40 replies to this topic

[doc knutsen]

My C-type Jaguar replica is due to go to the painter's this Monday, and I asked the paint honcho to look up Jaguar BRG..... he just called to say there were at least five different shades. And a search for BRG threw up 24 shades. I am looking for the very dark green used on the works racing C-types and D-types.
Does anybody have the correct colour code for a modern equivalent? We are not allowed to use cellulose any more, but I am told that the people in the paint shop are able to mix a two-pack to give a slightly mattish finish much like the appearance of cellulose. But I want to get the shade of green exactly right. Can anybody help?

[tonyb]

I obtained a chart by FAX from the JDHT some years back and put it on the Jag-lovers site - it may be of help to you - it covers the 120-150 specifically, I suppose it's possible the work's 120Cs were different though:

http://www.jag-lover...ary/xk_colours/

If that isn't enough, I suggest you mail Anders at the JDHT and see if he has any more specific info that may help you:

aclausag@jaguar.com

I can ask a friend who has XKC 004 if he knows but will take a day or so.

Hope that helps.

[doc knutsen]

Thank you very much. I have e-mailed Mr Clausager, I am not absolutely certain that the road-going Jaguars' shade of BRG was like the colour sported by the works racing cars. Any help from your C-type owner friend would be much appreciated.

[tonyb]

Originally posted by doc knutsen
Thank you very much. I have e-mailed Mr Clausager, I am not absolutely certain that the road-going Jaguars' shade of BRG was like the colour sported by the works racing cars. Any help from your C-type owner friend would be much appreciated.

Hopefully I'll have a code a bit later when he's checked his notes. He got the original shade and then had ICI make up a matching two-pack.

[Mal9444]

Doc
I think the fact is - there is no simple, single colour. Jaguar used a variety of shades of green, even for their works cars - I say this partly from recalling works cars seen in my (very) young days, and partly from both contemporary and more recent photos. I recall C-types as being a fairly mid green, while certainly the D-types of 1954 and 1955 were so dark as to appear almost black. In fact, when I first saw OKV2 and OKV3 in the flesh (so to speak) I thought they were black - then realised they were in fact a colour I was told was 'bottle green'. (I hesitate to say this in open forum, but I know you will know the colour instantly - the same colour as an RUC officers tunic!)

Oddly, some of the recent issues of 1/43rd-scale C-types models (such as the Quartzo Moss 619 Mille Miglia car of 1952) really are pretty accurate. The green is much more 'green' than the D-type colours.

[doc knutsen]

Ahah! That is interesting, it leaves me rather more free to choose a very dark green close to that seen
on the works D-types, which I recall as being almost black (as ares the 1:18 scale C-type models by Auto Art, with both the 1951 LM winner and the 1953 LM ditto sporting the same shade of dark green).

[RTH]

I know exactly the shade you have in mind I have used it myself

British Racing Green (Jaguar)

1953-1963 IPIC Code BO 187

Glasurit 2 pack formulation for 1 litre

A 804...............458 gms
A806................780 gms
A808................973gms
A836.................985gms

But as always do test, check and verify colour first before painting the whole car.

Hope this will be of some help to your painters, they may need a formulation from their own paint manufacturer.

It is such a dark and slightly muddy shade of green in a photo it often looks almost black but especially in bright sunlight is a very pleasing shade of green

This Ralt is painted in this shade



Don't go for any matting agent , you will be disappointed in the final result . polished cellulose was shiny. Your Jaguar will look fabulous and authentic in this.

Why not post up a photo here on Tuesday in the paint shop just off the gun still in the masking under the bright booth lights ?

[tonyb]

Originally posted by doc knutsen
Thank you very much. I have e-mailed Mr Clausager, I am not absolutely certain that the road-going Jaguars' shade of BRG was like the colour sported by the works racing cars. Any help from your C-type owner friend would be much appreciated.

Doc

The code seems to have gone AWOL within the time-frame you need. Looks like you have enough info now though from others - possibly Anders might come back to you in time if you wanted to double check.

I'd be interested to know if he says that the racing cars were the same BRG shade as the production ones. If you want, I could PM you his telephone number, if he's not there someone at the JDHT should be able to help you....

