288 replies to this topic

[David McKinney]

Here's another way of looking at it:
In 2000 a coil-spring Monaco appeared in UK historic races
•It was claimed to be the ex-Stillwell car
•It was further claimed that it had started life as the Keele/Moss 2.5
The advantages or otherwise of the coil-spring layout may be open to question, but not the superiority of the 2.5 engine over the 2-litre versions that every other Monaco ran in 1959. In other words, if you wanted to race a 2.5 Monaco in pre-1960 races it had to be the ex-Moss car.
But - correct me if I'm wrong - I don't think I recall Stillwell's car ever being referred to in period as ex-Moss

[Ray Bell]

Hmmm... don't I recall the ex-Stillwell car having been in the hands of Paul Moxham? At Guyra in 1998 (1997?)?

David... I'm afraid I can't answer your last question. Surely it would have been mentioned in Sports Car World at the time, anyway?

[Stan Patterson]

Interesting comment David,

In the light of what you say, one must ask where or, even why, the Keele Engineering connection was ever raised and by whom.

In relation the the Stillwell car, John Blanden wrote :

"The early history of this car is unknown apart from the fact it was built early in 1960 and was reputedly driven by Stirling Moss but had been laid up at the works for quite some time"

Those comments in themselves suggest there is some considerable doubt about the origins of the car and, yes, come to think of it, I too cannot recall the car ever being referred to as ex-Moss during its time here.


hmmmmmmm
Stan

[David McKinney]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
Hmmm... don't I recall the ex-Stillwell car having been in the hands of Paul Moxham? At Guyra in 1998 (1997?)?

Yes, it was in Paull Moxham's hands for some years

David... I'm afraid I can't answer your last question. Surely it would have been mentioned in Sports Car World at the time, anyway?

As I said, I don't recall it being referred to as such, in Sports Car World or anywhere else

[Stan Patterson]

Ok Ray..I give up

What or where is Guyra?

I last saw the Monaco, I assume it was the same car, at Eastern Creek September circa 1997/98.

It was in a pit garage, appeared to have been restored and was painted a mid to dark blue colour - not a particularly attractive colour. The owner seemed to be a large-ish man with curly grey hair and spectacles.

I have it on video but unfortunately in respect of solving the mystery, the cars rear bodyworkwas in place.

Much to my disappointment, the car did not run at the meeting...well certainly not after 11 am Saturday anyway.

Stan

[Ray Bell]

Guyra was at Guyra, in the New England... north of Armidale...

For a few years the town hosted an event called the Guyra GP... 'GP' alluding to 'Grand Prix' but actually standing for 'Grand Parade'. It was a series of 'regularity' events on a circuit laid out at one end of the town, with the main straight being beside the Mother of Ducks lagoon... don't you like that?

The engine in the car at that time showed signs of being somewhat distressed at some time, having great stitchings of weld in the lower section of the block.

And yes, that was Paul Moxham. You'll see him in pics from the Eastern Creek Tasman Revival, alongside the Brabham Alfa, which he now owns.

[Stan Patterson]

I have come across a yellowed and decaying copy of

"Mike Hawthorn - Champion Year"

$1 at Camberwell Market in Melbourne

a lovely book ..reeking of Neville Lollyd..however...in it

Le Mans 1958..Hawthorn writes

"Brooks did 4 min 8.3, Salvadori 4 min 11.1 in DBR1's iri , the best I could manage was 4 min 13 in my 3 Litre Ferarri....

"The most astonishing time of all was set up by Cliff Allison, who lapped at 4 mins 12.7 in a 2 litre Lotus" ..a :Lotus XV

Surely the Lotus XV is the most under-rated sports car of all time?

Stan Patterson

Aussie Monaco Man

[kaydee]

I took this photo at a Sandown meeting and I think the year may have been '63?
I've assumed it to be the Stillwell Monaco? - and if so, obviously then fitted with coil rear springs?

[Stan Patterson]

OK kaydee,

You have made my worst fear come true..

We now have two pics of the same car..both while in Au and both while in Bib Stillwell's ownership.

Ray's original pic shows leaf spring. rear suspension.

Your latest pic today, Sandown 1963, shows coil springs

Doug Nye believes the coils were fitted in UK before BS bought it

I swear i saw coils in January 1962 at Calder

I have a witness who worked alongside the car daily who is adamant it had coils.


So what happened and when and why?

Did BS change it back and forth to suit different circuits? - Doesn't seem likely given the work involved.

Did he get a later chassis? - Doesn't seem likely, he never crashed it and it never disappeared.

