23 replies to this topic

[Stephan]

Friendly request; please try to refrain from leading this thread into focussing on direct driver comparisons. Ty!

In a different thread, I got into some heated discussions about the ability of F1 drivers to improve speedwise over the years. In my opinion, a really good F1 driver will not take two years to get to their "best" level of driving their car around the circuit.

However, a driver could become better (and thus get better results), by getting more experience in for example setting up a car. They can also get mentally better, by not overdriving, and therefore make less mistakes.

But my point is that if a driver gets clearly beaten speedwise by his teammate, after around two years of experience driving an F1 car, it is highly likely that he is an inferior driver.

I wonder what your opinion on this matter is. How long does it take for a driver to unleash their full potential, and likewise, how much room for improvement does a driver have in general after about 25 - 30 races?

(Please, let's try to keep it civil and try to use actual driver names as little as possible!)

[Ross Stonefeld]

I think it only matters what they are doing in any given year. If someone was slow, or quick, 3 seasons ago, it doesnt matter.

[carbonfibre]

It depends on what ability.

If your not fast then it's most likely you will never be fast enough, although it can improve a little. If you are fast but inconsistent then you can improve a whole lot more.

I believe it was about Massa, to me he is the perfect example of someone who already was fast in his first season but way to inconsistent. He improved himself a lot in the 2005 and 2006 seasons. He got very consistent, made very little mistakes and still was very fast.

[jcbc3]

Originally posted by Stephan ...
However, a driver could become better (and thus get better results), by getting more experience in for example setting up a car. They can also get mentally better, by not overdriving, and therefore make less mistakes.
... [/B]

Niki Lauda.

[noikeee]

Raikkonen and Button seem to be the most obvious examples of current drivers who have improved a lot since they entered F1, which makes sense since they arrived to the category particularly young/inexperienced. Lately Massa does seem to have improved quite a bit too, but I'm not fully convinced yet.

Also, it's fairly hard not to bring direct driver comparisons into this, because what other way is there to judge a driver if not against his team-mate? Massa in 2006 suddenly became a future WDC contender for many, but surely that's related to having a Ferrari to drive?

[Stephan]

Originally posted by paranoik0

Also, it's fairly hard not to bring direct driver comparisons into this, because what other way is there to judge a driver if not against his team-mate? Massa in 2006 suddenly became a future WDC contender for many, but surely that's related to having a Ferrari to drive?

Because it is not my point to get this thread into a Driver A is better than Driver B thread; the point is if a driver does get better, speedwise.

So imagine the following situation; put a random F1 driver from today's grid back into the car they drove around their second / third season of F1, on all tracks. They cannot change the setup they used in that year, and track conditions are assumed to be completely similar. Give them a reasonable amount of time to practice and get used again to the car.

Wouldn't you be surprised if they were on average more than half a second faster than before?

[Ross Stonefeld]

No, especially not with the evolution of cars. Who knows what tricks they've discovered as the driving style required to pilot an F1 car has changed.

[noikeee]

Originally posted by Stephan


Because it is not my point to get this thread into a Driver A is better than Driver B thread; the point is if a driver does get better, speedwise.

So imagine the following situation; put a random F1 driver from today's grid back into the car they drove around their second / third season of F1, on all tracks. They cannot change the setup they used in that year, and track conditions are assumed to be completely similar. Give them a reasonable amount of time to practice and get used again to the car.

Wouldn't you be surprised if they were on average more than half a second faster than before?

Exactly the same car, the same setup? It'd probably be a miracle for him to suddenly pick up an extra half second. But if he's given a car that suited him better than before, and managed to work out a better setup, it's entirely possible.

Conditions in F1 are never as static as you're making them in this hypothetical situation.

[KWSN - DSM]

In F1 all drivers a very talented compared to the overall worldwide driver pool.

However some of the drivers in F1 stand out as being especially talented, and when put up against eachother some also are the least talented on the grid.

This is all very relative, as I truely think that all drivers making it to F1 are very talented racers.

Having said that, in their second season they have to deliver. If they are not "up to speed" in their second season, they will never get up to speed.

[Stephan]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
No, especially not with the evolution of cars. Who knows what tricks they've discovered as the driving style required to pilot an F1 car has changed.

Wouldn't you expect that driver input is pretty much maximized nowadays? Especially since the driver input in relation to total performance of the car has become much less than in the early days of F1?

[noikeee]

Originally posted by KWSN - DSM
In F1 all drivers a very talented compared to the overall worldwide driver pool.

However some of the drivers in F1 stand out as being especially talented, and when put up against eachother some also are the least talented on the grid.

This is all very relative, as I truely think that all drivers making it to F1 are very talented racers.

Having said that, in their second season they have to deliver. If they are not "up to speed" in their second season, they will never get up to speed.

I disagree.

Button had a pretty poor 2nd season, yet he's now the #1 driver of a top 4 team. Raikkonen was only marginally beaten in his 2nd season against Coulthard, but still he was beaten in his first 2 seasons against team-mates that while mildly good, were never fantastic. Now look at where Raikkonen is.

I think some drivers do take a long time to improve considerably. It might not look very fair to keep on F1 a driver that fail to impress in his first 2 seasons, especially given the huge amount of competition for F1 seats, but occasionally it is worth it.

[HBoss]

The first example that came to my mind (almost instantly) is of the 2000 and 2001 Coulthard being better than the 1998 one, for example. But I can never thoerize on when someone peaks and why. I guess things just begin to fit and fall together.



