27 replies to this topic

[Megatron]

I have a few questions about Senna's tenture at Lotus.

1. Why was Senna NO 12. He was the NO1 driver, so why did he not get NO 11?

2. Did Elio De Anglis leave Lotus on his own, or did Senna want him out?

3. In 1986, Senna had a driver named Johnny Dumfries as teamate. This guy did horrible, quailfying no better than 8th, and scored a might 3 points. Was it him, or the fact that Lotus proablly concentrated a great deal on Senna?

[Jonathan]

I am not an expert on this era, so my comments are only my opinion and not supported, but here goes :

1. Why was Senna NO 12. He was the NO 1 driver, so why did he not get NO 11?

I think No. 11 belonged to Elio and Senna was actually Mansell's replacemnt at Lotus. I dont think the number had any bearing on the driver rank within the team.

2. Did Elio De Anglis leave Lotus on his own, or did Senna want him out?

I believe Elio left when Lotus started using Honda Engines, and Honda wanted a Japanese driver on the team in exchange for letting Lotus use their engines. Elio was actually very talanted, origionally he was thought to be very much better than Mansell.

3. In 1986, Senna had a driver named Johnny Dumfries as teamate. This guy did horrible, quailfying no better than 8th, and scored a might 3 points. Was it him, or the fact that Lotus proablly concentrated a great deal on Senna?

Probably Both. If I recall correctly Johnny was an Earl of Scotland. Pehaps he paid for the privilage of driving. (?) I am at not sure about this.

[DAT]

no the car number usually has no bearing on the drivers status within a team (except the champion has n1 of course)remember in 1993 senna had 8 to andretti's 7.

the Lotus team was hugely centred around senna, but dumfries wasn't a good f1 driver at all. after 1986 dumfries was replaced by satoru nakajima at hondas request, although nakajima wasn't good at all he was still considerably better.
after 1986 dumfries drove jaguar sportscars and ended up winning LeMans in 1988, as co-driver to andy wallace and sometime f1 driver jan lammers.
when his father died in 1994 dumfries became one of the richest persons ever to have ever competed in f1, he inherited the title of 'Marquess of Bute'

i wouldn't be surprised if senna told lotus to get rid of d angelis, as he obviuosly had a say in who got the n2 at lotus (he blocked derek warwick from driving, saying they didn't have the resources to run a proper 2 car team, with 2 top drivers.)
but i actually think de angelis left lotus because he was a bit despirited that senna dominated him in terms of speed straight from the outset and that by the seasons end senna was firm favourite in the team recieving all the attention. de angelis had always been equal n1 with mansell and scored lotus' only win during thier 5 years with them.

actually de angelis did pretty well in 1985, even though he couldn't keep up with senna (esp in Q sessions) he was far more consistent and reliable and finished not too many pts behind.


[This message has been edited by DAT (edited 12-27-1999).]

[Psychoman]

Waitasec--MarquESS??? Is there something we should (or shouldn't bother asking) know about this guy???

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[Dennis David]

'fraid not Psycho

Main Entry: mar·quess
Pronunciation: 'mär-kw&s
Variant(s): or mar·quis /'mär-kw&s, mär-'kE/
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural mar·quess·es or mar·quis·es /-kw&-s&z/; or mar·quis /-'kE(z)/
Etymology: Middle English marquis, markis, from Middle French marquis, alteration of marchis, from marche march
Date: 14th century
1 : a nobleman of hereditary rank in Europe and Japan
2 : a member of the British peerage ranking below a duke and above an earl
- mar·quess·ate /'mär-kw&-s&t/ or mar·quis·ate /'mär-kw&-z&t, -s&t/ noun

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Dennis David
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Grand Prix History
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[Hot Rod Otis]

Hey Megatron, I'm here from 7th Gear..

