25 replies to this topic

[NYR2119935]

What is the difference between F3 and F 3000 ?
And whatever happened to F2 and F 2000 ??

And are these like the Atlantics, Indy Lights, IRL, and Barber Dodge Pro series??

thanx

[Jhope]

to tell you the truth, i really don't know much about European racing series as it's hard to follow in North America. But...from what a can see, a can, in some very weird way, see that F3000 in Europe is more or less on par with what Fromula Atlantic/Indy Lights is here in NA. F3 on the other hand, seem to be classes ahead of what f-1600 is here. So i really have nothing to compare it to in NA. Maybe the closest I can think of is the Canadian ChampCar Lights Series. if you've never seen what they look like, here, have a look.

Canadian ChampCar Lights


F3


Formula Atlantic


F-3000

[NYR2119935]

thanx for the great pics

F3 = Atlantics ?
F 3000 = Indy Lights or IRL ?

[Jhope]

No no no!!!

Atlantics/Indy Lights = F-3000
Champ Car Lights = F-3

IRL would blow these cars out of the water anyday of the week. I give them credit, but i still hate'em!

Atlantic:
4 cylinder/ natural aspiration
Ground Effect and wings

F-3000
4 cylinders/ natural aspiration
Flat Bottom and wings


Champ Car Lights and F-30 look almost Identical, but i have no info on the specification of the mechanics. If you find anything, can you post it here?

[Ross Stonefeld]

Are you insane?

F3 = huge aerodynamics, actually overgripped. 2litre Engines from Honda, Toyota, Opel, Renault, Mitsubishi, etc etc 225ish HP

F3000 = V6 450hp

F3 is faster than atlantics, and f3000 is faster than Indylights

F3 is an open series, you can run Ralts or Dallaras or Martinis, and lots of different engines. F3000 is asealed series. You buy a lola, you cant touch it. you want to drill holes in the pedals? Send a fax to charlie whiting. If he allows it he sends a copy of your fax to all the other teams. Engines are sealed and rotated, you are allowed X amount of hours per engine to limit testing.

Ross Stonefeld
Aztec International

[NYR2119935]

ah ok
thank you for the clarrification

[Jhope]

thnaks, like i said i have no info on these things her in N.A. But i have to dis-agree about the F3 and Atlantic comparison. I'm so sure that the Atlantics can seriously beat the F3 into the ground. They were only running something like 15-18 seconds slower than a Minardi in Montreal.

[NYR2119935]

Go Atlantics!!!

lol

[Ross Stonefeld]

Dont be so sure, F3 cars are seriously aero'd up. They run low downforce trim at almost all the tracks because they generate so much aero. the racing is incredible because everyone can run right behind each other.

1999 British Grand Prix
qualifying
22. Gene Minardi Ford 1:28.772 + 3.968
1999 British F3
race fastest lap

2 BUTTON Dallara F399 Renault 1.44.630

Ross Stonefeld
Aztec International

[Jhope]

Yeah, but the Atlantics run extemely low downforce at all times, on all circuits because of their Venturi Tunnels. The racing is absolutely incredible. They follow each other extremely close, and the grip generated by the Yokohama AVS's are incredible. I talked to one of the team mechanics, and he was telling he that in reality, they don't need the rear wings, but they use them because they add just enough stability to run flat through corners, and eliminate oversteer caused by having the front wings. otherwise, they wouldn't need them. I remember a few years ago, Pat Carpentier was running with a rear wing so low to the chassis, that it looked like it had no wing at all. The race was at Road America in 1996 i belive. To get to the point, he totally ran away from everything that day. It just shows that these cars are quick and grippy. I'll be back in a little with some more info.

[Jhope]

here we go.

Canadian GP 2000

F1 Slowest Lap of the race
Johnny Herbert Jaguar/Cosworth 1'22.369

Atlantic Fastest Race Lap

David Rutledge Lynx Racing 1:35.954


difference of 13.585 seconds.