This really is a job for 221B Baker Street

Stan

[Ted Walker]

I may have this wrong .................but I thought that when the car returned to these shores it was on on leaf springs ????. I was asked by the restorer to provide shots so it could be returned to the "Moss spec " coil springs !!!

[Stan Patterson]

Hi Ted,

I assume you mean UK when you say "these shores" ..the Old Dart......BRDC and all that

Kaydee's pics show coils, while Ray's earlier pic shows leaf spring...... there is no doubt it is the same car.


Lets remember that after Sir Bib retired, the car was bastardised by various fellows and we can really only, therefore, go by the two pics we have while the 4 times Gold Star Champion owned it.


Now Ted tells us it had a leaf sping when it returned home to the green and pleasant land.......


In the words of anon:

"Buggered if I know"


Stan
(Non-argumentive stan)

[Simon Hadfield]

Ok now thats the rear end of the chassis as Frank and Mr Coombs purchased the car, the chassis is all but T53 from the seat back bulkhead backwards. We were told this rear end was fitted in Australia after an accident. We returned the car to its '59 spec with the help of photos taken by the works manager at Keele Engineering when they did the original conversion for Stirling (in the polythene covered annex !)

[Stan Patterson]

Hi Simon

Perhaps if we knew who "Frank and Mr Coombs " were......Delboy and Arfurr dont know.... we might comment.

Further ..."the chassis is all but T53 from the seat back bulkhead backwards" does not help.

The car despite, being raced vigorously by a Quadruple Australian Gold Star Champion, often against superior odds and at suicidal circuits such as Bathurst and Longford, WAS NEVER INVOLVED IN AN ACCIDENT....

What is the alleged "'59 spec" and what is its relevance given the car's substantive and defining Stillwell Australian history?

All I want to know is..what rear suspension did it have when it covered itself in glory out here?

Frankly i dont care about its auction house value

Stan Patterson

[Formula 5000]

A very intriguing thread that is a long way from being solved. Very challenging, so here is my further jigsaw piece.

Did not, towards the end on Mr Stillwell's ownership of the Monaco, he put into it a V8, probably Buick? He then raced it sparingly. Was this the opportunity for it to be modified?

It is difficult to believe that Mr Stillwell would take it from coils to transverse leaf to make it go faster. He would have been in receipt of input from Cooper and Black Jack and neither went down that track.

Lets keep working on this.

[cosworth bdg]

The car was fitted with an alloy OLD'S V8....

[Stan Patterson]

Yes Formula 5000,

This mystery must be solved.

Lets summarise:

The popular belief has always been that the car came to Australia with coils springs as fiitted in UK by Keele Engineering/S Moss

I am certain it had coils in Janauary 1962 and we also have Kaydees coil spring pic of March 1963 confirming this.

However, there is no doubt Ray's pic is genuine and that the car shown is the Stillwell car because :

Only one Monaco ever came here
Stillwell's T53 can be seen parked next to it, plus the inevitable number 6 can be seen on the Monaco front body section
In Ray's pic, Gerry Brown, BS's long serving chief mechanic, can be seen sitting in the car

The car was never crashed and as far as I am aware, a serious rebuild never took place

The V8 engine was installed late 1964/early 65, well AFTER Kay-dee's coil spring/climax engine pic ..and yes the car was raced sparingly and is performance was really little or no better than when it had the 2.7 Climax fitted.

Ted tells us it was on a leaf spring when it returned to UK and implies the 1959 Keele/Moss spec. was coils.

Simon tells us "they" returned to the car to the 1959 Keele coils spec, confirming Ted's comments it was on a leaf spring when it returned to UK.

The date of Ray's leaf spring pic is critical......although I would bet it is 1961, soon after its arrival here.

The car went through many owners after Stillwell retired and was hacked about and so its leaf spring indentity late 1998 is not relevent.

The real issues are:

Did the car leave UK with coils and therefore, is it REALLY the Keele/Moss car?
Did Bib Stillwell change it.. copying his T53 lowline in late 61/62?

On the balance of probablities, I am inclined to the view that car was never the Keele Engineering/Moss car, but, rather, was a car that Bib Stillwell found lying about at the Cooper works which he purchased and, which after a brief perod in Au, the rear suspension was converted to match that of his companion T53 lowline.

My findings have been passed on to the DPP and the CPS

Sir Stanley Patterson QC






Sir Stanley Patterson QC

[kaydee]

As Bib is no longer with us does anyone know if Gerry Brown is still around?
He would certainly be the best one to solve this mystery.
Failing that what about Michael Stillwell?

[Ray Bell]

Britto's pic may be 1961 or 1962, I'd have to look at the slides and see which goes with which and whether Susanne is happy about it...

But didn't we establish that there were coils there alongside the leaf spring anyway? It's also true that the picture above shows very different wishbones.

