37 replies to this topic

[SirSaltire]

So Hermann Tilke thinks we could have F1 races after dark - Night Races . Could this work? I can see that it would be easy enough for the American series on ovals but F1 circuits? What if there was a power cut mid race . I suppose it would mean that we could have all the races on TV at a decent time for us Europeans!

[Lifew12]

Great idea. Assuming they can get the floodlighting right.

[slapstick]

If the goal is to make F1 greener imitating sun on the race tracks is not such a good idea.

[HP]

Originally posted by slapstick
If the goal is to make F1 greener imitating sun on the race tracks is not such a good idea.

The goal is to make more money. That's why it has been suggested a long while ago to hold a night race in Malaysia. There might be more people at the track.

[SirSaltire]

Originally posted by slapstick
If the goal is to make F1 greener imitating sun on the race tracks is not such a good idea.

Very true! Just think of all the power used!

[rce]

Originally posted by HP
The goal is to make more money. That's why it has been suggested a while to hold a night race in Malaysia. There might be more people at the track.

No kidding, but I'm with slapstick on this one - we have F1 ranting about being more "green" and more "environmentally friendly" and then let's have a night race, ya that makes sense.

[HP]

Originally posted by SirSaltire
Very true! Just think of all the power used!

I can't believe that people still fall for such arguments. Power companies in many countries produce too much power after regular work hours. Those companies will be happy to find customers in order to not produce power nobody wants.

[rce]

Originally posted by HP
I can't believe that people still fall for such arguments. Power companies in many countries produce too much power after regular work hours. Those companies will be happy to find customers in order to not produce power nobody wants.

But the question is - how is that power being generated? If it is generated by renewable resources (such as water or wind) then it's better than say coal generated power, but it's still light pollution and imo still goes against the image some in F1 want to start pushing - environmentally friendly.

And after experiencing that lovely blackout 3-4 years ago, it'd be nice if power companies found a way (if they haven't already) of storing that extra power "they generate after regular work hours" for backup purposes.

[Jardins]

What is the point of racing at "night" when you have floodlights everywhere to simulate daylight??? It's more difficult to see the cars at night and I don't think it would add anything to the race.

Would the cars need to be modified to incorporate headlights?

[naiboz]

Originally posted by Jardins
What is the point of racing at "night" when you have floodlights everywhere to simulate daylight??? It's more difficult to see the cars at night and I don't think it would add anything to the race.

Would the cars need to be modified to incorporate headlights?

exactly

Whats the point in racing at night if its all floodlit anyway?

only cool thing about racing at night is like night stage rallys (if they still happen, not a rally fan here)

where the track is dark and the cars provide the light, then you get to extra thrill of the drivers not seeing far ahead and behind the cars you get to see the exhaust properly etc

its all a bit pointless and F1 has bigger problems to solve first

[Rob G]

Originally posted by Jardins
What is the point of racing at "night" when you have floodlights everywhere to simulate daylight??? It's more difficult to see the cars at night and I don't think it would add anything to the race.

Would the cars need to be modified to incorporate headlights?

Champ Car did night races on the airport in Cleveland a few years ago, and Houston last year. The light was more than sufficient to not need headlights.

Aside from the aforementioned increase in power usage, you'd effectively lose a day from a race weekend, unless you had it begin on Thursday. How many people would not be able to miss an extra day of work to be there?

[clampett]

This would be great. I easily can imagine a night race at Sepang. Make it happen.

[turin]

Originally posted by slapstick
If the goal is to make F1 greener imitating sun on the race tracks is not such a good idea.

it can go "green" if they lit the cars and the track with
phosphorecent paint

[Lifew12]

Has it not occured to those who question the 'point' of running Shanghai and Malaysia (the two mooted races) at night that it would move them to a more TV friendly time in the countries that watch it on the box?

No?

[troyf1]

I'm all for it. It would have been pretty neat back in the days of no refueling when the cars had titanium skid plates and the cars were all sparking when they bottomed out

[turin]

Originally posted by Lifew12
Has it not occured to those who question the 'point' of running Shanghai and Malaysia (the two mooted races) at night that it would move them to a more TV friendly time in the countries that watch it on the box?

No?

I think you raised a good point. If I did my work correctly, a race at 9PM in Malaysia would put it at 2pm on the UK, but it definetely it won't work for me, it would still be at 6AM.

why did I move here?

[SirSaltire]

Originally posted by Lifew12
Has it not occured to those who question the 'point' of running Shanghai and Malaysia (the two mooted races) at night that it would move them to a more TV friendly time in the countries that watch it on the box?

