48 replies to this topic

[rdmotorsport]

It as probably been done already but just in case here goes and no doubt to the enjoyment of "Twinny", Big Lou or Louis T Stanley Esq., late of "Old Mill House,Trumpington,Cambridge.
Unfortunatly probably still blamed for the demise of the nations much loved BRM but if I would be allowed to fight in his corner so to speak if not for just brief while?
Brian Redman once was quoted in saying that in motor racing avoid working for Louis Stanley or Sid Taylor well like Brian and others I managed this task and lived to tell the tale and I have still great affection for Sid and until his demise Big Lou (although I never dared to refer to him as this, it started as Mr.Stanley and progressed to Louis)
Unfortunatly with the progress of design and developement the team from Bourne somehow became in the "catch up" mode and alas never did, the Southgate and then the Pilbeam designed cars i.e. P160 to P201 were very good cars and Big Lou was ahead of his time by factoring good backing from marlboro and others but felt that if you could run one car,then two why not more to which the extra income would swell the coffers, we all know this was folly but to continue onwards with what was becoming a smaller outfit still running P201 into the mid seventies now entitled Stanley-BRM and then it looked like a re invention with the Rotary backed 207 but the car was probably rushed and placed the designer in a compromise although Len Terry,Alan Challis,Stan Hope,Cyril Maylem(CTG),David Hepworth and others tried so hard in vain but Big Lou was always a optimist to a fault,I think it was the 1977 British GP when Guy Edwards was drafted in(with sponsor cash) and Lou telephoned David Hepworth who was setting off for Silverstone saying he expected Guy to be at least in the top half of the grid and this would shock and surpize all the "knockers" unfortunatly Guy drove with verve but did not even pre qualify!
Great personel have emerged from BRM, Southgate and Pilbeam great down to earth designers,Alan Challis such a practical man, and many,many more who like myself still speak of the man in the bespoke Dunhill blazer with great affection, and the good staff as mentioned stayed at Bourne for long periods rather to dissapear for a more succesful team, you could converse with this man on so many subjects from Golf to Rugby to Fine art and in my bookcase I have still various signed copies of his written work and still some coasters from the Dorchester.

Stuart, your feelings pl;ease.

Rodney Dodson

[MCS]

Originally posted by rdmotorsport
Brian Redman once was quoted in saying that in motor racing avoid working for Louis Stanley or Sid Taylor...

I could probably understand avoiding working for the former, but the latter?

Shurely shome mishtake here...

[Gary C]

there are som epretty heated feelings on the forum about Big Lou...............

[MCS]

Originally posted by Gary C
there are some pretty heated feelings on the forum about Big Lou...............

But never once a bad word about Sid...

[rdmotorsport]

As I have said before I have a great admiration for Sid but it was a quote from BR minst you probably tongue in cheek but equally so people who worked and knew Lou generally stayed loyal and plus Lincolnshire was far more gentile place to work than Surrey!

[Gary C]

http://forums.autosp...ght=lou stanley

[Andrew Kitson]

I was born in Cambridge and up until I was 12 years old lived in Trumpington, just a couple of miles south of Cambridge city centre. Big Lou lived in his nice old house in Trumpington on the main road to the city and I could often see him, on the phone at his desk, from my view on the top deck of my school bus as we passed! I'm not entirely sure but I think I became a young BRM fan because the boss lived near to me. The mobile hospital that he introduced was also parked up behind the petrol station in the village between GPs.

When I was 10 or 11, we had a school project to do, I naturally chose the history of the motor car and once completed with my drawings copied from the old Brooke Bond picture cards, I plucked up the courage to knock on his door one day to ask him if he would like to read it. Unfortunately he was not in, but the cleaning lady said she would give it to him. To my delight I received it back in the post with a lovely letter which I still have and signed black and white photos of all Yardley BRM drivers plus press shots of the P160 and one of him and Jean. Also an invitation to the BRM open day! Alas my father could not get the time to take me and would not let me miss school for it either...

He was very kind to this young fan I must say, however I had only brief meetings with him in later life.

[Doug Nye]

My personal experiences of BL - 'Whispering Smith' as my late colleague Geoff Goddard used to call him - together with my extensive researches (and those of others very close to him, or to whom he and his various business activities became anathema) demonstrate a man of incredible extremes. He was certainly capable of both wicked cruelty and great kindness. I find it difficult to condone his pomposity, arrogance, vanity and deceit...but when one analyses his upbringing and background one finds reason for all the above. One thing's for sure - his Owen Organisation heiress wife Jean was utterly smitten with him.

