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Matra F3 and F2


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#1 Gerard Gamand

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Posted 26 March 2007 - 18:41

Last Week end I was in Nogaro (south of France) for the first heat of French Historic Championship. I go to see my good friend Patrick Jamin and I see two Matra chassis in his worshop !!

I think a total of 26 Matra F2 and F3 were built

1965 : 4 F3
1966 : 6 F3 and 6 F2
1967 : 3 F3 and 3 F2
1968 : 4 F2
1969 : update of 68

Where are they now ???

here the pic I take in the workshop

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#2 Cirrus

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Posted 26 March 2007 - 19:57

Those F3 Matras were little jewels! It's nice to see the car in the foreground with a correct sidedraft MAE, rather than the downdraft that would have been fitted later in it's contemporary racing career.

I'm only familiar with "Brabham" and "Lotus" Hewland sideplates. Were the ones in the picture a special Matra item?

Gerard - you ask "Where are they now?" - I wish I could answer "One of them is in my garage - ready to race this year!"

#3 Gerard Gamand

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Posted 26 March 2007 - 20:17

wonderfull !
Have you pic of the thing you have ?

#4 Cirrus

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Posted 26 March 2007 - 20:29

Sorry to disappoint you, Gerard - the important word in my reply was "WISH". I love 1 Litre F3 cars, and the Matras were beautifully made mini F1 cars.

Their rarity makes them even more desirable. I have resigned myself to never owning a Matra, but I would still like to have a Brabham BT28.......

#5 Allen Brown

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Posted 26 March 2007 - 20:30

Are some new ones being built? I saw a replica MS11 F1 car at Retromobile and there was a monocoque of a F2 car on the same stand which I guess was also a replica.

Allen

#6 Gerard Gamand

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Posted 26 March 2007 - 20:54

Cirrus,

would you excuse my poor english !

#7 M Needforspeed

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Posted 26 March 2007 - 22:21

Gerard,


the only infos I have is there is one F2 car that is at the Matra Romorantin museum in the Jacky Ickx Tyrrel livery ,and a MS 6 F 3 chassis participated in 2005 to the Retromobile Saint Cloud park show , as related in the now defunct great L AUTOMOPBILE HISTORIQUE mag...

this MS 6 was said to belong to the Romorantin Museum too, at that date.

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the 21 car nose with two yellow stripes was the mark of the Ford France entered Jo Schlesser MS 5 in 66 F2 races, with the SCA engine .Is it really this car ?

#8 Allen Brown

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Posted 27 March 2007 - 07:52

The cars at Retromobile were on a stand that has Romorantin Museum leaflets on it so I guess they were connected. They had one complete (probably genuine) F1 matra on display and the incomplete monocoque of "Matra MS11 04". There was also a MS7 (IIRC) monocoque standing up at the back of the stand.

I also recognised one of the people on the stand as someone who is usually in charge of the cars that come to Goodwood. Very distinctive beard. I've seen him a number of times but can't recall his name.

Anyone know the story?

Allen

#9 Bonde

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Posted 27 March 2007 - 14:56

Anyone got any hi-res photos of the Matras and/or their tubs? They seem so different to typical British and Italian cars of the period, it's nice to see the differences in more detail.

How many of the cars survive?

#10 D-Type

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Posted 27 March 2007 - 15:47

With Matra's aerospace background, they probably understood stressed skin or monocoque construction rather better than the British and Italians.

#11 Gerard Gamand

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Posted 27 March 2007 - 16:12

Here is a fine drawing of the very first chassis Matra MS1 F3 of 1965

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#12 David M. Kane

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Posted 27 March 2007 - 16:54

It looks very strong, and the workmanship is very high.

#13 Allen Brown

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Posted 27 March 2007 - 17:04

The rollover hoop looks like a bit of an afterthought.

Allen

#14 Gerard Gamand

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Posted 27 March 2007 - 17:23

Here a good period pic of Zolder F2 May 1966

#12 is Schlesser (Matra Sports with Ford FRance)
#11 is Beltoise (Matra Sports)
#25 is Jaussaud (Matra Sports)
#20 is Ickx (Tyrrell Racing Organisation)

missing is #4 for Graham Hill (John Coombs)

(img]http://img105.images...lder1966vp1.jpg[/img]

#15 Allen Brown

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Posted 27 March 2007 - 17:31

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#16 Cirrus

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Posted 27 March 2007 - 17:47

It looks very strong, and the workmanship is very high



Yes - that's why I referred to them as "little jewels" in an earlier post. I can't see the average F3 privateer with his mechanic repairing one in the field after a shunt, though...

Wonderful picture from Zolder, Gerard (I love the Uniroyal stickers over the Englebert sign). Any more like that?

#17 Gerard Gamand

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Posted 27 March 2007 - 18:07

Thanks Allen !
I'm too quick with imageshack...

