around at the time, got to watch both on the track, and see them in the paddocks here and there. All the drivers were pretty much gods to me at the time. As an American who lived on The Continent and made trips to races in Britain (an read all the rags of the time in English -- both kinds: English and American), my attention was usually directed towards Italy when it came to racing. I learned enough Italian to get by okay and learned to read Italian so as to read the Italian rags I picked up.

Not until 1959 & 1960 did we begin to focus a bit more on the British racing scene. Musso and Castelotti -- and several others of their era as well, were the folks we talked about. I met Musso a few times and he seemed to be a nice person. Ditto with Castelotti. I even managed to forgive Musso for driving for Scuderia Ferrari -- I was a bit of a Maserati type in those days. We were at Reims when he had his crash. We could not see it from where we were at that moment, but we knew Something Bad had happened very quickly. It took a lap or two to realize it was Musso. I don't think that we realized he was dead until after the race. I remember taking it pretty much in stride, just as with Collins weeks later -- we were hardened little devils back then it seems.

In the back of my mind, I have always wondered just how far Castelotti would go up the racing ladder. I feel that he would have been pretty close to the top. I think that he was pretty good. His accident almost defied belief at the time, which is saying something.

With hindsight, I have often thought that many drivers of the time -- Musso being a good example, never quite gave it the concentration and focus we would expect and /or assume today. Or were beginning to expect at the time. Motor racing was just a sport -- small "s" -- and not the all-consuming occupation it is for many of those involved today. During the 50s, the number of drivers being able to subsist on the monies earned solely (or even primarily) from their racing had to be a small handful of people anywhere in the world.

I am not sure who was really the quickest of the crew at Scuderia Ferrari since I don't think any of them ventured close to the edge of the envelope on a constant, consistant basis. This is not a criticism, but perhaps simply an observation that they did have some inkling of their mortality.

It was still known as "grand prix" or "gran premio" racing then.

It was a different time.

[Doug Nye]

Originally posted by Mohican


Doug, you have probably been reading the English race reports of the day - not sure the Italian ones came to the same conclusion.

Nope. Personal recollection from the period plus input from many who raced alongside those drivers in both single-seater and sports cars in period, who knew them and watched them race in period, and who worked with them and helped them race in period.

Musso was regarded as being quick and sensible, and starstruck by nobody - Castellotti quick and too often senseless, also utterly starstruck by Fangio, very quick in brief bursts but inconsistent, his Mille Miglia success was a brilliant day virtually unrepeated - he steadied himself and won the lottery - Collins was quick and consistent and of course for much of his Ferrari career, very well favoured by The Old Man - amongst this group Hawthorn was generally regarded by his employers, by the objective Italian press, the objective British press, the French press etc, as being quickest of all on his day, when he felt fit, and perhaps above all...when it really mattered.

I believe Don makes a significant point by emphasising that in all probability none "...of them ventured close to the edge of the envelope on a constant, consistent basis". Each had his different reasons for not doing so. Amongst them I have been assured that the man who did so most often was P.J. Collins.

DCN

[HDonaldCapps]

I deliberately left it open as to "who was really the quickest of the crew at Scuderia Ferrari," but the gent who pushed the envelope race after race was Collins. Whether or not he may or may not been the absolutely quickest is irrelevant because it tended to be Collins who "showed up" each race. Even on days that things were not going well -- for whatever reason, Collins hung in there.

Hey, the Italians loved Collins, or at least those I dealt with back then. I think that says something.

I think Castelotti might have gone in that direction, being more like Collins, had Fate not intervened. Just my thoughts after mulling it over.

[Mohican]

Interesting comments. I started this thread mainly because I felt that Castellotti and Musso do not normally get the credit - or coverage - they deserve in the British-based specialist press; which, let's face it, is what most of us see. This is why I felt that a re-assessment was in order.

Does anybody know what are the views of Stirling Moss, and perhaps Tony Brooks ?

[Twin Window]

Originally posted by Mohican

Does anybody know what are the views of Stirling Moss, and perhaps Tony Brooks ?

