43 replies to this topic

[thomaskomm]

Hello!
I search infos about the Formula Vee race held before the GP of Germany Nürburgring 67.
In this year before every GP in Europe (Monaco, France and Spa) they held a Formula Vee race with all European FVee Driver. If you know something about the race can you post them?

Thank you very much

Thomas

[Rob Semmeling]

This could be of help:

http://www.histo-for...en/historie.htm

[Martin Roessler]

hmm... i have a few colour slides of Formula Vee cars at the ring which i have not identified yet...i will post them soon....not sure about the year though...
cheers marty

[Martin Roessler]

no idea who it is or what event...
cheers marty

[ErleMin]

Without wishing to state the obvious (well its obvious to me anyway), 2nd & 3rd cars appear to be Fuchs & the 4th is an Apal.

[thomaskomm]

Thank you very much for your reply,
the first photo is perhaps a Beach the rectangle rollbar is a indiz. The second photo is a Fuchs and the third too, the fourth foto is Team apal. Perhaps is this GP Germany 67. Wow, the first time i see such fotos.
Rob, thank you for your link the very first time to read about this race!! I stunned about the fact that about the FVee Europe in the sixties it doesn´t exist results or other data base...but you guys are absolutely amazing!

Thomas

[ErleMin]

Thomas, I've got some early Vee Europe magazines & stuff if you want copies.

[Rob Semmeling]

I'd say Martin's photos are either from 1965 or 1966, not later.

@ErleMin: I'd certainly be interested in those as well!

[thomaskomm]

Originally posted by ErleMin
Thomas, I've got some early Vee Europe magazines & stuff if you want copies.

ErleMin,
yes i have great interests in copy, i have Europe maganzin stuff too about Monace 67 and Spa 67

Thomas

[thomaskomm]

Originally posted by Rob Semmeling
I'd say Martin's photos are either from 1965 or 1966, not later.

@ErleMin: I'd certainly be interested in those as well!

Rob, i believe the Fuchs Formula Vee from Heinz Fuchs formerly Porsche worker, was built late 1966, maybe winter 66/67, than it must the GP 67 Nürburgring track section beginning of the Karussell. Fuchs had his first Vee built in 1965, the famous and better Vee Fuchs was his second Vee, the Vee on the photo. it was a very good balanced Vee race car a simply and light chassis.

Rob your Südschleife site is one of my alltime favourite sites. All your stuff is on my HD.

Thomas

[Manfred Cubenoggin]

I recall an issue of Road & Track magazine from around this time...the very early days of FVee...with its coverage of the German GP from the Ring. The article featured a photo of the prelim FVee race and a terrific scrap between one Peter Peter and a certain...Niki Lauda. Be great to see a scan of the pix again.

[Keir]

Pics would be nice !!

[barrykm]

Looks like great fun..!!

[CeliFan]

Originally posted by thomaskomm


ErleMin,
yes i have great interests in copy, i have Europe maganzin stuff too about Monace 67 and Spa 67

Thomas

Spa 67 was the first FV race of Aldo Celi driving his AGB
Is he mentioned in the magazine?
I'm very interested because I make a website about Celi Cars.
Celi Cars

Thank You,
Dirk

[thomaskomm]

Hi Celifan,
Very good site, your Celi, yes i have about the 67 spa race a article, before the legendary GP Belgium 67 started there was a European Vee race. track record for a vee was 5 minutes and 7 seconds = 164,8 km/H on the old Spa circuit, Günter Huber drove this lap with his famous AustroVee, they reached top speed with their 55 - 56 HP engines about 200 km/h on the masta straight, One German driver died with his Vee on the Stavelot turn, he was too fast. As an result they said next year they wanted to drive on the Zolder track.

[CeliFan]

Hi Thomas,

Thanks !

I think the Spa was way to fast for some of the early FV-frames which were designed for 1200cc 40 hp engines.