As to how Johnny Dumfries, who was a bit of a plonker got the Lotus seat. Lotus originally had intended to sign Derek Warwick to partner Senna in 86. Senna objected to this saying that Lotus didn't have the resources to support 2 front line drivers. This caused quite a stir in the British media at the time. The Brits were upset saying that Senna felt threatened by Warwick and didn't want a teammate who might challenge him, although the thought of Mr Warwick being anywhere near Senna's times is a stretch. Dumfries got the ride because he had big bucks and also he was hired to please the British and probably John Player too. In retrospect, Senna was right because Lotus only had 1 more good year, 87, then when Senna left, the long slide into oblivion began.

[Psychoman]

Ah, thank you Mr. Dictionaryguy

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"Hey there, all you middle men
Throw away your fancy clothes
And while you're out there sittin' on a fence
So get off your ass and come down here
'Cause rock 'n' roll ain't no riddle man
To me it makes good, good sense"
-Brian Johnson

[ghinzani]

Im a big Senna fan but to call Dumfries useless is a bit of a liberty - he won the 84 British F3 series by utterly dominating and finished a close runner up in the Euro championship at the same time. He was also picked as a test driver by Ferrari in 85. Above Ivan Capelli and Allesandro Santin.

[Barry Boor]

Quote: "Above Ivan Capelli and Allesandro Santin."

Capelli, I know well, but Allesandro Santin............?????

[LittleChris]

Wasn't it Bernard Santin ? Also Gerhard Berger raced in the Euro F3 championship that year before making his F1 debut ( Austria ? ) and he certainly wasn't on Dumfries' pace. I also seem to remember that Capelli won the championship from Dumfries 2nd despite rumours about the airbox being illegal on Capelli's car ( Coloni run ? )

[Zawed]

Originally posted by LittleChris
I also seem to remember that Capelli won the championship from Dumfries 2nd despite rumours about the airbox being illegal on Capelli's car ( Coloni run ? )

Yes I believe Capelli was run by Coloni in Euro F3, who later came to F1.

[Jonas A]

Dumfries got the ride because he had big bucks

Johnny Dumfries, who was a bit of a plonker

He didn't pay for that ride! He got the seat because he was British and had lots of talent. That Senna made most of his teammates look like plonkers is another matter. De Angelis was also from a rich family and he didn't pay either. Ride buyers and plonkers was not Lotus style.

[William Dale Jr]

The way I understand it, is that Dumfries wasn't anywhere as near as bad as he appeared in that season at Lotus - his equipment was not at the same level as Senna's, and I'm sure that he wasn't paying his way....

Don't forget, Johnny won Le Mans for Jaguar in 1988, and was also a full-time driver for them in the WSC that year. And Tom was never known to put plonkers in his lead cars...

For more information on Johnny Dumfries, check the 8W site. I'm sure he appeared in one of the more recent quizzes.

[Frank de Jong]

The Lammers' LM Jaguar wasn't exactly the TWR lead car. In fact, IIRC Dumfries had a lot of accidents before Le Mans, spoiling Jan's chances of the title (but perhaps I'm biased towards my countryman...). I remember that I was very surprised that Dumfries drove the way he did...

[ghinzani]

Originally posted by Barry Boor
Quote: "Above Ivan Capelli and Allesandro Santin."

Capelli, I know well, but Allesandro Santin............?????

Sandro Santin was Italian F3 champion in 84, Capelli European - and yes Capelli did have a bent car by all accounts. Johnny D was pretty talented by all accounts... Bernard Santal is the guy thats being confused here - he was a swiss guy who raced in French f3 mid 80s.

[Geza Sury]

I've just heard, that Senna wanted his fellow Brazilian and friend Mauricio Gugelmin to drive alongside him in 1986. But JPS said, one Brazlian is totally enough... Can anyone confirm this?

Gugelmin had won the British F3 championship in 1985, so he was more or less ready for F1 in 1986.

Sury

[William Dale Jr]

I think that's true, I remember reading that in Christopher Hilton's book on Senna, "As Time Goes By". Senna wanted Gugelmin to get the drive, but JPS wanted a Brit, first Warwick and then Dumfries.

