60 replies to this topic

[ian senior]

I see that Silverstone is to be upgraded yet again, presumably to keep the Formula Ecclestone guys sweet, and in yet another attempt to face off the prospect of the British Grand Prix being replaced by a race in Indonesia or Vietnam or some other place where smoking is still allowed.

Forgive me, but exactly what is the big deal about Silverstone? What is so special about it as a circuit - in the days when we had the proper Woodcote Corner, there was a particular challenge that drivers had to meet, but that's long gone. Has there been any especially remarkable racing that could not have been replicated elsewhere? Is it the atmosphere (like hell it is)? Is it the beauty of the circuit and its setting (again, like hell it is)? Is it the ease of access (repeat....)

It's always been a mystery to me. Anything that Silverstone had was exceeded by anything that circuits such as Brands or Oulton could offer.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Safety probably.

[FrankB]

One big thing in Silverstone's favour as far as I am concerned is that it takes about 45 minutes from closing my front door to being in the circuit, watching the racing.

[Andrew Kitson]

That is the only thing that has improved. I arrived at Silverstone for the GP last year at about 8am on the Sunday and joined the queue at the exit slip road, however not having to stop once! The new A43 dual carriageway and link road to the circuit have improved things no end.

[Sharman]

Ian
Loud applause for your views on Brands and Oulton in particular Oulton
John

[James Page]

Originally posted by ian senior
Anything that Silverstone had was exceeded by anything that circuits such as Brands or Oulton could offer.

Sadly, Silverstone does have a lot of space, into which a huge number of motorhomes and corporate hospitality suites can be fitted. And, in this day and age, that seems to be more important than the quality of the circuit…

Having said that, and purely in comparison to a lot of modern F1 circuits, the first half of the Silverstone lap is probably quite exciting for the drivers.

[Andrew Kitson]

Thing is...if they got rid of the ridiculous 'Vale, Abbey chicane and Bridge-Priory-Brooklands-Luffield mickey mouse parts, they would have even more room on the infield! Bring back Woodcote and so what if the lap times would be down to about 1 minute!

[Ross Stonefeld]

Oulton is barely acceptable for even an F3 car, and you think contemporary F1 should run there?

[RTH]

Quite agree Ian, today it is a souless place and you can see nothing of any consequence.

In the early 1970s it was a joy .

[john aston]

Never did like Silverstone- cold joyless place with a high pomposity count, especially compared to Brands Hatch which was not only an infinitely better circuit but always had a wonderful atmosphere .I have seen some sights at the'Stone though- Peterson in 73, THAT lap by Keke,Mansell at Stowe in 87 included.I did love the old Woodcote- who didn't - and Club was terrific too.New circuit has its moments- disagree re Bridge - if you stand and watch a GP car through there without your heart missing a beat you've got too blase.The rest of the complex is a silly joke, agreed .

Me - I'd like to see a 312T being given some stick around Cadwell- our best circuit.

[MCS]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
Oulton is barely acceptable for even an F3 car, and you think contemporary F1 should run there?

Ross - with all due respect, read Ian's post again. Particularly the final paragraph.

As Richard has pointed out, (most of) the racing in the seventies at Silverstone was quite exeptional - engendered largely by the circuit's layout. But ultimately, it was an airfield circuit and not - to my opinion anyway - in the same league as Oulton Park.

If you don't believe me, ask people like Brian Redman, Frank Gardner, Peter Gethin and co.

[Ross Stonefeld]

And I would agree with you. But Oulton is not a suitable modern F1 track. Neither is Brands or even Donington. You'd have to tear the tracks up to get anything.

And I think its somewhat good that things are spread out a bit. So Silverstone gets F1, Donington gets MotoGP, Brands gets superbike and others. Far better than other countries where one circuit gets all the international attention.

[Alan Cox]

Modern F1 can only be run at places with scope for vast run-off areas, acres of concrete for transporters/motor homes/hospitality marquees and good helicopter-landing facilities. Hence, by default, the locations are going to be relatively soul-less - apart from Monaco, which always has been a special case because of its social and financial connections.

Silverstone can accommodate these requirements whereas other British circuits never could. Thank goodness Moto GP is happy to accept the Donington facilities as it's a far superior circuit to Silverstone on which to watch motorcycle (or any other kind of) racing.