Oh, and wasn't it a Buick (Scarab) engine?

[tyjak]

The picture last posted appears to be an adaptation of a lowline configuration to a Monaco. From the location of the control arm mounts to the frame tube geometry. Gone are the curves of the original Monaco frame as well as the mounts for the leaf spring. This could not have been easily converted back and forth for different events as was suggested earlier. Yes, the Autosport drawing shows a coil spring. This is just a drawing. The picture also shows no upper control arm mounts on the frame, ie. removal of the leaf spring to use only the coil over would have left no means of locating the top of the upright. The rear spring was stiff enough without a coil spring. A look at the earlier picture in this thread (page 4?) shows what some have argued is a coil spring. A close look appears to be the shocks bump rubber at the top of the shock. Note that the 2 coils are tight toghether and that the rear suspension is not compressed. Therefore this could not be a coil spring that is in coil bind. The shape also points to a bump rubber of this period. Would they have used a softer leafspring to locate the uprights and use a coilover to set the spring rate? If my understanding of how the rear suspension works is correct, the leaf spring also acts as the rear sway bar. Any thoughts?

[Stan Patterson]

Hi Tyak,

I think you are agreeing with my opinion.

The Stillwell equipe, with all of Melbourne's Repco-esque skills, modified the Monaco to mimic the T53 Lowline Tasman car he was running at the same time.

The Keele Engineering/Moss thing looks more and more like an Arfurr Daley deal..

I dont buy those Brit mags anymore

Stan

[Ted Walker]

Does anyone have an idea as to the colour of the caras delivered to Australia ??? It would seem very odd to have have bought an "ex Stirling Moss" car" and not made a big fuss about it in the press and race programmes !!!!

[Stan Patterson]

Yes Ted,

The Monaco just quietly appeared here in 1961 and, like all of Bib Stillwel's cars, was absolutely immaculate.

Bedford Transporter - BRG
Cooper T53 lowline - BRG
Cooper Monaco - BRG .

I have no recollection whatsoever of it being represented as an ex-Moss car and frankly, as far as I am concerned, its value lies in the place the car and its driver created in our motor racing history - not in what it may or may not have done briefly in 1959 in the UK.

Stan

[Ray Bell]

Would any represetation as 'ex-Moss' have made any impact in Australia at the time?

Remember, it was a very different time. It was simply the most advanced sports racing car in the country at the time. It was made by the company who made the cars that gave 'Our Jack' the world championship.

Why would anyone mention it was ex-Moss?

[David McKinney]

Other ex-Moss cars were mentioned at the time, and certainly ex-Brabham items (as well as ex-Behra, ex-Whitehead, ex-Chiron, ex-Mme Itier etc etc)

[kaydee]

Was this the Australian debut of Bib's Cooper Monaco?
This photo was taken at the AGP meeting at Mallala in October '61
The colour appears to be BRG

(My apologies for the quality of this photo as it has been considerably enlarged from a section of a 35mm slide)

[kaydee]

Originally posted by David McKinney
Other ex-Moss cars were mentioned at the time, and certainly ex-Brabham items (as well as ex-Behra, ex-Whitehead, ex-Chiron, ex-Mme Itier etc etc)

Just found this paragraph in the AGP race report in Dec '61 AMS -

[Ray Bell]

I wonder how that will be received by the doubting Thomases...

Thanks for taking the time to investigate that, Kevin.

[Stan Patterson]

kaydee,

Thanks for such a brilliant picture........no need to apolgise.

The Monaco looks just superb from that angle..almost like a rear- engined D Type......but squat and very purposeful and, of course, any hitherto unseen picture of Austalia's most successful driver of the early 60's is always welcome.

However, much as I enjoyed reading of BS's weekend, unlike Ray, I dont see the AMS mention of ex-Moss as anything more than heresay.

We really must solve this problem. I have made a couple of phone calls in repsect of tracing Gerry Brown, but they were dead ends...I shall keep trying.

Stan

[David McKinney]

Originally posted by Stan Patterson
However, much as I enjoyed reading of BS's weekend, unlike Ray, I dont see the AMS mention of ex-Moss as anything more than heresay.

In Ray's defence -
I don't think he was citing that as proof of the car's history, but in response to suggestions on this thread that no-one called the car ex-Moss until years later.

[Ted Walker]

The one shot I have taken at Aintree GP 59 the car does not have the 2 scoops in front of the windscreen.

[Ted Walker]

Just noticed it looks like the car in Australia also has vents in the top of the rear wings as well ??

[Haydn]

I have been in contact with a friend who has first hand knowledge of the Stillwell Cooper Monaco and I can tell you the following facts which may help clarify some of the grey areas of knowledge circulating on this thread.