Few of life's darker or more controversial characters are all bad. Just this week Brian Lister - a fellow Cambridge man (like BL) - sent me a cutting from the local newspaper, reporting the following:

"A top Cambridge writer who died in 2004 has left much of his £500,000 estate to good causes in the city area..." - £200,000 went to the children's hospice at Milton - and the Acorn House home-from-home facility run by the Sick Children's Trust at Addenbrooke's Hospital - for those who don't know a British cancer-treatment centre of excellence - receives £10,000.

Executor John Tarrant - BL's Cambridge lawyer - had been directed in the will to donate the bulk of the estate to good causes, especially local ones, and it was left to Mr Tarrant's discretion to decide which ones. BL did not select the beneficiaries, he delegated the task.

Still not all bad, eh?

But I cannot help wondering just how well BRM fortunes 1969-77 might have improved had BL in his pomp been so willing to delegate to those who knew better?

DCN

[kayemod]

I met Louis several times, and he was always charm personified. The first time we met I must have been about 10, he called me "Young Sir", and though I was the only young person in the group, insisted on involving me in the conversation, which in those 'seen but not heard' days was unusual. Our paths crossed again during my time at Specialised Mouldings. I occasionally got sent to Bourne to make new GRP items fit their P153 & P160 cars, not always an easy task, as from fairly distant memory they varied considerably between supposedly identical examples, though the workmanship was excellent. I don't think Louis visited the shop floor all that often, though he was usually around to see anything new. BRM employees seemed to be about twice the average age of those at places like McLaren,and as far as factory cleanliness and working conditions were concerned, Bourne and Colnbrook were at opposite ends of the spectrum. For the most part, BRM people were a friendly and cheerful lot, I don't remember any of them speaking ill of Louis behind his back, though they did seem to have a distinctly 'master & servant' relationship that I never encountered anywhere else in that era. Maybe I was lucky in that I only met him when he was in a good mood. I wouldn't say that BRM employees revered him, but they certainly respected him, and from what they told me, he was a good man to work for, so although I have to accept that he had a dark side, as Doug & Andrew say, he had a good side as well. Never having experienced his dark side, I remember Louis with real affection.

[kayemod]

There are some pretty heated feelings on the forum about Big Lou.......

Originally posted by MCS
But never once a bad word about Sid...

Most of what I know about Sid Taylor has come from TNF, a real wheeler dealer in the classic style, but nothing too bad apart from the Patrick Tambay F1 contract 'negotiations'. It has to be said though, that Pete Gethin told anyone who asked that the two shark emblems on his helmet represented Sid Taylor and Louis Stanley, both of whom he had first hand experience of as a driver. No smoke without fire...?

[rdmotorsport]

unfortunately I am away from my desk using the facilities of havant library but i can honestly say i never suffered or witnessed the "wicked" side of big Lou and must point out regarding Sid I quoted a probably tongue in cheek mention from BR which certainly stirred things up,but as i have previously said for my own reasons i am pleased to have worked for both Lou and Sid.

[Macca]

Havant library????? Snap!!! And so handy for Smith's............

I remember the BRM reunion at Donington in 1992 IIRC, where there were large numbers of ex-BRM mechanics, Tony Rudd, etc.........and Jean and Lou Stanley, not talking to any of them.

Paul M

[Doug Nye]

[kayemod]

Originally posted by Doug Nye

Come on Doug, don't just sit there feeling smug. You're going to have to spill a few beans and say something to dispel our cherished illusions of Louis Stanley's innate decency and niceness. He fooled Andrew, RD and me at the time, but he clearly never fooled you.

[Andrew Kitson]

Yes, but I was very young and didn't know any better!

[kayemod]

Originally posted by Andrew Kitson
Yes, but I was very young and didn't know any better!

I was barely out of teenage at the time myself, but that's no excuse.

[Michael Henderson]

My relationship with Louis Stanley was short but memorable. I had just finished my book on race safety in late 1967. At that time, he was stirring all kinds of muddy medical water around the world by insisting that drivers needed better injury care and taking his International Grand Prix Medical Service's vast pantechnicon to all the circuits (whether he was welcome or not). Way, way ahead of his time.

I sent him a copy of the proofs, and by way of a polite letter, I asked him to write a foreword for the book. I was summoned to the Cambridge mansion for a long evening's "chat", fundamentally an interview to see if I passed muster and knew what I was talking about. Apparently I did, and he wrote a most gracious and complimentary foreword, for which I was truly grateful.

I remember him fondly and with admiration for what he did for drivers' injury care, at a time when too many of them needed it.

