32 replies to this topic

[Billbonney]

Can anyone assist, I am trying to put together an archive on the late Ralph E Stokes who was an English rally competitor of many year standing, from records we know that in the late 1920s he campaigned on two wheels, winning a gold medal on the 1928 Exeter Trial. We know his first Monte Carlo Rally was in 1933, after which he competed in a further 17 Montes. We believe his first RAC Rally was in 1951 and have evidence of him still competing in the 1966 event. He did many other rallies sometimes as driver sometimes as one of the co-drivers. One of the difficulties in finding information, is that he would often turn up at one of the starting points of the Monte Carlo armed with his international rally licence, his passport and some Francs and would 'negotiate' a seat in one of the competing cars as the third man, so on these occasions he did not appear in the events official Entry List.
Starting with the Monte Carlo Rally, we have full details for the following years. 1936, 1952, 1954, 1955, 1956, 1958, 1962 and 1966.
So we are seeking information on his rally number, co-drivers names and finish position for the following years. 1933, possibly he competed in the remaining pre war events, but we have no evidence to support this, 1951 (we know he navigated for Bertie Bradnack), 1953, 1960 (with L O Sims), 1961 (with Stephens), 1963, 1964 and 1965. We are not sure if he did in fact compete in 1963/64/65 but suspect he did.
Moving on to the RAC. We have full details for the 1951 event. In 1952 again he was with Bertie Bradnack in car 147 but we do not have finish position. In 1953 he was with W G Cawsey, car number 23 but again no finish position. In 1954 he was with L O Sims in car 158 but again no finish position. In 1955 we know he competed but have no other information. We have no information on the 1956/58/59 events and in 1960 he was again with W G Cawsey in car 23 but we do not have any results. We think he may have competed on later events but again have nothing to support that thought.
Sorry its so long winded but can anyone assist with filling in the missing detail, and any other information anyone can add about Ralph's rallying career?

[Fred Gallagher]

Sorry this doesn't answer any of your questions, but I remember Ralph competing with Bill Bengry on the first Phillip Young organised Pirelli Marathon in a Ford Cortina. I don't have my records in front of me so can't recall the year.

Ralph was very frail at the time but still competed enthusiasticaly. If you are interested in more details I will try to find them.

Fred

[Billbonney]

Thanks Fred, yes that was the 1988 Pirelli he and Bill competed in a Ford Cortina GT and were 75th overall, 13th in class. He went on to do the 2nd Pirelli in 1989 with Malcolm Per again in a Ford Cortina and managed 41st overall, 10th in class. He picked up the Spirit of the Rally Trophy for that one. One of his last events, he was in his 80s at that stage. I first came accross Ralph when he competed on our International Mobil Economy Runs where I was C of C. A very competitive driver but at the same time a real gentleman. Bill B

[Gary C]

I'm sure there was a BBC TV programme on one of those Pirelli Classics, and Ralph was certainly interviewed in it!

[jarama]

Bill,

I'm sorry, but after browsing through my database, I can't be helpful this time.


Carles.

[Ian McKean]

I seem to recall that Ralph Stokes also did a Monte with Bill Bengry

[RobertC]

Bill,

From the Rallye Monte Carlo - Two volume set I have found:

1951 finished 201st in car 228 - Ford Anglia and the interesting thing here the crew is listed as Stokes - Bradnack.

1953 finished 250th in car 213 - Allard P1 Saloon Wood - Stokes.

This book doesn't show him as finishing the 63/64 and 65 events.

I also have copies of the entry lists for the 63/64 and 65 events and I can't seem to find his name on these lists - though it's late and the printing is small!

Do you have any idea where he might have started from in these years and the cars he might have been in?

Having just seen Ian's post I can confirm that 1966 they started from London again listed as Ralph Stokes / W Bengry in a Ford Lotus Cortina. They are not listed as finishers

Regards

Robert

[jarama]

Originally posted by RobertC


Having just seen Ian's post I can confirm that 1966 they started from London again listed as Ralph Stokes / W Bengry in a Ford Lotus Cortina. They are not listed as finishers

Regards

Robert

I've them as finishers in 64th position o/a driving the Ford Lotus-Cortina #101.


Carles.

[Pete Stowe]

Some additional RAC Rally details:

1952 BE Bradnack (Jaguar) – 8th in class 1, Open Cars – no overall classification given, but on points lost this was also 8th best overall performance (Provisional results – Autocar 11.4.52).