[Rediscoveryx]

Still, JPS sponsored Gugelmin in European F3000

[ghinzani]

I think it was part of the payoff from JPS for Gugelmin not getting the ride....

[holiday]

In 1986, John Player Special, title sponsor of Team Lotus, wanted a British driver. They originally selected Derek Warwick, but after Ayrton Senna quickly vetoed Warwick, a replacement in the form of Johnny Dumfries was hastily selected.

As with many of Senna's teammates, Dumfries produced no threat to Senna at all. He was clearly out of his league, and while Senna would win pole position after pole postion, Dumfries never made it on to the grid higher than 8th. In fact he even DNQ'd at Monaco. He did, though, manage a couple of decent performances that landed him in the points, with a 5th at Hungry and a 6th in Australia, just enough to not get a full biography on this site. With JPS pulling out at the end of the season, there was no reason to keep Dumfries, and he later on found a home in sports car racing.

In 1988, Dumfries won the 24 Hours of Le Mans driving a TWR Jaguar V12. He was certainly more suited to sports cars than to Formula One.

I casually found some information about Earl Dumfries on this interesting page -which is rather telling, I fear ;)
http://f1rejects.cro...ucky/index.html

[Rediscoveryx]

To be fair to Johnny, it has to be said that the DNQ at Monaco 1986 was hardly his fault. He had gearbox trouble and only got one flying lap (marred by gear selection trouble) before his car stopped completely.

He then wasn't allowed to use Senna's spare car...

[ghinzani]

Dumfries was linked to race seats at Brabham, Tyrrell, Ferrari (3rd car, 4 cylinder) and Toleman - not too shabby I would say. That he ended up barely having a few F3000 races with Onyx and Lola because of a lack of dough showed he didnt then have access to family money. He was rumoured to be recieving backing from ROthmans and BP for 85 but both fell through, or else he would have probably been in the (difficult) Brabham. If he had it might have been his desultory 86 experience a year early I would wager. Dumfries was THE standout F3 driver of 1984, no question - he obliterated the opposition EVERYWHERE.

[Mallory Dan]

Dumfries was linked to race seats at Brabham, Tyrrell, Ferrari (3rd car, 4 cylinder) and Toleman - not too shabby I would say. That he ended up barely having a few F3000 races with Onyx and Lola because of a lack of dough showed he didnt then have access to family money. He was rumoured to be recieving backing from ROthmans and BP for 85 but both fell through, or else he would have probably been in the (difficult) Brabham. If he had it might have been his desultory 86 experience a year early I would wager. Dumfries was THE standout F3 driver of 1984, no question - he obliterated the opposition EVERYWHERE.

Yeah but he wasn't up against much was he Ghinzy, with the benefit of hindsight.

[ghinzani]

Hmm - Capelli, Berger, Neilsen, Davy Jones, Claudio Langes, Allen Berg, Spence, Radisich, Campos. Some in not all of them werent too shabby in F3.

[kayemod]

Hmm - Capelli, Berger, Neilsen, Davy Jones, Claudio Langes, Allen Berg, Spence, Radisich, Campos. Some in not all of them werent too shabby in F3.

All perfectly true, but after that Johnny's progress seemed to have more than a touch of Jan Magnusson syndrome about it.

[ghinzani]

Agreed, but like Jan he could still drive - witness his efforts in Group C for instance post F1.

[Paolo]

Dumfries was considered an excellent driver before that unfortunate Lotus year.

[Manfred Cubenoggin]

I recall reading a bit...possibly right here on TNF...that Johnnie Dumfries was at a Lotus test session when his ride went sour prematurely. He got the opportunity to jump into the absent Senna's car and immediately carved massive chunks out of his best times ending up but a couple of tenths behind Senna's best ever. Confirmation?

If so, even hinting that he's a plonker is offside in the extreme.

Edited by Manfred Cubenoggin, 16 July 2009 - 00:00.