I can't really post the qualifycation laps for the Atlantic series. The morning of their session, the track was damp from a rain strom the previous evening.The qualifycation laps were in the 1:38's. That's why I posted the race laps.
as compared to a difference of 15.858 between F-3 and F1 at Silverstone

I give the benifit. Theyt are close.

[AlesiGOD]

F-3000 less grip more power...

[AlesiGOD]

And I would estimate F-3000 roughly 10 sec. slower(per lap) than F-1

[Griffon]

For information about the US F3 go to http://www.usf3.net/home.html

An Atlantic will absolutely destroy an F3, at least as race in the US.

I thought F-3000 used Ford Zetec V-8's.

[NYR2119935]

very interesting guys!
thanx!

so:

Atlantics = F3
Indy Lights = F 3000
CART = F1

I am just using that equation as each ladder is proportional to its own series
so don't hang me here.

[FlagMan]

Ross - I think you will find that F3000 uses a V8 not a V6.

What happend to F2 and F2000?

F2 sort of migrated to become F3000 - the reasoning given at the time was that F2 was regarded as a second class series to F1 and as a result it was hard to get sponsorship for it. As it coincided to the change of F1 engines from 3.0 to 3.5 litres there were a lot of second hand 3ltr Cosworth V8s around, they upped the capacity to 3ltr and renamed it F3000.

In its first years F3000 was a free chassis formula - I seem to remember it was actually permitted to run an old F1 chassis on the narrower tyres but hardly anyone did.
Eventually it migrated to become a single spec chassis series and then to its latest form with a single spec chassis and engine.

Although F3 is a free spec series it has effectivly become a one make chassis series as the Dallara chassis is almost totally dominant.

F2000 in Europe sort of died out when Ford lost interest in promoting it - probably as it used the Pinto engine which was being phased out - it effectivly got replaced by Formula Vauxhall/Opel as the step below F3.

Another way to look at it is compare the budgets required -

F3 = 350,000 - 500,000 UK pounds for the UK series
F3000 - 750,000 UK pounds for the European series

[NYR2119935]

kewl
thanx for the info !

Back in 1967 there was F3, F2, and F1
things were much easier than
haha

[EKB]

The forerunner of Indy Lights, the American Racing Series (ARS), actually based their chassis on a Formula 3000. I believe that CART team owner Pat Patrick started the series to be the main stepping stone into CART. There was a good article in Road & Track a number of years ago (can't remember what year) called "ARS vs. Them", comparing ARS/Indy Lights to F3000

Indy Lights uses a pushrod V6 (and makes the oddest engine noise) - lots of torque! I think it was Paul Tracey (but don't quote me), who said that after driving an Indy Lights car with so much torque and limited grip, driving an Indy Car was not such a leap, as an Indycar had such better aerodynamics to handle the power.

I tend to think that the difference between f3/Atlantics and Indy Lights/F3000 aren't that great.

Indy Lights/F3000 are both suppose to be the "main" development feeder for their respective series. Both have high horsepower/torque with (relitively speaking) low grip.

F3/Atlantics both use small 4 cylinder engines in a lighter chassis, but have an agressive aero package. And drivers from both F3 and Atlantics have made the jump into their respective "top" series.

BTW, can anyone tell me what that strange pod is sticking off from the side of an F3 car?

Cheers,

EKB

[arcwulf7]

A series left out of the discussion is Formula Palmer Audi with its spec Audi/Diemen configurations and roughly 250+hp. Where does it stand in the hierarchy. They certainly seem well above FRenault or FFord. The champion i know gets a fully funded F3000 drive. The cost is listed as a flat L85,000 for a full season's participation. Have seen a couple of races on Speedvision, Spa, Nurburgring-- very competitive. Sounds like a great deal when you compare it L400,000 for f3 but there are probably limitations on sponsorship and purses as well.

[Ross Stonefeld]

FPA is over 300hp now, with 350hp overboost. The original smaller series was 85,000 pounds, not sure what it costs this year.