[eukie]

Race report & the official results (from automobilsport 9/1967)





Sorry, no pictures.

[thomaskomm]

Thank you Marco for your reply.
They drove 5 laps 115 km a whole FVee race! Wow, what a great race! and they was very fast then you must consider that this cars had only max. 56 HP.

Thomas

[Rob Semmeling]

Thank you, Marco. Very interesting read. Formula Vee seems to be rather underappreciated these days. A database with results is still missing, unfortunately. Maybe one day I'll start one myself.

@Thomas: drop me an e-mail, I'm sure we can exchange some interesting stuff.

[Keir]

A Vee race today at the 'Ring would be a great event. I'd ceratinly be interested in driving in it !!

[ErleMin]

In celebration of Formel Vau 40th anniversary last year we were lucky enough to take our current Vees round the Nordschleife in convoy - no overtalking. It was like a rollercoaster ride!

[ErleMin]

In celebration of Formel Vau 40th anniversary last year we were lucky enough to take our current Vees round the Nordschleife in convoy - no overtaking. It was like a rollercoaster ride!

[Bonde]

Interesting thread!

The F-Vee lap times around the old 'Ring are amazing, considering the rather feeble engines and the, uhm, less than optimum suspension. It must've been an absolute blast!


Martin,

Could you repost the photos from post #4? They seem to have disappeared...



ErleMin,

I'd also love to see copies of old F-Vee magazine stuff! I have a soft spot for F-Vee and its roots, for some reason. Was Huber's car all his own design, or did he use bits from other Vees?


CeliFan,

Nice site! I find the monocoque cars particularly interesting. I remeber seeing one or two Celis at a Bruxelles racing car show way back in 1973 or 1974. Too bad I didn't have a camera back then...

[thomaskomm]

Originally posted by Bonde
Interesting thread!

The F-Vee lap times around the old 'Ring are amazing, considering the rather feeble engines and the, uhm, less than optimum suspension. It must've been an absolute blast!


Martin,

Could you repost the photos from post #4? They seem to have disappeared...



ErleMin,

I'd also love to see copies of old F-Vee magazine stuff! I have a soft spot for F-Vee and its roots, for some reason. Was Huber's car all his own design, or did he use bits from other Vees?

All i can say (i´m not ErleMin, but nevertheless), i have an old Auto, Motor Sport Test about acceleration and top end about an 67 Formula Vee. It was Huberts 1966 original AustroVee.
Believe it was an normally Austrovee with an strong 1300 engine rated 56 DIN HP. Was bad condition on the new Hockenheimring back in January 68. Saw on this car not unusual stuff.
A simple Austrovau, similiar with the Beach.[COLOR=darkred]
Thomas





CeliFan,

Nice site! I find the monocoque cars particularly interesting. I remeber seeing one or two Celis at a Bruxelles racing car show way back in 1973 or 1974. Too bad I didn't have a camera back then...

[Bonde]

Martin,

Lovely period colour shots of those classic Vees at the 'Ring (taken at one of the carrousels, I think)

There are some interesting old Vee articles here: http://www.oldspeed....es/formule.html select 'FORMULE V' and 'Articles de presse'.

[CS Merrill]

I saw this race in 1967 supporting the first GP that ihad ever seen and was fascinated with these little buzz boxes.

I worked at McNamara Cars in 1968 and 1969 building Formula Vee and F3.

In 1968 the F Vee race at Nurburgring a Mc/namara sebring Mk1 was entered and driven by Peter Aurndell, formerly team mate to Jin Clark at Lotus. I can not remember where he finished, but he did become the racing manager at McNamara's.

The Sebring Mk1 was later to be driven by Guther Huber, Helmut, Marko and Verner Reidel.

I have recovered the 1969 Sebring Mk1 that was owned by Andre Pilette, and raced to the Belgium championship that year driven by Jean-Charles Goris. The car is undergoing restoration and planned to be raced in the UK 750 Motor Club during the 40th annirversary of Formula Vee in the UK this year.