No?

Yes it did occur to me and thats why I mentioned it at the start of the thread! Its the only good reason as far as I can see.

[guillo]

Night races???

Next thing you know, they'll be racing on a figure 8 dirt track and drinking a Bud-lite!

[wrighty]

Originally posted by SirSaltire
Yes it did occur to me and thats why I mentioned it at the start of the thread! Its the only good reason as far as I can see.

Bernie tends to think long-term iirc, we might see the european races run under floodlights in 5 years time so they're at a better time for the far east.....

just a thought

I'm not a fan of the idea tbh, but european races with european climate on a saturday night could be....different

[COUGAR508]

I get the impression that once the logistical/technical problems concerning lighting and TV coverage have been overcome, this proposal has legs. It all sounds a bit Orwellian, staging races on the other side of the world to satisfy the needs of millions of European TV viewers, but ,hey, this is the way the world works these days. I wonder how long it would take before the novelty wears off, though...

[Mauseri]

I dont like the idea. Besides, F1 is tilked enough already.

[HP]

Originally posted by rce


But the question is - how is that power being generated? If it is generated by renewable resources (such as water or wind) then it's better than say coal generated power, but it's still light pollution and imo still goes against the image some in F1 want to start pushing - environmentally friendly.

Can racing ever be considered as environmental friendly?

Originally posted by rce

And after experiencing that lovely blackout 3-4 years ago, it'd be nice if power companies found a way (if they haven't already) of storing that extra power "they generate after regular work hours" for backup purposes.

In mountainous areas, they do pump water back into the reservoir, if the power demand is low. But if the lines are overloaded that's all moot anyway. There is only one thing one can do to prevent such a situation, installing an own backup generator. Would have even helped Renault during one race last year when the monitors went black.

But if you or anyone ever manages to truly store power, then you'd solved most power problems around the world once and for all. The energy produced in a lightning bolt for example, is enough to power an entire city for quite some time. Even if there is no lightning visible, the air is charged always. Alas until that is invented, there will be those talks about environmental impact, but as usual most politicians and people focus on the wrong side of the issue.

That's why for me the real issue about night racing is just: Does it lead to better races? 24 hours races like Le Mans would be better looked at to make an assessment, than environmental issues.

Besides that, the F1 regulations would have to get some special consideration where to mount lights on an open-wheeler, and where to get the power from? If night racing goes ahead, it would need change on the technical side of the cars. And lights would the cars need, since it's next to impossible to light an entire track consistently enough.

[HP]

Originally posted by Lifew12
Has it not occured to those who question the 'point' of running Shanghai and Malaysia (the two mooted races) at night that it would move them to a more TV friendly time in the countries that watch it on the box?

No?

Yes, but the race in Malaysia and other races in (sub)tropical climate is rather brutal to be there for hours anyway, because of the sun and heat. So for the race in Malaysia, it makes all sense.

[FrankB]

Originally posted by Lifew12
Great idea. Assuming they can get the floodlighting right.

Hasn't Monza already got track lighting. I'm sure there are permanent lighting pylons every 50m or so, with their heads angled to throw their light in the direction of the racing.

[Mauseri]

Originally posted by HP
Can racing ever be considered as environmental friendly?

Even horse racing do cause climate change with horses and all things involved in it. The cars themselves are not so major environment hazard when you consider what the whole running of F1 series or any circus of similar scale is. But sure there can be made differences whether you pollute 1x or 10x. It's always good idea to avoid producing too much rubbish and save fuel even if you keep doing your things.

[noikeee]

I'd like to see 1 night race in the calendar. Would be something different - and I do imagine Sepang being a perfect match for it. Having a couple of them every year might be an overkill though.

[HoldenRT]

No one has mentioned the tyres. Depends on where the race would be but presumably it would be alot cooler then day races. Maybe 10-20C track temp. Would need some testing in similar conditions, or maybe a new tyre used.

And if it's in Sepang, pretty sure they have thunderstorms nearly every afternoon/evening at the usual time of year of the GP. Not sure if it hangs around for the night. It seems to be always cloudy during the GP weekends. Thunderstorms + night racing could be a little too much.

There is alot of reasons listed against it, some silly, some make sense.

The biggest reason I would like to see it is because it'd be something different, and would look cool! I think F1 cars could look good under lights. I like to watch all other outdoor sports at night, F1 wouldn't be any different. The onboards would be interesting. Not all the time, but occasionally would be good. They could at least try it and if it didn't work, they could kill it.