[Doug Nye]

Originally posted by kayemod


Come on Doug, don't just sit there feeling smug. You're going to have to spill a few beans and say something to dispel our cherished illusions of Louis Stanley's innate decency and niceness. He fooled Andrew, RD and me at the time, but he clearly never fooled you.

Can you be so sure - it's quite easily done?

As Mike Henderson relates, there was a positive side.

DCN

PS - Greetings Michael - Cyril Posthumus and I ran your articles on motor racing in safety in 'Motor Racing' magazine, and I helped our former colleagues Pat Stephens and Darryl Reach when they were producing your life-changing/sport-changing book. Great piece of work, might I add, and one which plainly had infinitely greater influence and effect within 'our area' than almost any other book I can think of.

[Michael Henderson]

Doug - thanks very much for that. And I made an attempt to find you to follow up and thank you for your kind remarks in Octane last year, but I wasn't signed up for this forum at that time. I made sure your remarks on safety in historic racing were taken seriously down here. It does take a special kind of approach, so's we don't lose the point of racing these old cars. Simply throwing HANS devices at them ain't going to work.

Louis Stanley was very good to me. He made sure that Jackie Stewart had a harness in the BRM within a few days of our first "chat". His words to me, as I recall them, were to the effect that Stewart would have belts whether he wanted them or not. As you probably remember, Stanley had all kinds of difficulty with many entrenched medical ideas - and we can list a few drivers who died because of these attitudes. In his foreword he contrasted my "cheerfully enthusiastic" attitude with my "more morose medical colleagues", which I enjoyed. His pomposity could be punctured. I expect he appreciated Sid Watkins' iconoclasm.

[rdmotorsport]

At times I have probably been somewhat naive but in the seventies I felt F1 was changing and evolving at a great rate of knots and somehow not without effort and aspirations BRM seemed to be left behind.Louis had strange ideas and ideals at times I agree, i.e. silly little things like transportation it was obvious for space and ease every team seemed to have 40 foot artic units but BRM choice was always coach built rigid transporters plus with British engines and chassis which meant you needed more than one to get the Bourne circus to the circuits!,it was also obvious for many various reasons (but again,not effort) the home made V12 needed either a injection of bhp or a re think it was therefore suggested I believe by a very brave David Hepworth backed by a more nervous Stan Hope to both Louis and Mrs.Stanley to fit a DFV in the back of the P207 and in the mean time continue the developement of the V12 at first you could here a pin drop in the room then it was the female side of the Stanley marriage that erupted first followed by big Lou hence this combination never came to the circuit.What I am trying to say the Stanleys were English (probably not British because after JYS I feel his love of Scots had waned) the engine ,gearbox,transporter,tooling etc.etc. had to be England in fact a set of uprights were machined with a whitworth thread insert at one stage!
I feel it was probably all let down in the end by finance , the team always had good named sponsors on the side of the car which was due to Louis and his eloquence but I feel the payment for all this was less than people assumed or am I being naive again Doug?, and therefore although excellent and loyal staff were about developement funds were not, but still it was fun.

Rodney Dodson.

[rdmotorsport]

first to reply to Kayemod about the Bourne factory on reflection I suppose it was not prissy and clinical as a operating theatre but it was a engineering works in the full sense inasmuch all the manufacture and tooling was done in situation from engine builds to the manufacture of the drive chain etc. and the building itself was not young either but I know stories are put about of running a GP car from a lock up garage etc.,well some people did ask Frank Williams,plus McLaren was not the property it at present occupies but admit it was one of the better workshops , Uncle Ken ran his team from his woodyard and believe me it was a wood yard Mo Nunns Ensign team you could only park the race car in a certain area in the workshop because the roof leaked plus various other true stories but I do take your point,Bourne had its own aroma a mixture of 5 star and coolant fluid.Regarding the staff appearing older than other teams I suppose this could have been correct or perhaps we all looked older!,but majority of the staff were long standing loyal servants and had worked there for several years e.g.Stan Hope,Cyril Atkins but they were more youthful members around Allan Challis came through from apprentice to more or less running the racing side,Rob Fowler and Rick Hall are still in the sport running a successful renovation and rebuild business.Roger Bailey went on to run Indy lights in the states although the last time I heard from him he was ill(can anyone advise)?,but somehow the razmataz of F1 seemed to escape Bourne for instance we had Duckhams race day gear to look like we belonged to the same team but Alan Challis would then insist of wearing some moth eaten grotty sweater on top of these.
Finally come on Doug tell all,I know he was pompous at times,I know he could be arrogant(but I have been accused of this),I suppose I knew he could be devious but let us all know.