A footnote! August 3rd 1969 Helmut Marko lapped the old ring (22.835Km) in 9 minutes and 51 seconds, in a sebring Mk1. The frist F Vee under 10 minutes.


Any one with pictures or parts of McNamara cars please contact me.

[Ralliart]

In the November '69 issue of Road & Track, Jonathan Thompson covered it with photos by himself, Geoffrey Goddard and Tom Bates. VWoA sent six American FV drivers, their cars and crews to Germany with the main change was to go up from 1200-1300cc. Helmut recorded the first Vee time under 10 minutes (9:59.4/85.2 mph) as did Martin Marragia of Switzerland. Bill Campbell on a ZRM crashed, car could not be repaired in time for the race.
Internationales Formel V-Rennen um Den Continentel-Preis
3 August 1969
6 laps=85.08 miles
Starters: 53
Finishers: 41
Winner's Avg Speed: 85.3 mph
FL: Marko 9:51.7/86.26 mph
1 Helmut Marko AUS McNamara Sebring 59:47.8
2 Niki Lauda AUS Kaimann 1:00:03.1
3 Peter Peter AUS Austro V
4 Bill Scott USA McNamara Sebring
5 Alfred Voglberger GER Olympic V
6 Fritz Bohler GER Austro V
7 Wolfgang Bulow GER McNamara Sebring
8 Lothar Schork GER Austro V
9 Manfred Schurti LIC Austro V
10 Ray Weaver USA Beach
11 Dieter Basche GER Kaimann
12 Hannelore Werner GER Olympic V
13 Jim McDaniel USA Zink
14 Roland Muller GER Fuchs
15 Seppo Pitkanen FIN Austro V
16 Gunther Steckkonig GER Eigenbau
17 Bill Greer USA Zink
18 Reiner Braun GER Mcnamara Sebring
19 Lars Berger SWI HAS
20 Joachim Duker GER Kaimann
25 Steve Pieper USA Zink
DNF Harry Ingle USA Zink (w/double roll bars and a horn "to toot slower cars")

[Rob Semmeling]

Here's a photo of the great American Formula Vee driver Bill Scott during said race in 1969:



Ralliart, any chance you could scan the R&T article?

[Bonde]

For a Formula Vee, the McNamara Sebring was a quite sophisticated device, with twin rear radius rods (rather than the more prevalent "hairpin" trailing arm), Z-bar, and a nasal intake that actually fed cooling air to the engine bay, IIRC.

IMO, the rulemakers should have allowed cutting down the damper towers (horns) from 1967 when they allowed the 1300 engine and ball joint front suspension in Europe (they finally allowed the tower trim from 1972 IIRC) - the newer front damper tower was a lot more conspicuous than the older pre-1965 link-pin variant, which remains, faithful to the original 1963 SCCA F-Vee rules, along with the 1200 engine and drum brakes - though with Formula First leaping to "newer" Type 1 technology).

Apart from those front damper towers, that McNamara is, IMO, a very good looking late 1960s single seater, with a certain Brabham styling influence.

[ErleMin]

thomaskomm, Huber's car was an Austro. Porsche (Austria) bought a number of Vees from Eugene Beach (& Formcars) and at some stage developed their own Vees called Austros (chassis first using Beach bodywork then their own bodywork, I think). It loooks like Huber's car had Beach bodywork at this stage. A lot of early Vee constructors used the Beach body originally too.

[CeliFan]

Originally posted by Bonde

CeliFan,

Nice site! I find the monocoque cars particularly interesting. I remeber seeing one or two Celis at a Bruxelles racing car show way back in 1973 or 1974. Too bad I didn't have a camera back then...

Both years monocoque Celi's were shown at the Bruxelles Racing Show.
In 1973 the black AC8 from Bernard de Saint-Hubert and in 1974 an AC10 of which I found a nice picture last friday!