Ross Stonefeld
Aztec International

[Ellen2]

to answer the threat title: three zeros....;)

[MattPete]

First off:

Formula Ford = FF1600 (1.6 litre engine)
F2000 = FF1600 + 2 litre engine and wings

Formula Atantic was originally conceived as a step between F3 and F2. I have no idea why. For a while, it was also known as Formula B; Formula 5000 was Formula A.


In the mid-eighties, the performance disparity between F1 and F2 was becoming too great (i.e. the jump was too big). The FIA changed the rules for F2, adopting 3 litre engines. For some silly reason, they also decided to change the name to F3000.

Indy Lights, more than ever, are F3000 cars. Both are made by the same manufacturer, with little tweaks to make them more suited for their respective series (e.g. ovals). Lights use a Buick V6, whereas F3000 uses a Zetec(?) V8. Light weigh roughly 50 lbs more and have 400 less horsepower -- changing from the lump-of-pig-iron Buick to F3000's V8 would problem even out the horsepower and weight of the two series.

As far as F3 vs. Atlantics goes, the orignal design goal of keeping Atlantics faster than F3 has not been violated. Atlantics have more horsepower (but they might weigh a little more), *much* wider front and rear track, *much* wider tires, and ground effects tunnels. An Atlantic car, despite being a spec series, would whoop an F3 car [despite Ross's secret belief that if it European, it must be faster ;-) ].

For an example of how effective Atlantic's ground effects tunnels are, at some of the short ovals (e.g. Chicago), they lap at roughly the same speed as the Lights cars despite having about half the horsepower. Of course, on road and street courses, the Lights horsepower leads to much lower lap times compared to the Atlantics. Personally, I think that the Atlantics have too much grip for the horsepower, which is probably the reason why Lights drivers have been more succesful in CART than those drivers with only Atlantics experience.

Most of these specs are guestimates, but are probably reasonably close:

(weight in pounds)

		  Weight   BHP

FF1600	1200	 100

F2000	 1200	 140  (weight from usf2000.com)

F3		1000	 220

FAtl	  1100	 240

Lights	1430	 425  (weight and bhp from lolacars.com)

F30000	1375	 500  (weight from lolacars.com)

BTW: both Atlantics and F3000 cars ran at a race in Nova Scotia almost ten years ago, but because the specs of both series have changed so much, digging up the data would be pointless.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Formula Ford = 1.8 Litre

A Formula 3 car on the same tire brand and compound as an Atlantic, would win hands down. I honestly believe this.

Of course this is what I've been told by educated racing people, so I'll have to take their word for it until I am unlucky enough to have to test both

Ross Stonefeld
Aztec International

[NYR2119935]

Eddie Irvine just stated on Letterman that F 3000 is really F2, however the naming system is all screwed up.

[JayWay]

No he said F2 to make it simpler to explain.

[FlagMan]

EKB - the strange device on the side of an F3 car is the air intake. The idea is to restrict the horsepower of the engine to reduce engine blow-ups. The air box has to make an air-tight seal with the induction tract of the engine and has a regulated inlet restrictor (about 34mm diameter if I recall correctly). They check the airtightness of the air-box at post-race scrutineering - if it leaks you are disqualified.

MattPete - I believe that Formula Atlantic in the UK (which was based on Formula B in the states) was designed to allow the non-professional/club competitor a racing series that provided a reasonable spec without the expense of having to compete with the professional teams in F2 and F3. It orinally had more power than F3 (which at the time was for 1600cc engines) but less than F2, using the Cosworth BDA engine.

arcwulf - Formula Palmer Audi cost about 125,000 UKP this year. It is an 'arrive and drive' formula with the cars being prepared and run by the Palmer Audi organisation. This means that if you get assigned a crap mechanic/race engineer then you are stuffed. On the positive side it means that you cannot buy success as all the cars are equal - but I have heard that some cars are more equal than others - but that might just have been sour grapes...

Cost wise it looks a good deal compared to 350,000 + for F3 but I believe there is some small print in the contract that states that FPA is entitled to a percentage of your future earnings from motor racing if you con on to further success...