1953 WG Cawsey & Mrs D Cawsey (Zephyr) - 89th o/a (Provisional results – Autocar 3.4.53)

1954 LO Sims (Riley) – 98th o/a (Results – Autocar 19.3.54)

1955 #96 PHG Morgan/RE Stokes (Morgan 1991cc) Hastings start. (Entry List Autocar 4.3.55).
“Peter Morgan also crashed with his Morgan, and had to abandon.” 1st day, Wales. (Autosport 18.5.55)

[Billbonney]

Thanks Robert. The Monte Carlo info fills in a couple of the holes. As regards the 1951 event it was my assumption that B E (Bertie) Bradnack was the driver because he was an accomplished racing driver and at the time was part of the BRM organisation at. I think he was Racing Team Manager. However now you have identified the car as a Ford Anglia it makes sense that Ralph was the driver, as it was his car.
Thanks for all the other information.
As regards the other Monte Carlo Rallies that Ralph competed in the only other clues I can add to the mystery is that I can now account for some of his numbered miniture rally plates, but I still have plates numbered 36, 216 and 223 that we cannot yet allocate to an event. As you know it was the norm to issue these miniture rally plates for the event that did not carry the year only the competition number.
Again thanks for your help so far. Best regards Bill

[Billbonney]

Thanks Pete for the info. on the RAC Rally. In fills in some of the holes.
Of particular interest was the info. on the 1955 event. We suspected he competed with Peter Morgan, as Ralph lived in Malvern just down the road from the Morgan factory and was friendly with the companies owner.
We know he competed on the 1956 event as we have his finishers lapel badge but have no information.
Again we know he competed in 1960, we think with W G Cawsey and again we have his finishers lapel badge and year bar, but no other information.
Thanks again for the information to date
Best regards, Bill

[Billbonney]

Having now started to sort the missing information regarding the Monte Carlo and RAC rallies can I ask another three questions.
Ralph Stokes competed in many other events and what I am sure of is the following.
He competed on the 1957 Lyon-Charbonnieres Rally and believe his rally number was 127 (we have a miniture rally plate bearing that number but again it does not have a year) so it may be for another year of the same event. We also have his finishers lapel badge for the 1957 event.
He competed in the 1956 Rallye Wiesbadon (we have his lapel pin for that event) but have no other information.
We know he competed in the 1957 International Rallye de Geneve (again we have his finishers lapel badge) but again have no other information.
Do any of you have records for these event that might give us more details? Again any assistance would be much appreciated.
Thanks, Bill

[Ian McKean]

Originally posted by RobertC

Having just seen Ian's post I can confirm that 1966 they started from London again listed as Ralph Stokes / W Bengry in a Ford Lotus Cortina. They are not listed as finishers

Regards

Robert

I believe this would have been Stoke's car as I am sure that Bill never had a Lotus Cortina. But as Bill never navigated I am sure that Bill would have been the main driver. Bill may also have prepared the car.


It is amusing how Bill appeared in rally results, yearbooks etc. as "W Bengry", because he was, of course, "A E Bengry" (Albert Edward).

[Billbonney]

Thanks Ian, yes I can confirm it was Ralph's car we still have the FIA papers for it. Did not know the details of Bill's correct name, thanks
Regards Bill

[Pete Stowe]

Originally posted by Billbonney
Again we know he competed in 1960, we think with W G Cawsey and again we have his finishers lapel badge and year bar, but no other information.

1960 RAC Rally. #23 Triumph – WG Causey & R Stokes (Entry list Autocar 18.11.60) – none of the magazines of the time appeared to carry the full results list, but they were not in the first 20 finishers.

He competed on the 1957 Lyon-Charbonnieres Rally and believe his rally number was 127 (we have a miniture rally plate bearing that number but again it does not have a year) so it may be for another year of the same event. We also have his finishers lapel badge for the 1957 event.

1957 Lyon-Charbonnieres Rally. Lyndon Sims & Ralph Stokes, Aston Martin DB2, retired, lack of brake fluid. (Autosport report 5.4.57 – they were mentioned several times in the report, which also has a rather fuzzy photo of the car, but it's not clear enough to make out the number.

[Billbonney]

Thanks Pete, that ties in with the fact that he often drove with Lyndon Sims, and I do have a report that Sims at that time had the Aston Martin rather than the Riley that he campaigned for a number of the previous years.
Best regards Bill

[David P]

I've just discovered this thread whilst searching for some Riley information (I'm the Riley Motor Club's archivist).

I can add that Ralph Stokes took part in the 1956 Monte Carlo Rally in a Riley Pathfinder with Lyndon Sims and Tom Bowns. It was car No. 166, registration No. KRX 820, the same car raced by Harold Grace in the GP support race at Silverstone in May of that year and driven in the Monthlery run in October 1955.