The one thing that I think is that drivers progress though they never get faster, only less mistake prone and more consistent.

[Stephan]

Originally posted by paranoik0


I disagree.

Button had a pretty poor 2nd season, yet he's now the #1 driver of a top 4 team. Raikkonen was only marginally beaten in his 2nd season against Coulthard, but still he was beaten in his first 2 seasons against team-mates that while mildly good, were never fantastic. Now look at where Raikkonen is.

I think some drivers do take a long time to improve considerably. It might not look very fair to keep on F1 a driver that fail to impress in his first 2 seasons, especially given the huge amount of competition for F1 seats, but occasionally it is worth it.

But in general, their is some sort of perception that remains after two seasons. You do not need to beat your teammate necessarily, but I expect that after two years there is some sort of lasting impression if a driver is "WDC material".

For me it boils down to this: having the speed to win the WDC should be clear within two years. I do not expect a F1 driver after two seasons of experience should have the potential to get much better pace wise. However, I do believe that the future will prove if you got the dedication, mental strength and opportunity to actually do it. Because the former two are something which can be worked on, a driver can get better by gaining experience. The last factor is something which may not always be in your own hands unfortunately.

[HBoss]

Out of curiosity, what impression did Mansell leave after his first two seasons?

[MortenF1]

...That he wasn't very good.

And another example, even if I know that we shouldn't point to specific drivers too much, Margeritis in DTM 2005 v 2006. Joke of the year 2005, then very stellar in 2006.

[Stephan]

Originally posted by race addicted
...That he wasn't very good.

And another example, even if I know that we shouldn't point to specific drivers too much, Margeritis in DTM 2005 v 2006. Joke of the year 2005, then very stellar in 2006.

But was Mansell concieved as slow, or just erratic? (I do not know this, I am 22 years old so didn't see Mansell race in his early years, although I know about Peter Warr's comment). Was Mansell beaten consistently by his teammates in his first two years?

And I specifically would like to talk about F1 drivers, because they are ought to be the best 20 drivers in the world, so they are expected to fullfill their potention quicker than less talented drivers.

[Clatter]

Most people would accept that a driver slows down toward the end of their career, so why can't they improve and become faster at the start?

[MortenF1]

Originally posted by Stephan


But was Mansell concieved as slow, or just erratic? (I do not know this, I am 22 years old so didn't see Mansell race in his early years, although I know about Peter Warr's comment). Was Mansell beaten consistently by his teammates in his first two years?

And I specifically would like to talk about F1 drivers, because they are ought to be the best 20 drivers in the world, so they are expected to fullfill their potention quicker than less talented drivers.

I didn't know myself (I'm born '79), so I sent a text to my "old man" and put the question to him ,and then answer was ,in full "that he wasn't very good". Had he not been down with the flu he might've been more concrete.

[HSJ]

Originally posted by Stephan



Wouldn't you be surprised if they were on average more than half a second faster than before?

There was documentary on Finnish TV not long ago, where Liuzzi, after being coached, could improve his lap times 1-2sec in a very short time (like within a week or whatever it was). He really thought he was on the limit before, but that turned out not to be the case. The same probably applies to every driver in the world. There's surprisingly big room for improvement. Now, different teams have different abilities to get the most of the drivers. This coaching that Liuzzi got was IIRC connected to what McLaren do with their drivers. They had de la Rosa in the documentary, for example.

So can a driver become much faster after his F1 debut? Absolutely. And I don't mean just through better setups or technical skills, but rather stuff like finding the fastest lines.

[giacomo]

Originally posted by Stephan
In a different thread, I got into some heated discussions about the ability of F1 drivers to improve speedwise over the years. In my opinion, a really good F1 driver will not take two years to get to their "best" level of driving their car around the circuit.

Modest interposed question: How exactly do you define the "best" speed level of a F1 driver?

[Limits]

Rate of progress from a certain point depends on the level you are at, relative your own maximum, at that certain point. Was it Doornbos who started racing extremely late? He is still young so I would imagine that if he at this point of his career is at the same level as someone who has raced since they were four, I would think that Doornbos would progress more than the other guy. It is also a dedication. Hard training, physical and mental, will prevent your reaction and concentration levels to drop and then you can use the experience and knowledge to go faster.

[Mauseri]

Originally posted by Clatter
Most people would accept that a driver slows down toward the end of their career, so why can't they improve and become faster at the start?

Very much mossible.

But there are peaking curves as many as there are drivers. Some driver may peak already in his first year. Some driver may peak every year. Some driver may have some separate peak periods on his F1 career.

I think speed and peaking is about:
-raw speed (constant for a driver, but may dissappear with age)
-focus (mental strenght to drive on the edge without making too many mistakes)
-learning (setting up the car, being thinking driver)

[Fortymark]

Of course drivers develope and improve.
Just think about the fact that they read and interpret
telemetri to become faster. Or they look at their teammate
and see where they gain speed/time compaired to themself (if they are slower)

Talent and car control is one thing but to combine it with experience
and adapting to the car to get the maximum out of the car/tyres isn´t done
in the first year I think.

[Peri_Piket]

It's pitty that Monteiro doesn't get a seat in F1.

IMO he is not so fast, but very mature and reliable ala D Hill.

Monterio would make the perfect pair with Liuzzi at Toro Rosso.
They would make the tale of the rabbit and the turttle in F1.