[doc knutsen]

Once again, many thanks for those who helped me. The colour of the Ralt in RTH's posting is gorgeous, and just what I had in mind. My tame paint guru has been informed, and the car goes into the spray booth to-morrow. I will try to get a picture and publish it here.
Having decided that the car needs an intake air scoop as per the 1953 Weber-equipped cars, I had a busy week-end fabricating, fitting, filling and priming the scoop. And it really does look the part, I think.
The engine assembly will re-commence very shortly, with new forged 3.8 pistons just having arrived at my door, courtesy of the good Mr. Beere of Coventry, who also supplied the intake manifold for triple 45DCOEs, the rear crankshaft oil seal conversion, the rally spec camshafts and the light steel flywheel.
The engine is a 3.8 bored 40thou, and the cylinder head is a genuine C-type item. At the moment I am missing a wiring harness and suitable brake callipers (std Mk II discs are fitted). Anybody have any experience with suitable uprated callipers for classic Jaguars? In view of the power of the car, and my plans to enjoy it in traffic during the summer months, I would like to uprate the brakes.

[RTH]

Welcome, look forward to seeing the pictures. I know someone who has had a C-Type kit in his garage now for over 20 years.........and still has not started on it !

[Mal9444]

Originally posted by RTH
Welcome, look forward to seeing the pictures. I know someone who has had a C-Type kit in his garage now for over 20 years.........and still has not started on it !

sounds a bit like me... and mine are only 1/43rd scale!

[doc knutsen]

Well it is finished, and back in my workshop, the colour looks absolutely spot on. Many thanks to those who came up with advice, much appreciated. Tried to post an image here, but my new Firefox did not think it is a good idea so would not let me...will have another go at it to-morrow.

[knutspeed]

It's yer babywatcher Internet Security software making life hard for you, not firefox

A few pics:




more photos here: http://www.shag.no/scase.asp?gid=30

[RTH]

Looks fantastic Doc !............I want one !

[doc knutsen]

Originally posted by RTH
Looks fantastic Doc !............I want one !

Thank you very much. Yes it does look the part, I think, even if it is only a "phake"
Still, we should be able to enjoy proper motoring in it. Hopefully,it will be ready for its licence plates
this Summer. I have sourced the licence number from my Dad's XK 150-engined Mk V (which was unfortunately chopped to bits in 1965, nobody wanted a rusty old Jaguar in the mid-Sixties) and secured it for the C-type replica, A-4529. With a bit of luck, we should make it to Goodwood for the Circuit revival. Any TNF people spectating on the Lavant straight are most welcome to inspect it if I succeed

[David Birchall]

Doc, is this alloy or f/glass bodied? Looks gorgeous either way.

[doc knutsen]

Originally posted by David Birchall
Doc, is this alloy or f/glass bodied? Looks gorgeous either way.

Front section is glassfibre, the rest is aluminium. I just needed a few more piggy banks than were available when deciding on the bodywork....
I will, however, eventually get the front end done in alloy as well, I just decided to spend the money on getting a really good engine and otherwise first-class running gear so as to be able to enjoy classic style motoring even in to-day's traffic. It has got solid brake discs and a live rear axle, but with slightly more modern brake callipers and shock absorbers for peace of mind.

[RTH]

If you drive down to Le Mans from Calais particually on the Friday morning using the old back roads through Rouen, you get passed by waves of fabulous looking cars from Britain including C-Types D-Types and open 20s Bentleys. It is a real part of the enjoyment of the weekend.

[RTH]

A new C-Type Coupe replica ?

http://www.pistonhea...p?storyId=16048

What do you think ? A recreation of a car that was never made !!

[doc knutsen]

Originally posted by RTH
A new C-Type Coupe replica ?

http://www.pistonhea...p?storyId=16048

What do you think ? A recreation of a car that was never made !!

I know that the Gregson people were thinking in terms of a C-type Coupe for some time. But now they have moved to Poland and the equipe is known as Gregson Polska SA.. presumably, this means the Proteus name stays in Britain.

[Mal9444]

I’m reviving this thread with this post, rather than starting a new thread, to demonstrate that I have at least tried to do some homework on the search engine…

I’ve recently acquired a 1/43rd scale of the 1951 Le Mans-winning Walker/ Whitehead car, no 20 in the picture. Compared with other C-type models that I have both by the same (Brumm) and different makers, this model is a much darker green than models of the ’52 and ’53 cars. It is more or less the same dark green as the works D-types were painted. The number 17 car, a more mid-green colour, is the 1953 Moss Le Mans car.