I have four photos of the car from the rally.

[Allan Lupton]

Originally posted by David P
I've just discovered this thread whilst searching for some Riley information (I'm the Riley Motor Club's archivist).

I can add that Ralph Stokes took part in the 1956 Monte Carlo Rally in a Riley Pathfinder with Lyndon Sims and Tom Bowns. It was car No. 166, registration No. KRX 820, the same car raced by Harold Grace in the GP support race at Silverstone in May of that year and driven in the Monthlery run in October 1955.

I have four photos of the car from the rally.

OT but I owned (and rallied) KRX 820 in 1961/2ish!
I understood that it was also the car that was part of the BMC visit to Montlhery when they got over 100 miles in an hour out of a number of their production cars, the Pathfinder IIRC getting 112 miles (and four-up to boot).
Was it the same car?

[David P]

Yes, it's the same car used at Monthlery.

We've a discussion going within the Riley Motor Club about the degree of tweaking Riley had done to it and a couple of other Pathfinders (KJB13 and KJB 280) that competed in 1955/56 which is how I came across this thread.

[RS2000]

I've just given an opinion to a Spanish poster on a French forum (on the basis of a very blurred long distance photo that seems to show a full width front bumper) that Sims' 1955 Monte car was an RMF (it had been captioned as a Pathfinder!). The only printed reference I've seen describes it just as an RM. Was I correct?

[Carles Bosch]

Originally posted by David P
I've just discovered this thread whilst searching for some Riley information (I'm the Riley Motor Club's archivist).

I can add that Ralph Stokes took part in the 1956 Monte Carlo Rally in a Riley Pathfinder with Lyndon Sims and Tom Bowns. It was car No. 166, registration No. KRX 820, the same car raced by Harold Grace in the GP support race at Silverstone in May of that year and driven in the Monthlery run in October 1955.

I have four photos of the car from the rally.

They managed to finish 65th o/a, but the third man, according to my database would be T. Bounds, instead of Bowns. I'm I wrong?


Carles.

[Billbonney]

I am not sure about the spelling of the third mans name. I have a good proportion of Ralph Stokes rally memorabilia and his 1956 Monte Carlo badge is still in its box on which Ralph has noted the following three names Sims, Stokes and Bawnes? The car is a Riley Pathfinder.
So over to you.
Bill Bonney

[David P]

Definitely Tom Bowns, I have his FIA Carte de Presentation dated 1962 and various other items bearing his name and signature.

[Billbonney]

David, thanks for the clarification, regards Bill

[David P]

Originally posted by Billbonney
David, thanks for the clarification, regards Bill

Bill,

I have a couple of photos of the '56 Pathfinder for you, one of which shows R Stokes name on the side of the car. Let me know where to email them.

Regards

David

[RS2000]

66 Monte results (less the "lights" exclusions!), showing Stokes/Bengry. You were still classified as a finisher then if you didn't make the final cut for the last leg (after the "common run" and the "mountain circuit").



IIRC penultimate finisher was an 848cc Automatic Mini ! (Margaret McKenzie/Joe Lowery)

[Billbonney]

RS 2000, Thanks for that information.

As regards Joe Lowrey he was soon to marry his co driver Margaret who is now Margaret Lowrey.

Have any of you information on the 1958 event, My records show Ralph with Sutherland again in a Riley, car number 177. But that is the extent of it.

In 1961 I have Ralph paired up with Stephens in a Mini Minor, the box his 'Equipier' badge is in is marked non finisher. Any more information on this one, such as car number and full name of driver?
Regards Bill

[robin2c4]

Hi Billbonney:

I have been getting help with the Sutherland brothers' Monte Carlo exploits on this forum for the last few days, and have only just made a link from them to R E Stokes which answers in part your question about Stokes' 1958 Monte Carlo participation. I realise I am chipping into this forum question 12 months late - I hope you are still browing the forum!

Stokes was in a Riley One-Point-Five owned by W R (Bertie) Sutherland, driving with Bertie and his brother Ian in the 1958 Monte. It was car number 177 leaving from Glasgow. The Sutherland brothers were based in the County of Sutherland, and the following local newspaper article from the time notes R Stokes as a driver and provides more background info.

http://www.northern-..._Years_Ago.html

You will also find some more information and a photo of the Riley 1.5 in which they competed in both 1958 and 1959 here. I don't think Stokes drove with them in 1959 though.

http://forums.autosp...p;#entry4075875

I'd be interested if you could elaborate on your comment that Stokes was driving in 1958 with "Sutherland again". Can you clarify when he drove with either Ian or Bertie Sutherland previously? (Actually, on re-reading your comment, I suspect you mean "again in a Riley".)