Reading Doug's posts, I imagine that you've already had them...

[Arjan de Roos]

Don (and others),

Did you as a eye-witness notice any effect of the pressure (Italian press/Enzo) on the italian boys?

And were the British boys more free from pressure? For instance Hawthorn simply wrote Enzo a letter if he was disappointed with the performance of his car that weekend.

[HDonaldCapps]

Imagine some of the trash talk on the internet today and you have an idea as to what most of the Italian sports figures were subjected to in those days by the journalists writing for the Italian sports rags. Motor racing stars were targets just like the football stars and the other leading lights of the sports world. In retrospect it seems a bit bewildering and even silly, but passions ran deep and the stars were always in the spotlight -- or the crosshairs. It was certainly not the stately, measured words of the English rags nor the upbeat, admiring prose of the American rags. The Italian rags may not always stand the test of time as historical materials, but they were certainly fun to read.

All this was on top of the pressure that the teams placed on their drivers, one team in particular.

The foreign drivers tended to handle the pressure and chaos in different ways, which is not a surprise. I think that Collins and Hawthorn handled it better than about anyone during this period. OMF seemed to allow them some leeway that they took advantage of -- and deservedly so. Plus, they were probably fairly immune to much of the team politics anyhow. Thinking back, they seemed to have that attitude that the real fighter jocks and the real cowboys and those truly comfortable with (and within) themselves always seem to have and all the "stuff" just rolled off.

The deaths of Ascari and Castelotti and Musso and the failure of others to step up into their places really had some major consequences on Italy's place in the racing constellation. Stir in the loss of Maserati from the GP scene, all the problems OMF had keeping the scuderia's head above water, and just the direction racing began to shift towards, and you begin to feel that things might have been different -- but that wasn't what happened. The center of gravity shifted to Britain in what seemed to be the blinking of an eye, but was, of course, the culmination of a long march.

[Doug Nye]

Originally posted by Mohican
Interesting comments. I started this thread mainly because I felt that Castellotti and Musso do not normally get the credit - or coverage - they deserve in the British-based specialist press.

Where non-British drivers are concerned this might well be true of the pathetically childish fanzine press as it struggles to survive here in the UK today, but generally this was NOT the case in the period upon which this particular thread is based.

Back in the 1950s the specialist British motor sporting pressmen were terribly keen to see their boys at first aspire to challenge "the Continental 'cracks'", and then to being beating them, and thereafter to continue beating them.

But in Britain the generally wide level of respect for foreign racing drivers in general - and the Italians in particular - was very high indeed. Musso and Castellotti were expected to match the attainments of Ascari, Villoresi, Farina and Taruffi before them. There was more sympathy and regret than you might believe today when they did not.

DCN

[Manel Baró]

Originally posted by kevthedrummer
Just noticed that I typed that last reply in Scottish. Apologies.

Why?

[Mohican]

Originally posted by Doug Nye


Where non-British drivers are concerned this might well be true of the pathetically childish fanzine press as it struggles to survive here in the UK today, but generally this was NOT the case in the period upon which this particular thread is based.

Back in the 1950s the specialist British motor sporting pressmen were terribly keen to see their boys at first aspire to challenge "the Continental 'cracks'", and then to being beating them, and thereafter to continue beating them.

But in Britain the generally wide level of respect for foreign racing drivers in general - and the Italians in particular - was very high indeed. Musso and Castellotti were expected to match the attainments of Ascari, Villoresi, Farina and Taruffi before them. There was more sympathy and regret than you might believe today when they did not.

DCN

That is good to hear. My earlier comment was based more on what I have seen of the specialist press during the period that I have followed it, meaning from the early 70's onwards.

Could not agree more with you in your observations about the current state of affairs, but that is - as you say - not the topic here.

[lil'chris]

Not sure if it's been mentioned in another thread but just over 50 years have passed since Luigi Musso lost his life during the 1958 French GP.