[David M. Kane]

I'm waiting to see what the new owners of Donnington do...

[bradbury west]

Talking of acres of space, helicopter pads and landing strips, it must only be a matter of time before Fortress Ricard is used for the French GP. Or have I got it all wrong again?

RL

[David Lawson]

Let's be fair to Silverstone, watching an F1 car through Copse, Becketts and Bridge is pretty bloody impressive and you get a good view from the spectator banks almost the whole way round the lap.

The layout and flow is better than a typical Tilke monstrosity and you can at least get around the paddock and garages easily (other than at GPs) as well as getting fairly reasonable food in the paddock diner immediately behind the pits.

David

[MCS]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
And I would agree with you. But Oulton is not a suitable modern F1 track. Neither is Brands or even Donington. You'd have to tear the tracks up to get anything.

And I think its somewhat good that things are spread out a bit. So Silverstone gets F1, Donington gets MotoGP, Brands gets superbike and others. Far better than other countries where one circuit gets all the international attention.

Fair enough. Good point.

[sterling49]

Originally posted by ian senior
I see that Silverstone is to be upgraded yet again, presumably to keep the Formula Ecclestone guys sweet, and in yet another attempt to face off the prospect of the British Grand Prix being replaced by a race in Indonesia or Vietnam or some other place where smoking is still allowed.

Forgive me, but exactly what is the big deal about Silverstone? What is so special about it as a circuit - in the days when we had the proper Woodcote Corner, there was a particular challenge that drivers had to meet, but that's long gone. Has there been any especially remarkable racing that could not have been replicated elsewhere? Is it the atmosphere (like hell it is)? Is it the beauty of the circuit and its setting (again, like hell it is)? Is it the ease of access (repeat....)

It's always been a mystery to me. Anything that Silverstone had was exceeded by anything that circuits such as Brands or Oulton could offer.

My sentiments entirely Ian, bravo! IMHO Brands and Oulton had so much more to offer in many respects. The atmosphere and undulations for a start, and the trees, just look back at pictures from the "MOTOR SHOW 200 meeting at Brands and see the myriad of autumnal colours.......a British Watkins Glen! BTW, I was also at Silverstone in the '70's and saw young Ronnie in the 72 at Woodcote and agree, that bend was (past tense) special.

Sterling

[Allan Lupton]

And of course every F1-required mod. to Silverstone makes it less suitable for old-fashioned motor sport. It was always an uninteresting place, but now it's like racing round an industrial estate with a prison camp as an infield. The bogs are better of course, but still . . . .

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
Oulton is barely acceptable for even an F3 car, and you think contemporary F1 should run there?

That's more a statement about contemporary F3 cars than about Oulton. It's still one of the best places to watch racing in the UK.

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by Allan Lupton
And of course every F1-required mod. to Silverstone makes it less suitable for old-fashioned motor sport. It was always an uninteresting place, but now it's like racing round an industrial estate with a prison camp as an infield. The bogs are better of course, but still . . . .

Have to agree. Silverstone's never had any sense of occasion to me. It's somewhere I go if there's a particular race I want to see, not somewhere I think of with any degree of warmth - whereas Oulton, Donny, Brands and even Croft are places where the atmosphere and surroundings are just conducive to a great day out.

[Rob29]

Originally posted by petefenelon


That's more a statement about contemporary F3 cars than about Oulton. It's still one of the best places to watch racing in the UK.

Agree there. Cars need to be built to fit the circuits rather than the other way around. Al that Brands & Oulton need for F1 is some grandstands and temporary ones would do as for temporary circuits.

[Sharman]

I used to love that early morning feeling, even a wet morning at Oulton or Brands, when loads of people you knew were off loading race cars or even turning up having driven them to the circuit. Never got the same buzz at the Stones, it was almost as though one was waiting for the sarn't -major to start chivvying people about. And the breakfasts were bloody awful as well. best breakfasts in the 80s were Donington, before that in the 50s & 60s it was a cuppa and a bacon butty if you were lucky.

[Alan Cox]

Originally posted by Rob29

All that Brands & Oulton need for F1 is some grandstands and temporary ones would do as for temporary circuits.