Thanks, Robin

Edited by robin2c4, 12 January 2010 - 19:53.

[RS2000]

You've just touched on a problem that has come up before on the Monte Carlo Rally. A lot of records of results etc. only list the first 2 named crew members. It was quite common to have 3 then. (but in a 1.5?? must have been cosy....)

[robin2c4]

They may (not sure) have had a mechanic along too - they certainly took a mechanic on some Montes. Might have been fine in the Pathfinder, but as you say tight for 3 (or maybe even 4) in the Riley 1.5.

[RS2000]

They may (not sure) have had a mechanic along too - they certainly took a mechanic on some Montes. Might have been fine in the Pathfinder, but as you say tight for 3 (or maybe even 4) in the Riley 1.5.

Well, even then, I'm sure everyone in the competing car would have had to be "signed on" as full crew members, although I think needing an International Competition Licence for this and other rallies only became a regulation about the mid-50s. Can't really recall reading of more than 3 in a crew. There was a "no-service" (ie. support vehicle) rule on some major rallies until even later but it may not have applied then.

[robin2c4]

A bit more info. here on Ralph Stokes, which I found on the Malvern Gazette website from their newspaper, quoted in Jan-2002;

50 years ago

Mr Ralph Stokes, the Malvern builder, is one of the co-drivers of Mr Bernard Bradnack, the well-known Walsall racing and rally driver, in the Monte Carlo rally. Mr Stokes has driven in several Monte Carlo rallies and was a co-driver to Mr Bradnack in last year's event. Malvern Gazette, January 18, 1952.

[plastictoad]

Can anyone assist, I am trying to put together an archive on the late Ralph E Stokes who was an English rally competitor of many year standing, from records we know that in the late 1920s he campaigned on two wheels, winning a gold medal on the 1928 Exeter Trial. We know his first Monte Carlo Rally was in 1933, after which he competed in a further 17 Montes. We believe his first RAC Rally was in 1951 and have evidence of him still competing in the 1966 event. He did many other rallies sometimes as driver sometimes as one of the co-drivers. One of the difficulties in finding information, is that he would often turn up at one of the starting points of the Monte Carlo armed with his international rally licence, his passport and some Francs and would 'negotiate' a seat in one of the competing cars as the third man, so on these occasions he did not appear in the events official Entry List.
Starting with the Monte Carlo Rally, we have full details for the following years. 1936, 1952, 1954, 1955, 1956, 1958, 1962 and 1966.
So we are seeking information on his rally number, co-drivers names and finish position for the following years. 1933, possibly he competed in the remaining pre war events, but we have no evidence to support this, 1951 (we know he navigated for Bertie Bradnack), 1953, 1960 (with L O Sims), 1961 (with Stephens), 1963, 1964 and 1965. We are not sure if he did in fact compete in 1963/64/65 but suspect he did.
Moving on to the RAC. We have full details for the 1951 event. In 1952 again he was with Bertie Bradnack in car 147 but we do not have finish position. In 1953 he was with W G Cawsey, car number 23 but again no finish position. In 1954 he was with L O Sims in car 158 but again no finish position. In 1955 we know he competed but have no other information. We have no information on the 1956/58/59 events and in 1960 he was again with W G Cawsey in car 23 but we do not have any results. We think he may have competed on later events but again have nothing to support that thought.
Sorry its so long winded but can anyone assist with filling in the missing detail, and any other information anyone can add about Ralph's rallying career?

Bill,
have just found this thread,my father was a life long friend (well 50 years) of Ralph he would be able to fill you in with a few snippets though as he is 84 he does not use the internet ! he showed me a picture of Ralph about to start on the Shelsley Walsh hill climb on a Motorcycle,probably his Brough or his Vincent.I also have a 1928 picture of Ralph with the Brough Superior owners including George Brough at the Lands End hotel.I also have a box of his maps that he used for navigating.
My father did navigate for him on a Rally in Wales (though i think it was the London Rally) in a Ford Anglia which Ralph promptly turned upside down in a ditch.I know he also finished second in a Tulip Rally.If you would like to contact my father then send me a mail.
Mike
p.s Ralph was not as the Malvern Gazette stated a builder as such,but owned a buiding company called Stokes,Hall and Wynne,Ralph was a property owner of a considerable amount of property in Malvern including my house at one time.

Edited by plastictoad, 15 August 2010 - 16:12.