1. The car was definitely ex Moss.

2. It arrived in Australia with leaf spring configuration.

3. Alf Francis modified the rear bracketry to allow the fitting of coil over shocks ( In the U.K.
prior to Stillwells' ownership).

4. The car was capable of running with or without the leaf spring using the bracketry done by Alf
Francis. A top link was used when coil springs were fitted.

4. The complete rear of the frame including the suspension was modified in 1963 to match Bib's
Lowline Cooper configuration.

This information came from someone with intimate knowledge of the Stillwell Monaco.



Cheers,

HaydnM

[Stan Patterson]

Congratulations and thank you Haydn..

You have solved the mystery, have answered all aspects contained therein and increased our knowledge of long-forgotten matters.

That explains why the car had straight lowline like chassis rails in Kaydee's 1963 pic rather than the curved type in Ray's earlier pic.

It may also touch on the original point of this thread, which was that a good Monaco could sometimes stay with and defeat a Lotus 19 and this one sometimes did.

I am obliged to say two things however:

Good old Aussie engineering skills and

I wonder if the car is tarted around the UK as ex-Moss or ex-Stillwell ?..need we even bother to ask?

Stan

[Ted Walker]

Sounds like the start of another thread to me ..................................Moss versus Stillwell surely No Contest ??????

[Stan Patterson]

No Ted ...not at all

What I mean is....to me, and us Aussies.....the car will always be the Stillwell car..its substantive history was out here................it is part of our motor racing history

I may be a big Bib Stillwell but i arent that crazy!!

Stan

[Stan Patterson]

Haydn's solving of the case of the mystery Stillwell Monaco suspension raises another point upon which I have often reflected.

Alf Francis it seems, was always fiddling with and "improving" cars, particularly Cooper suspensions, but I always got the impression that at the end of the day, the improvements made little or no diffrence to performance.

Is this a fair appraisal or I am being too harsh?

Stan Patterson

[tyjak]

I am working on CM/2/59, currently being vintage raced. I am interested in Alf Francis' modifications to the suspension. I am trying to make changes that are period correct. The pictures and information on this thread have been very intersting, but I am looking for more.

[Doug Nye]

Originally posted by kaydee
Just found this paragraph in the AGP race report in Dec '61 AMS -

Thanks a million for this Kaydee - on the occasional times I have revisited this thread I was beginning to think that maybe I was the guilty party who had simply made-up all this ex-Moss business for the Stilwell car. But when I compiled my 'Cooper Cars' book way back when I am sure I either found an ad for the car in the UK press and/or found reference to the car in Australia being "ex-Moss" which at that juncture would have meant the 1959 Keele Engineering entry (which was at that time liveried in light green, by the way).

I have several times over the past month spent considerable time trying to rediscover those published references and have failed dismally, and frustratingly...

I do remember asking John Cooper about the Moss IRS car and him telling me "that wasn't down to us, boy - Stirling had that done by somebody he came up with". Stirling then explained the Keele connection to me. After his performance in the car in Scandiwegia it was offered for sale - obviously "ex-Moss". It appears the premium asking price put people off... After the passage of several months the final price arrived at did not appear to bother Bib.

DCN

[Michael Oliver]

Originally posted by Doug Nye
Having just glared again at the Stilwell Monaco rear bay photograph, just ahead of the leafspring clamp on the left-hand top chassis rail there's a typically Cooper abutment bracket visible which is carrying what appears to be the top of the left-rear suspension telescopic damper.

If you then look just at the point where the underside of the leafspring vanishes behind the tyre, there is a suggestion of something rather like a segment of coilspring just visible there...it appears to be the appropriate diameter away from what would be the longitudinal axis of an angled damper.

Is what we are looking at in fact a Monaco rigged with BOTH transverse leafspring AND coil/dampers...?

Which would pose something of another conundrum. (Apart from which it's both thought-provoking and revealing to look 'into' photographs rather than merely look 'at' them)

DCN

It looks as if you all got to the bottom of this one but I've been meaning to post this for a few....er, months!

At a recent dinner I met Dick Tarrant, who worked with Keele Engineering as a mechanic for Stirling Moss in the early 1960s. I asked him about the Cooper Monaco that went to Bib Stilwell and he said that it was altered from leaf to coil springs while it was still Stirling Moss's car, at Keele Engineering. He said that they (he didn't mention Alf Francis but then I didn't ask) also altered the chassis to take an FPF and a Colotti box. So it would seem that certainly, when the car went out to Oz, it was in coil-spring spec, which would seem to confirm what Haydn said. I hope this might help a bit...

Michael