As great a supporter of Oulton Park as I am, Rob, I would have to concede that it would take a bit more than a few grandstands to render it suitable for modern Formula 1...........

[David Beard]

Originally posted by Alan Cox

As great a supporter of Oulton Park as I am, Rob, I would have to concede that it would take a bit more than a few grandstands to render it suitable for modern Formula 1...........

But Alan...Formula 1 needs to make itself suitable for Oulton Park

[bigears]

Originally posted by bradbury west
Talking of acres of space, helicopter pads and landing strips, it must only be a matter of time before Fortress Ricard is used for the French GP. Or have I got it all wrong again?

RL

A certain Bernard doesn't want any riff raff ruinining his High Tech Test Track...

[Barry Boor]

I note that planning has been approved for the creation of a totally new pits/paddock complex at the track.

Surprise, surprise, it's being moved.... totally moved, that is, down to the straight between Club and Abbey, which will be, quote "re-aligned".

I can't wait to see what they plan to do with Abbey! The thought of a pack of F.1 cars trying to feed through any sort of chicane there on lap 1 is hard to envisage without much clanging and banging. Maybe we will get the old Abbey sweep back...

I guess now they will be able to keep the huge grandstand that runs from Woodcote down the current pit straight and build another huge stand opposite the pits. I'm sure they can see the possibility of many more ££££s.

Maybe they'll by-pass that silly set of corners at Luffield etc, then we would have a lap time of about 45 seconds!

But, will they come up with some way of stopping the wind.....

[driverider]

As a no-mark who has ridden and driven circuits from the Isle of Man to Silverstone and Spa to Knockhill I celebrate the variety!

The whole point is the challenge of optimising your bike or car on any circuit on any day in any weather and winning

Long live the ongoing lifeblood of development of race circuits for racing - remember brooklands

And No! - I hate the chicanes that have emasculated and sanitised circuits like Oulton Park (my favourite) and robbed us of great heart in mouth corners like knickerbrook, woodcote etc

[Andrew Kitson]

Whatever they do with the circuit, it is vital we have a GP with so much F1 involvement in this country at all levels. There is simply not the room at any of the other circuits for the modern F1 circus, therefore it can only be at Silverstone or if not, do a 'Monaco' and have a prestigious London street race.

No it is not Ronnie through Woodcote, nor is it 1960s F3 slipstreamers or frantic 1970s/80s FF 5-abreast down the club straight, we will sadly never ever have that back. In modern terms I think Silverstone suits F1 very well and is one of the better Grand Prix circuits. To see a modern car dart through Copse with barely a lift, then the awesome Becketts sweepers is fantastic! These are fast corners, oh so rare on more and more new F1 circuits (Turkey excepted which is brilliant...but very bland looking!)

But as it is a modern GP circuit with acres of tarmac, gravel, armco and no doubt 'space age' looking pits (when the new ones are built), there are other forms of racing that suit other 'nostalgic' looking circuits far better, Oulton, Brands & Donington. Maybe it is the more scenic setting? The Silverstone Classic should become the Oulton classic, expand the Gold Cup meeting, ( better still the Cadwell Classic) and put the cars in a proper setting. Bugattis and ERAs charging around on the modern GP Silverstone track look so out of place.

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by Andrew Kitson
..... put the cars in a proper setting. Bugattis and ERAs charging around on the modern GP Silverstone track look so out of place.

I wonder if there's a still unspoiled WW2 aerodrome where the early Silverstone layouts could be recreated? You know the sort of thing - oil drums as course markers, straw bales at the corners, a single rope to hold back the crowd, pits built out of scaffolding, timekeepers in an old bus, a press tent, army surplus field telephones to communicate with the marshals ......

[Andrew Kitson]

That would be brilliant. Or find somewhere that looks like Silverstone did up until it was changed beyond all recognition when the spectators were not 5 miles away.

[IanDalziel]

Originally posted by Alan Cox
Modern F1 can only be run at places with scope for vast run-off areas, acres of concrete for transporters/motor homes/hospitality marquees and good helicopter-landing facilities.

Why?

[driverider]

Originally posted by Andrew Kitson
Whatever they do with the circuit, it is vital we have a GP with so much F1 involvement in this country at all levels.

Bugattis and ERAs charging around on the modern GP Silverstone track look so out of place.