Can anyone tell me, please, if this ’51 C-type model is colour-correct – or has the maker just used their usual shade of Jaguar green (which, for the D-types, is pretty accurate)?

And while I’m asking – does anyone have, or know where I might get, a photo of Moss’s 1951 Le Mans/ Dundrod car that would show the car – XKC 002 – in its Dundrod trim? Specifically, did it carry a road registration number and if so what was it? I have looked in the usual sources at my disposal (Doug’s book, the John Moore Dundrod book, Paul Skilleter’s Jaguar the sporting heritage, etc: I do not have the pre-’54 volume of Andrew Whyte’s book.) In the Moore booklet there is a side-on view but this does not show the front of the car. In Paul’s book there is a picture of the three Le Mans cars ready to set off to drive to France and all three have strap-on trade plates. Presumably the practice of individually road-registering the cars came later?

I would assume that for Northern Ireland Jaguar would take off the red-white-and-blue roundels and the GB plate.

As anyone who has read this far might surmise, I wish to modify the model to represent Moss at Dundrod in ’51.

Thank you.

[D-Type]

The red white and blue roundels would definitely have gone. They were used at Le Mans to show which cars were eligible for the Biennial Cup.

Don't trust Brumm to be dead accurate - they are enthusiasts but not always that hot on historical accuracy.

[Mal9444]

Duncan - thank you. I was unaware of the significance of the roundels at Le Mans. Oddly (or perhaps not oddly!) the DB Panhards racing at Dundrod used them to signify (I assume) French national colours, though sometimes a small French tricoleur was used instead.

And indeed I am not trusting Brumm - hence my question. My belief is that the green used is too dark for a C-type, though not for a D-type but I confess I have nothing on which to base that belief but the colour schemes of the C-types seen at the Revival and elswhere. I can remember the D-type colours at Dundrod in period, though: so dark a green as on a dull day to appear black. I attended the '54 and '55 TTs, but not '51 or '53 which were C-type years. Again, hence my question.

[doc knutsen]

The C-type replica is proceeding nicely, although not quite in accordance with the timescale I had optimistically foreseen when I started this thread. I suppose a bit of a progress report might be of interest to those who took part in the discussion of the correct shade of green for this car.

The 3.8 engine was installed in May of 2007, courtesy of Rob Beere's parts emporium, and Jaguar engine specialist Finn Pettersen of Sarpsborg in Norway (the man whose own car is an XK 150 FHC...powered by Jaguar V12, no less) after some delay sourcing a Gold Top cylinder head to match the mounting bolt pattern of the Beere Weber inlet manifold (the original C-type head has a different pattern) but eventually it all came good and the engine was run-in on the bench. It features triple 45DCOEs, Beere road/rally camshafts, Beere lightweight steel flywheel and crankshaft oil seal modification.

At this stage, the Jaguar was put under its dust sheet for a short break due to the racing season looming...and it stayed there for 12 months while I ran my Hartwell lookalike Imp, my son Matt's 1293 Cooper S and built another Imp, a full 1971-spec Bevan lookalike. Last season, Matt won the 1300 cc FIA Period F division in the Nordic Historic Masters series, while my Imp behaved very well and we took fourth overall in the 1300 cc FIA Period G category. So, having put the racers away for the winter, the C-type replica is once again the priority.

Since September I have built a pedal box, made a set of pedals and fitted the master cylinder assemblies, I have made up a set of exhaust manifolds to my own design and fitted these, and sourced a pair of period-looking green leather seats from a small UK company. I have finished the brakes, using 4-pot front callipers and uprated rears, all from Zeus Engineering. At the moment I am fitting the wiring loom, made up from very period-looking wiring in Poland but as it came without a wiring diagram progress is slow. Final location of components such as fuel pump, tail lamps, starter relay, voltage regulator and fuse box will only be finalized when the wiring is all in place, and as I am very much an amateur when it comes to wiring, this job has to be done slowly and carefully. After the wiring, there is only one real job left, and that is fitting a handbrake assembly. My original box of parts included only one Jaguar rear mechanical calliper for the handbrake, and that is a pretty fiddly unit besides finding an identical twin for it being rather difficult. At the moment, I am considering fitting a pair of handbrake callipers made by Wilwood which would hopefully be efficient enough for the dreaded MOT.

So, the replica Jaguar is proceeding nicely and will definitely be on the road this Summer. It has taken much longer than I had hoped but I am certain the end result will be worth the effort.