Les amis du circuit du gueux recently held a small ceremony in remembrance

http://www.amis-du-c...e-a-Luigi-Musso


Chris

[HDonaldCapps]

Originally posted by lil'chris
Not sure if it's been mentioned in another thread but just over 50 years have passed since Luigi Musso lost his life during the 1958 French GP.

And I was there, but did not see the crash, not being in the area where it happened. We quickly figured that he was missing and soon realized that someone had had a big shunt and put the two together. That was the first race Mom attended after the 1955 Le Mans event and the last one ever for her. And, yeah, thanks for mentioning that it was 50 years ago....

[Arturo Pereira]

Thanks for all the memories already written here !!

I always thought that, since Ascari´s death, Ferrari looked for an Italian driver to replace him. A lot of Italian drivers worked for Ferrari since then but Ferrari also lost a lot of very good drivers, even if, imo, they could not match the best of their years, as Moss, Fangio, Clark, etc..

[ZOOOM]

Well.... There was one Italian....American.... that stired the soul of The Enginere....
The kid from Nazareth......
ZOOOM

[Buford]

I remember Castellotti from the Stirling Moss books when I was a kid and Speed Age but don't know much about him. What happened to him? His Motorsports Memorial page is pretty blank.

http://www.motorspor...php?db=ct&n=110

Somebody who knows more about him should fill them in.

[Barry Boor]

There is a biography of Eugenio. It's called 'A Stolen Heart'. It is by Cesare de Agostini.

The photography in the book is superb; the text is, I think, translated from Italian and whilst being very readable, is somewhat, shall we say, 'flowery' to an English speaker.

I thouroughly enjoyed it and am very glad I invested.

[Mal9444]

Originally posted by Buford
I remember Castellotti from the Stirling Moss books when I was a kid and Speed Age but don't know much about him. What happened to him? His Motorsports Memorial page is pretty blank.

http://www.motorspor...php?db=ct&n=110

Somebody who knows more about him should fill them in.

He was killed during a testing session, and I think I read somewhere that it was something to do with the correct tyres for the new car not being available and they were using tyres from a different wheel. The tyre came off at speed. I thought I had read this in Mon Ami Mate - but have just looked and cannot find it. Or am I mixing this up with Ascari's fatal accident?

My real reason for posting is to concur with the sentiments expressed by DCN the last time this thread was active. As a schoolboy during the Fifties I - and my fellows - knew and idolised all the drivers of whatever nationality but in particular the Italians. At that time it was assumed that Italy, as a matter of course, produced the best racing drivers and that they were the ones that Moss, Collins, Hawthorn et al had to beat. And of course, we drew this knowledge and belief from what we read about them in the British press, specialist and otherwise. I saw both Castellotti and Musso in action and thought them gods.

Their deaths were both wastes, although at the time were not percieved as anything like so shocking as they do now when one looks back at that era.

Barry - what does your biography say about the crash?

[Barry Boor]

No, Malcolm, nothing like you describe. I think you are thinking of Ascari.

Castellotti seems to have missed his braking point for the little left-right chicane at the end of the start-finish straight at Modena. The Ferrari hit a little wall (20 cms high) but that caused the car to somersault, with an all too predictable a result for a 1950s racing driver.

[Pedro 917]

From an old Mexican magazine, Reims 1958 : Musso, Pedro Rodriguez, Fangio and Ricardo Rodriguez.

[Mal9444]

Originally posted by Barry Boor
No, Malcolm, nothing like you describe. I think you are thinking of Ascari.

Castellotti seems to have missed his braking point for the little left-right chicane at the end of the start-finish straight at Modena. The Ferrari hit a little wall (20 cms high) but that caused the car to somersault, with an all too predictable a result for a 1950s racing driver.

Thanks - and I am thinking of Ascari.

[Bloggsworth]

Dennis Jenkinson, in The racing Driver was very interesting about the way Ferrari callously set one driver against the other in order to extract the most from them, the implication being that their lives were of secondary importance to the success of Ferrari. I doubt this technique worked with Hawthorn and Collins.

Jenks description of Castellotti after final practice at Spa illustrated a man on the edge (Correct me if I'm wrong, after all, it was over 40 years ago that I read it)