That's why for me the real issue about night racing is just: Does it lead to better races?

That's a good question. You'd think it'd be the same as day racing just a cooler track. But I think it would be good to see a race in those different conditions for the same reason that wet races are good. The pecking order is changed a bit, it tests the drivers in a different way and we can see something different. I think most like wet races because of the overtaking, but for me even without the overtaking it's still good to see the cars in a different way, behaving differently and testing the drivers in different circumstances. If it was planned, the night race wouldn't be a lottery either. But to answer your question, I think the race would be more interesting because it would be something new (very low temps), but overtaking mightn't be much more then usual. So to some it could be same old boring F1 dry race.

[WACKO]

IMO racing at night makes it unnecessarily more dangerous. To me it bares no additional value. It may be exciting, but never at the expense of safety. With the speeds we're talking of in F1 added up with the fragility of the cars (compared to sports cars) it is definitely at the cost of safety. Imagine there's heavy rain and standing water on the track. You would have to suspend the race.

Originally posted by HP
That's why for me the real issue about night racing is just: Does it lead to better races?

I very much doubt it will, since drivers will be tentatively more cautious in the dark. If you're behind a car and vision of what's about a hundred metres ahead is bad, you will think twice before you dare to overtake. It's a big difference with Le Mans or night races in NASCAR: driving on a circuit instead of an oval, which is more easily floodlightened and bares no surprises trackwise, and moreover really racing cars for position instead of endurance.

[FrankB]

From a couple of weeks ago on the Technical Forum

http://forums.autosp...&threadid=92750

[Blythy]

Hasn't Monza already got track lighting. I'm sure there are permanent lighting pylons every 50m or so, with their heads angled to throw their light in the direction of the racing.

that would be awesome as the end to the european season.

although the first corner would be.... interesting.

[HoldenRT]

Originally posted by WACKO
IMO racing at night makes it unnecessarily more dangerous. To me it bares no additional value. It may be exciting, but never at the expense of safety. With the speeds we're talking of in F1 added up with the fragility of the cars (compared to sports cars) it is definitely at the cost of safety. Imagine there's heavy rain and standing water on the track. You would have to suspend the race.

More dangerous then a dry race? Definately. More dangerous then a wet race? Not sure, as the visibility in the spray is very poor. Wet and night race? Could be a very dangerous combination. So I agree partly. It's tough to talk with any certainty because we haven't seen anything like this ever in F1. And I think the individual tracks lighting is a factor. It doesn't really matter what we say anyway, it will go ahead regardless, or won't go ahead regardless. But you'd have to think it's a long way away if it were to ever happen.

[Locai]

Well, if they can light up Daytona Speedway and Burke Lakefront Airport, I would assume that they can safely light something like Sepang.

Musco Lighting is the company in the US that's made a business out of lighting the impossible. They can work wonders. http://www.musco.com/

[Dudley]

Originally posted by Locai
Well, if they can light up Daytona Speedway and Burke Lakefront Airport, I would assume that they can safely light something like Sepang.

Musco Lighting is the company in the US that's made a business out of lighting the impossible. They can work wonders. http://www.musco.com/

Lighting a bowl is hardly a tricky concept.

Airports are largely set up for this to begin with and is a flat piece of land that's reletively compact in circuit terms. Sepang is twisty, hilly and considerably more difficult as a challenge.

Not to say it's impossible, but those aren't the greatest examples.

[Gemini]

1 in 20 races would be nice variation.

Street circuit would be mine choice

[jonpollak]

Finally!!!!
A gig for Jp in F1

Resume on it's way to FOM

Jp

[ebin]

Having watched Cleveland under the lights I would love to see a F1 race under the lights - it's just gorgeous to watch. It'd have to be a fairly compact track without a lot of elevation change.

Monaco would be nuts under the lights but probably a bit too dangerous.

Yes: Indy, Montreal, Melbourne, Sepang
Maybe: Bahrain, Shanghai, Brazil
No: Hungary, Silverstone, Magny Cours, Fuji, Nurburgring/Hock, Istanbul, Spa, Barcelona, Monaco

Bahrain would be pretty nuts too I think, a desert setting where it's darkness all around and then an oasis of light. Too bad the track sucks.

[Dudley]

Indy seems the logical choice to me but I'm supporting Melbourne on the grounds I wouldn't have to get up at 3 ;)

[F1 Tor.]

Quite honestly, I'd really have to see one first to make a judgment on it. It sounds very interesting and all. Perhaps have one during the season just to spice it up a bit. It would be interesting to see who the best "night" drivers were, etc.