Celi AC10

Hope this helps your memory ;)

Nice to have a thread on Formula Vee, thanks Thomas!

Dirk

[Andretti Fan]

Originally posted by Manfred Cubenoggin
I recall an issue of Road & Track magazine from around this time...the very early days of FVee...with its coverage of the German GP from the Ring. The article featured a photo of the prelim FVee race and a terrific scrap between one Peter Peter and a certain...Niki Lauda. Be great to see a scan of the pix again.

And Lauda would later take an interest in the career of Peter's son, Philip I think it is. I think he tried to run a couple of CART races several years ago. I remember him having a few races in Indy Lights.

[thomaskomm]

Originally posted by CeliFan


Both years monocoque Celi's were shown at the Bruxelles Racing Show.
In 1973 the black AC8 from Bernard de Saint-Hubert and in 1974 an AC10 of which I found a nice picture last friday!

Celi AC10

Hope this helps your memory ;)

Nice to have a thread on Formula Vee, thanks Thomas!

Dirk

Oh yyeeesss sir!
The Vees in the siexties was the ideal racing show! They drove in pulks no one was way faster than the other and cost was relativ low! ErleMin, yes Huschke von Hanstein and Ferry Porsche bought 10 vees Formcar and Beach and the Austrovau was the development from the Beach. The Beach had the Boat shape really nice construction. Unfortunately under the Europe vee rules wasn´t strong and they changes every year the engine rules. The Nürburgring lap time from 1969 with under 10 minutes lap for Lauda and Marko it wasn´t the same engine configuration than previous year. Compression was for example 1970 raise to high and the vee cylinder heads had the hemi round with machining raise to 80 HP. The engine was then not durable and cost raising...the Supergau was then the unlucky Formula Supervee. Way to expensive for the privateer and hobby racer, in USA and Australia the Vee gurus beware the old rules until today!
The greatest races was the Nürburgring summer race and the Winter Daytona formerly Nassau Speed week, there was legend races example Jochen Rindt 1966, 1964 Bruce Mclaren, Jean-Pierre Beltoise and so on... The races in the USA the fvee racers can earned real money! The Hubert Brundage race the winner earned 10 000 $! 3000 FVee raced in 1969 in USA!


Hope the thread goes on..

Thomas

Thomas

[ErleMin]

UK Formula Vee is celebrating its 40th Anniversary at Brands Hatch on 28/29th July this year. We have races for UK Vee and Irish Formula Vee and German Formel Vau Championships. We also have a historic race and hope to attract Vee racers from UK, Ireland, Germany, Holland, Belgium, Finland, South Africa, Australia, New Zealand and the US. Paul Schiemer is hoping to bring the Nardi (the original prototype Vee) to that event and to the Goodwood Festival of Speed.

[Bonde]

It's great to see Formula Vee receive some of the attention it deserves, both in TNF and in The Real World. Formula Vee was a good idea and it has been the starting point for many a motorracing career. Even with its gawky technology and unusual aesthetics, and sometimes muddled rules, it has always provided close and (nearly) affordable racing for thousands of drivers, with or without career ambitions. Long may it prosper!

However, I'm enough of an Olde Farte to not really appreciate the (too) fat 13" tyres on US Formula First and the water cooled in-line Polo engine used in Germany and South Africa. Vees should only ever have aircooled pancake engines, even if Brazilian. Currently the best Vee rules in my opinion, in spite of many a TNFers misgivings about CAMS, are the Australian Formula First (Vee 1600) rules.

Vees rule OK

CeliFan,

Thanks for stirring happy memories. IIRC correctly, one of the Celis (pehaps in 1973) was used to display a Sicli plumbed-in extinguisher system. I always liked the pronounced wedge shape of the Celis, and their sturdy monocoques.