[Nick Wa]

When I saw Hamilton demonstrate the Le Mans wining C type at Snetterton in July '53 I thought it was black and that was a sunny day! It was darker than Wharton's V16 BRM and that was nearly black. However when Wharton made his 2nd appearance with an "Eau de Nile" & white stripped tail one realised how dark that green had been before somebody split the meths!
Doc I reckon you've got that colour pretty near spot on.

[racingreen]

Dear All,

On the subject of correct Works Jaguar Colour, I believe that the this was actually both a Jaguar and Aston Martin green by the name of "Connaught Green" that dates from the mid to late '50s.

I have made extensive research and discovered that this colour was used by not only Jaguar on the works cars, but also by the Cooper Car Co. Broadspeed also used this colour on their engine blocks. I have no doubt that both Jaguar and Cooper used other shades at different times, but this is a correct period colour, with the previously described "almost black" look. It is also more dominately yellow based than blue based..... a hue that is possible to see in some period photographs that are not reflecting sky, and contrary to the to the dominately blue based green colour posted on the Cooper Car Club site (a modern, "invented" mix) . Most works Jaguars today are painted in Connaught Green.

I would highly recommend it. I use it on my own cars. When I find the code, I will post it for you.

Best,

DRW.

[Mal9444]

Doc - good to hear the latest news on your car, which explains why you haven't taken up my invitation... but once the car is finished, and you bring it to UK, the invitation remains open.

DRW and Nic - many thanks for that information. Sounds as if my little 1/43rd project is safe to proceed with that green.

The great thing about this forum is that there is always someone a) more knowledgable and b) willing to help, even on the most trivial and inconsequential of enquiries.

Happy New Year, everyone.

[David M. Woodhouse]

"And while I'm asking - does anyone have, or know where I might get, a photo of Moss's 1951 Le Mans/Dundrod car that would show the car - XKC 002 - in its Dundrod trim?"

Andrew White's book does have photos of the car, both at Le Mans and Dundrod. XKC 002 carried road registration plate 210 RW on the front of the car for the trip to Le Mans, but photos in the ACO book show that it was removed for the race. A photo on page 142 of the Andrew Whyte book shows Moss in the race at Dundrod with no registratiion on the front of the car.

Woody

[Mal9444]

Woody - many thanks.

That means I don't have to ask Barry Boor to make me a plate!

[D-Type]

In Paul Skilleter's Jaguar - the Sporting Heritage on P. 80 there is a picture of the Jaguar team prior to being driven to the 1951 Le Mans race. The cars have strapped on conventional trade plates, 153 RW, 220 RW and ??? RW on nos 20, 23 and 22 respectively. Clearly 'RW' plates were Jaguar trade plates. The cars have no painted on front number plates. On p. 86 the Mille Miglia car is shown and this also has a strapped on trade plate. On P. 89 the 1952 Le Mans car has a strapped on trade plate. On P.91, the 1953 Le Mans car has the 774 RW trade plate number painted on. Then on P.94 there is a picture of the 1953 car being greeted by the workforce on its return to the factory. This shows it with both the painted on plate and the official strapped on plate (both saying 774 RW). Other (non works) cars show painted on number plates at the front. I have no pictures of the rear of the cars.

My conclusion: in 1951 the works Jaguars were not road registered so did not have painted on front number plates or rear number plates.

Edited by D-Type, 24 November 2009 - 22:59.

[Mal9444]

Duncan - thanks. That, too, was my conjecture in my original question:

'In the Moore booklet there is a side-on view but this does not show the front of the car. In Paul’s book there is a picture of the three Le Mans cars ready to set off to drive to France and all three have strap-on trade plates. Presumably the practice of individually road-registering the cars came later?'

From what others have said about the colour, I'm going to stay with the very dark green of the Brumm model.

As has often been remarked here when the question of colours come up: it is unlikley that even the works teams had a specific colour produced exclusively for their use and simply used whatever was available, either off the shelf or made-up in the paint shop. Hence variations in colour probably did occur.

Happy New Year.

[D-Type]

Whoops! It didn't register that you have The Sporting Heritage.

The words "grandmother", "suck" and "eggs" come to mind.

[doc knutsen]

Originally posted by Mal9444
Doc - good to hear the latest news on your car, which explains why you haven't taken up my invitation... but once the car is finished, and you bring it to UK, the invitation remains open.

Happy New Year, everyone.