My point entirely - celebrate the variety and support the development of racing circuits for racing

Of course they look out of place - its a modern circuit and the cars are 70 years old but it is none-the-less entertaining in or out of the car!

its that entertainment value that perpetuates the exhibition and exercise of these cars

[Andrew Kitson]

'cos Bernie says so.

[IanDalziel]

Originally posted by Andrew Kitson
'cos Bernie says so.

Quite. But that's why it WON'T happen, not why it CAN'T.
They raced at Donington in 1993, they race at Monaco every year. There's nothing intrinsic or essential to the race that says it has to happen in the middle of a business park.

[Barry Boor]

Andrew, that is exactly, word for word, what I was going to say!

[Andrew Kitson]

Originally posted by driverider

Of course they look out of place - its a modern circuit and the cars are 70 years old but it is none-the-less entertaining in or out of the car!

Point taken. Perhaps that is why the revival is such a success, crowd figure wise. The cars look right, the circuit looks right with them on it, the atmosphere is right. The people who don't like it seem to be the crews as they can't park their modern transporters and motorhomes in the paddock. Every other historic race promoter would kill for the crowd figures his Lordship attracts. It has appeal.

[Andrew Kitson]

Originally posted by Barry Boor
Andrew, that is exactly, word for word, what I was going to say!

Which bit?

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by driverider


My point entirely - celebrate the variety and support the development of racing circuits for racing

Of course they look out of place - its a modern circuit and the cars are 70 years old but it is none-the-less entertaining in or out of the car!

its that entertainment value that perpetuates the exhibition and exercise of these cars

Yes, but if it's an exhibition, then you should be able to see it without the aid of binoculars. Much of the entertainment value of watching any open-wheel racing car built before about 1959 is that you can see what is happening in the cockpit. If you're hundreds of yards from the action, what's the point?

If only the LCC hadn't insisted on closing Crystal Palace we'd still have the ideal circuit for historics ....

[driverider]

Originally posted by Andrew Kitson


Point taken. Perhaps that is why the revival is such a success, crowd figure wise. The cars look right, the circuit looks right with them on it, the atmosphere is right. The people who don't like it seem to be the crews as they can't park their modern transporters and motorhomes in the paddock. Every other historic race promoter would kill for the crowd figures his Lordship attracts. It has appeal.

Andrew I agree entirely - Goodwood is sensational in and out of the car because you have the lot there - the venue, the cars, the people! its a period drama executed beautifully!

[Andrew Kitson]

Originally posted by Vitesse2

If only the LCC hadn't insisted on closing Crystal Palace we'd still have the ideal circuit for historics ....

Now you're talking!

[Andrew Kitson]

Originally posted by bigears


A certain Bernard doesn't want any riff raff ruinining his High Tech Test Track...

Slightly O/T, but have you seen Paul Ricard on Google Earth? It looks amazing with the bizarre
painted stripes right around the circuit and you get some idea of the length of that incredible
back straight, with the flat out 'signes' at the end of it. Yes bring back F1 racing there, just for
that corner...

[drivers71]

I bemoan, like most of you, the passing of the great corners and the on-set of chicanes. But this was inevitable given the advances in speed through technology (especially in F1), and a higher regard for safety.

My first GP at Silverstone was 1973. and my first view of the circuit was between the old Woodcote and Start Line grandstands; at ground level it was just possible to see, over the miniscule grass bank and sleepers, the cars at the exit of Woodcote. It was early morning practise on the day before the GP, and Jackie Stewart was on an empty track. You could hear the Tyrrell's DFV all around the track, and when he hove in to sight, full tilt through Woodcote.......................I appreciated it. My eyes were virtually at track level, and I could see under the car as it sped past, with four minimal tyre contact points incomprehensively keeping the car on the track. It sent shivvers down my spine and made the hair stand up on the back of my neck.
Remembering it fondly all these years later, it still does.