[KJJ]

I’ve read some of Mr Stanley’s books which I found repetitive and yes, pompous, but also interesting and insightful, otherwise I know nothing about the man. I do find this and the other thread somewhat Kafkaesque, we’ve certainly had the damning verdict but what on earth are the charges, never mind the evidence?

[Doug Nye]

Originally posted by rdmotorsport
Finally come on Doug tell all,I know he was pompous at times,I know he could be arrogant(but I have been accused of this),I suppose I knew he could be devious but let us all know.

Sorry - either other people will tell the story or - if spared - I will relate as much as I know in BRM Volume 4. Now is neither the right time, nor place.

DCN

[rdmotorsport]

Then will look forward to vol. IV

[ensign14]

Currently scheduled for 2019.

[rdmotorsport]

2019??? God I will be old by then!

[Sharman]

Bloody Hell! I'll be 82 by 2019, tell them they're wrong Doug., I'd hate to miss the real story. I wonder if there is any sort of communication between where I'll be and where Big Lou was convinced he was going.

[rdmotorsport]

doubtfull !

[Doug Nye]

2009 (ish) ?????

DCN

[rdmotorsport]

and God I will be old by then!

[DN5]

Originally posted by Doug Nye
2009 (ish) ?????

DCN

In a couple of years sounds so much better to my ears.

Still any sort of Vol 4 date is good news for me as it is the only volume I really want.

Geoff

[rdmotorsport]

why?

[Rob Ryder]

What about Vol.3 Doug???

[ensign14]

Originally posted by Rob Ryder
What about Vol.3 Doug???

Ah...the Force is strong in this one.

[rdmotorsport]

The pressure is on Doug

[Doug Nye]

Aaah, resistance - toujours resistance....

DCN

(Strangely enough, I just dialled on to TNF to see what troubles abound as a 5 min break from V3-ing... If this stuff was easy - or profitable - everybody would be doing it. But right now it IS on its way......As for "V4 is the only one I'm interested in" - oh thank you sooo much for the encouragement... )

[rdmotorsport]

mon plaisir (as they say in Huddersfield)!

[Catalina Park]

Doug, I would rather wait for a book that you are happy with than nag you into producing something that you don't like.
Keep up the good work.

[kayemod]

Originally posted by Catalina Park
Doug, I would rather wait for a book that you are happy with than nag you into producing something that you don't like.
Keep up the good work.

The way things are going, and with the apparent increasing frailty of some TNFs, perhaps BRM volumes 3 & 4 should be released in large print.

[Sharman]

Many a true word.......

[kayemod]

Originally posted by Sharman
Many a true word.......

And what about poor Doug? If he's spared, he'll probably have to write BRM volumes 3 & 4 in large print as well.

[rdmotorsport]

wonderful idea

[ian senior]

Originally posted by kayemod


And what about poor Doug? If he's spared, he'll probably have to write BRM volumes 3 & 4 in large print as well.

And can we have each forthcoming volume split into....volumes. Those big books are awfully heavy.

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by ian senior


And can we have each forthcoming volume split into....volumes. Those big books are awfully heavy.

Fascicles is the word. The OED came out that way originally (New! This month! Collect Pedantry to Pedestal! as they'd no doubt say these days), and so does that other much-delayed, much-expanded definitive work The Art Of Computer Programming, which is up there with BRM as a work of consuming passion... (Donald Knuth thought he could write everything known about the underlying maths and theory of computer programming in one volume in the early sixties. It's now 2007 and he's still writing.... mind you he did take nearly ten years out to design the most beautiful typesetting system in the world in the 70s...;))

[rdmotorsport]

To petefenelon,

God, now I am lost does involve steam and coal?

[Alan Cox]

Donington Superprix 1996 - BRM Celebration

Edited by Alan Cox, 03 May 2012 - 11:37.

[john winfield]

Donington Superprix 2006 - BRM Celebration

Good photos of Louis and Jean Stanley, Alan, but they must be earlier than 2006. Jean had a stroke in around 2000 I think, and died in 2002. Louis died in 2004.

[Alan Cox]

Good photos of Louis and Jean Stanley, Alan, but they must be earlier than 2006. Jean had a stroke in around 2000 I think, and died in 2002. Louis died in 2004.

Sorry John. My gaffe - Read 1996. Original post edited.

[Eric Dunsdon]

Donington Superprix 1996 - BRM Celebration

The day that they happily signed my copy of Mr Nye's BRM Volume 1.