Thank you very much, I am looking forward to it!

And while I am at it, Happy New Year to all Jaguar enthusiasts!

(Thinks...) oh, all right then, to everybody else as well ;)

[Mal9444]

Originally posted by D-Type
Whoops! It didn't register that you have The Sporting Heritage.

The words "grandmother", "suck" and "eggs" come to mind.

Lordluv'ee, sir don't be .

I am but a dilettante is this world of studied research and knowledge, and need all the help I can get.

I mean to say: asking a question about the correct colour to paint a model C-type in a thread started by a bloke who is building a real one...

[Bjorn Kjer]

According to my info Jaguar used : ICI PO30-2889 Green.(Jaguar Racing Green)

[tonyb]

Originally posted by D-Type

My conclusion: in 1951 the works Jaguars were not road registered so did not have painted on front number plates or rear number plates.

I asked Paul Skilleter and he says:

There is no mystery about Jaguar and trade plates. Jaguar frequently (but not always) used trade plates on their race cars, because the works Cs and Ds were usually driven, rather than transported, to race meetings. Most other manufacturers put their cars on trailers, but Jaguar liked to demonstrate that their Le Mans cars were closely related to the road car range (which they were) and could easily be driven on public roads (which they could be).

It also made any race successes even more creditable. While the D-type prototype and the three 1954 team cars were road registered conventionally, in 1955 the works D-types ran with trade plates which were painted on, this being safer than separate plates held on by rubber straps. These were red on white 'limited' trade plates which as their name implies strictly limited the use they could be put to; remember the old police saying, "red on white, stop on sight; white on red, go ahead."

NB: RW was a Coventry registration allocation under the then current system. My own Jaguar XKR carries 7475 RW as a bit of a homage...

[Mal9444]

I realise that it was not a works car, but can anyone give me a steer, please, on what colour Tommy Wisdom's XK120 was in September 1950? I have always assumed it was green - but which green?

Below are links to four paintings of said vehicle being driven by S Moss to his first TT win at you-know-where. Each is a different shade of green.

http://www.geraldbro.../mosstt1950.htm

http://www.debrawenl...n_for_moss.html

http://www.studio88....Gic_M129_M.html

http://www.studio88....Gic_M214_M.html

I have also seen another picture of said car in said place which is an even paler green.

When the iconic vehicle appeared at Goodwood year before last it was (to my surprise) blue. I am fairly certain it wasn't blue in September 1950.

I am, needless to add I suppose, just about to paint a 1/43rd scale model of this motor car – hence my plea for help.

Thank you for your forebearance.

[RTH]

......................... My own Jaguar XKR carries 7475 RW as a bit of a homage...

Blimey !!

[D-Type]

I realise that it was not a works car, but can anyone give me a steer, please, on what colour Tommy Wisdom's XK120 was in September 1950? I have always assumed it was green - but which green?

Below are links to four paintings of said vehicle being driven by S Moss to his first TT win at you-know-where. Each is a different shade of green.

http://www.geraldbro.../mosstt1950.htm

http://www.debrawenl...n_for_moss.html

http://www.studio88....Gic_M129_M.html

http://www.studio88....Gic_M214_M.html

I have also seen another picture of said car in said place which is an even paler green.

When the iconic vehicle appeared at Goodwood year before last it was (to my surprise) blue. I am fairly certain it wasn't blue in September 1950.

I am, needless to add I suppose, just about to paint a 1/43rd scale model of this motor car – hence my plea for help.

Thank you for your forebearance.

If I were you, I'd follow Michael Turner. I don't know how responsive he is to such queries, but an e-mail to Studio 88 might get the information for you.

Incidentally the Oxford Diecasts model of Ronnie Adams's 1956 Monte Carlo rally winning MK VII that I acquired this weekend is in such a dark green it looks black - far darker than the 1955 Le Mans D-Type. But of course there is no guarantee that either is correct.

It's a pity Barry Boors is off line at the moment

Edited by D-Type, 25 November 2009 - 09:23.

[SWB]

In practical terms I'd say you had two choices that are available 'off the shelf'.

The Michael Turner painting looks like a good match for Ford 'Meadow Green'. But I always had the impression the car was a lighter colour than that, and closer to the background colour he has used on the same web page, which would be near to Ford 'Highland Green'.

Steve

[Mal9444]

Thank you both.

I have one more furrow to plough, and will revert if I find anything of significance.