At the time the initial chicane was constructed at that point (perhaps 'coned' would be more accurate) the quoted reason was that there was insufficient room to increase the run-off area outside Woodcote. The grandstands, after all, were scaffolding poles and planks of wood - the reluctance to move those and increase the run-off cost us one of THE great corners.
And it's been downhill from that point in time, as far as I'm concerned. Subsequent emasculations have taken place, culminating in the abomination that is the Luffield complex - a pure pander to hospitality (which I must admit, I've 'enjoyed' several times, but only through gritted teeth)
I much preferred Brands as a 'watching' circuit, but it was unable, or unwilling to facilitate the constantly revising requirements of F1. I guess levelling out the North Downs would have been equally prohibitively expensive as moving the Woodcote grandstands back?
We need a 'Grumpy Old Men' thread, I think.

[HiRich]

Originally posted by Alan Cox
Thank goodness Moto GP is happy to accept the Donington facilities as it's a far superior circuit to Silverstone on which to watch motorcycle (or any other kind of) racing.

Though oddly WSBK puts on a good show on the Silverstone GP circuit, dare I say it better than MotoGP at Donington.

[kayemod]

Originally posted by drivers71

We need a 'Grumpy Old Men' thread, I think.

What do you mean 'thread' ? We've had an entire 'Grumpy Old Men' forum for quite a few years.

[drivers71]

Originally posted by kayemod


What do you mean 'thread' ? We've had an entire 'Grumpy Old Men' forum for quite a few years.

Then maybe TNF should be re-named?

[kayemod]

Originally posted by IanDalziel


Quite. But that's why it WON'T happen, not why it CAN'T.
They raced at Donington in 1993, they race at Monaco every year. There's nothing intrinsic or essential to the race that says it has to happen in the middle of a business park.

That's true, but although St Bernard hasn't missed an opportunity to snipe at Silverstone for almost as long as I can remember, we can only guess at his real motives, as I've never believed that the standard of the facilities was anything but an excuse. How can a man who seems to be happy for a right closet of a place like Interlagos to be an apparently unquestioned fixture in the calendar be taken seriously when moaning about the pits, spectator access, paddock etc at a place like our own dear Silverstone? There's no comparison of course, Interlagos gets the wooden spoon for all these things, but for some reason "It's important to race in South America", no matter how awful the place, and no matter how sub-standard the facilities. Why doesn't UK born Bernie think that it's even more important to race at Silverstone? An even bigger puzzle to me is Turkey, to pick just one of the recent mid & far eastern new boys. The locals aren't interested in F1 for the most part, and probably never will be, and the country has no real motor racing heritage, but in the lead-up to this year's race, Bernie said that it was "Important for F1 to race in Turkey", those were his exact words. Why for God's sake? I can't think of a single reason, apart of course from the fact that one BCE happens to own the track. Surely all this is about something more than just the money?

[simon drabble]

at the risk of sounding contrarian I love Silverstone - the International circuit is great as is the Historic GP one. The facilities are superb and I get excited everytime I go there - with the good run offs you feel safe to really go for it.
Goodwood is superb as well but you cannot compare the two - the Revival is a class of its own and I am still on cloud nine having recieved my invitation last week!

[Sharman]

Originally posted by kayemod


I can't think of a single reason, apart of course from the fact that one BCE happens to own the track. Surely all this is about something more than just the money?

Could the reason for Shorthouse's dislike of Silverstone be connected with the ownership of he circuit? Has he ever been proposed of membership, when and by whom? Did he not wish to be proposed or was he blackballed?
Who can tell us.?

[Graham Gauld]

Reference Andrew Kitson's comments about Paul Ricard I have attached a photo taken this afternoon at the Ferrari Days event showing Gregor Fisken in the Ferrari P4. Note the blue and red colour strips.
As was pointed out today, Paul Ricard is now a TESTING CIRCUIT with occasional motor racing rather than a RACING CIRCUIT with Testing !
This has allowed them to experiment with various ideas and the blue and red idea is very interesting and the idea is to avoid using gravel traps. The blue surface is very abrasive and if a car goes on to it at any speed it will slow down very fast and flatspot the tyres. If it goes beyond that on to the red it is equally abrasive and will pull a car to a stop without any threat of the car digging into gravel and perhaps turning over.
I was told today this event this weekend is the only actual race meeting to be held at the Test Track this year though there may be the odd private event.
To be fair to Mr E the circuit is quite remarkable, very modern with every facility you would wish for, a wide pit line etc etc. Even the drive into the circuit is beautifully landscaped.