[Jacer]

Hi guys,great thread! I've got many copies of the old 'Vee Line' magazine from the USA in the 60's and some of the $$$'s these guys were running for is crazy. I was reading of a Bahama Vee grand prix in late 67with the winner pocketing $8000!.One of those Formcars from Porsche made its way to Australia in late 67/ early68. Local Driver Bernie Haehnle spotted the kit during a visit home in a storage area at Porsche and did a deal to bring it down under. It's alive and well here and will undergo a resoration sometime soon .for the new historic Vee class here
David

[thomaskomm]

Originally posted by Bonde
It's great to see Formula Vee receive some of the attention it deserves, both in TNF and in The Real World. Formula Vee was a good idea and it has been the starting point for many a motorracing career. Even with its gawky technology and unusual aesthetics, and sometimes muddled rules, it has always provided close and (nearly) affordable racing for thousands of drivers, with or without career ambitions. Long may it prosper!

However, I'm enough of an Olde Farte to not really appreciate the (too) fat 13" tyres on US Formula First and the water cooled in-line Polo engine used in Germany and South Africa. Vees should only ever have aircooled pancake engines, even if Brazilian. Currently the best Vee rules in my opinion, in spite of many a TNFers misgivings about CAMS, are the Australian Formula First (Vee 1600) rules.


[COLOR=blue]Very good point bonde, the Australian FFirst made a very good job, cause they adopted the fan, made a plate to balancing PCI and PICT Caburettors and they have (quote a australian Vee racer) about 50 HP on the rear wheels!! And with low cost!! The engine is very stock they have the original Cam! My mind very amazing and a lowcost formula for the future, would you mind too?

Thomas[/COLOR]




Vees rule OK

CeliFan,

Thanks for stirring happy memories. IIRC correctly, one of the Celis (pehaps in 1973) was used to display a Sicli plumbed-in extinguisher system. I always liked the pronounced wedge shape of the Celis, and their sturdy monocoques.

[ErleMin]

Interestingly, UK still uses the 1300cc engine & free cam (originally defined in European regs in '67) but certain rule changes have been made over the years to retain the low-cost nature of the formula - Dunlop control tyres, standard gear ratios & air restrictor. The only major diversification from '67 was the disposal of the fan & tinware in '73 to make it more aethetically appealing or less unappealing! For reasons which are partly due to stability of the regs this has become the most popular single seater single-class championship in the world.

[Martin Roessler]

just remembered that i have a documentary about the Formula Vee.
i bought it ages ago at the "Historischer Filmservice"
they don't seem to have it in stock anymore : it's an interesting film about the beginning in germany from 1965 - 70's with some nice inboard footage of a vee going around the nordschleife...
have to watch it again.....

cheers marty

[Raido]

Sorry to see most of the picture attachments in this thread seem to be lost. Pity, anyone still have these?


Always interested in classic Formula Vee data now that the old Vees have been digitally reconstructed and so much fun to race (Keir and other Vee fans, if you'd want to drive the Nassau Speed weeks or the Ring in an old V again, today you can! And the Südschleife is in the works as well...)

[ErleMin]

I prefer the real thing though I haver never tried the "digitised" version.
Dag nabbit! I've just been outbid on a copy of the DVD that Martin Roessler mentions.

[Raido]

Hi Erle, you can order the sim online for a couple of $, but the Vee mod itself is free.

http://www.rfactorce...I...ula Vee 1.0

(Like the F.Ford and F2 mods as well - nearly all simulated car types and tracks are free, as it happens.) So far, it has gotten good feedback from several real life Vee drivers. I know Christian Hinz drove it, but don't know whether other historic Vee participants use it for practice too.


...Anyway, anyone still have the articles mentioned above, perchance?

[donjaun14]

hello I'm new to this web site, but as to the topic here the formula vee race for the germangp . I have the 10th place car driver by Ray weaver,

[Ray Bell]

Welcome to the forum, donjuan14...

Perhaps you can post an introduction to yourself in the 'Introduce yourself' thread towards the top of the page?

Let us know who you are and what your background and interest involve. And where you're from, of course.