#18 Gerard Gamand

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Posted 27 March 2007 - 18:19

Another interresting picture :

It is Max Bonnin with his private 1966 MS5 F3 who was still running in 1969.

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#19 Allen Brown

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Posted 27 March 2007 - 19:21

Bonnin's car was MS5-06 according to the F1 Register "Black Books"

Gérard Bazin had a Matra in French hillclimbs in 1969, maybe the ex-Potocki prototype MS5. J-F Rault also had a F3 Matra MS5 that season.

In 1970, Philippe Monot had the ex-Bonnin car, Danse had a F2 Matra and Bazin had his car again. Bazin ran his car for two further seasons.

Allen

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#20 Gerard Gamand

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Posted 27 March 2007 - 19:25

and a nice pic of The Matra MS5 of Pescarolo

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#21 VDP

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Posted 27 March 2007 - 19:26

what about Philippe Vidal F3 Tournesol car

#22 gerard BARATHIEU

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Posted 27 March 2007 - 19:32

BAZIN's car is MS5/09.It was an ex POTOCKI 's car.

Gerard BAZIN has his car to recently where it was for sale at Auction in PALAIS des CONGRES

one or two years ago with the MATRA MS9 ex STEWART.

the MATRA of BAZIN was not sale .

the Philippe MONOT 's car was MS5/06:it was the Max BONNIN 's car.

it is in FRANCE again and was showed during RETRO MOBILE last year :it is in red delivery.

it was for sale also .

Many of the MATRA are in FRANCE in private collection or in MUSEES DE ROMORATIN

and MOUGINS.

#23 gerard BARATHIEU

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Posted 01 April 2007 - 17:06

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here is the car of GERARD BAZIN at the auction in PALAIS des confres PARIS last year.

the car was not sold as I know.

#24 gerard BARATHIEU

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Posted 01 April 2007 - 17:08

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#25 gerard BARATHIEU

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Posted 01 April 2007 - 17:10

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#26 gerard BARATHIEU

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Posted 01 April 2007 - 17:19

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Here is the car ex Philippe MONOT at RETROMOBILE last year.

#27 gerard BARATHIEU

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Posted 01 April 2007 - 17:21

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#28 gerard BARATHIEU

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Posted 01 April 2007 - 17:23

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#29 Gerard Gamand

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Posted 12 May 2007 - 04:20

Gérard,

It's very strange to see a full red Matra !!
Red is for Scuderia...and blue for Ecurie

#30 cosworth bdg

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Posted 12 May 2007 - 06:06

Gerard , is MATRA now part of the RENAULT organisation?. cheers Peter N...

#31 Barry Boor

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Posted 12 May 2007 - 13:30

Here is a fine drawing of the very first chassis Matra MS1 F3 of 1965



and here, rather blurred, is that first F.3 car at speed from the '65 Monaco F.3 race.

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Note that the accepted and familiar Matra blue was not used at the beginning of the marque's history.

#32 Gerard Gamand

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Posted 21 May 2007 - 17:46

Good new !

the red Matra MS5 is blue again...as a TNF member proved, when he send me this beautiful picture.

On he photo, Marc Coschieri is tryng the wonderful thing.

It's the Matra MS5 #06 ex- Claude Vigreux and ex-Philippe Monot.

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#33 finn1581

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Posted 21 May 2007 - 17:52

Cars look superb, hope to see one out on the track soon

#34 Gerard Gamand

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Posted 21 May 2007 - 18:20

If you go to the Mont Ventoux historic Hill climb on June 2th, you could see this one !!

And the region is beautiful...

#35 AMICALEMANS

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Posted 22 May 2007 - 06:27

Matra was never a part of Renault; It is an independant company which last car was the previous Espace (they were building it for Renault) Matra is a part of Lagardere Group, but i am not sure that Matra Automobiles still exist, just because Lagardere did not make money with it. Renault build their own Espace now.

#36 robert dick

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Posted 22 May 2007 - 08:09

Originally posted by AMICALEMANS
... i am not sure that Matra Automobiles still exist,...


Matra Automobile was sold in September 2003 to Pininfarina SpA and was renamed Matra Automobile Engineering :
http://sitematrarama...largarpinin.htm

Philippe Guédon is working on an electric car for Vincent Bolloré's BatScap company (Bolloré is the owner of the 60-meter yacht Paloma on which Nicolas Sarkozy recently spent a few days after having been elected Président de la République) :
http://www.01men.com...me-de-l-espace/

#37 Gerard Gamand

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Posted 22 May 2007 - 09:01

Robert, thanks for this informations, very clear.

#38 Gerard Gamand

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Posted 25 May 2007 - 16:45

It's more easy to understand why Jacky Ickx DNF the 1967 German Grand Prix,
on his F2 Matra MS7...

(Some F2 was authorised to start this year, with the F1)

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#39 macoran

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Posted 25 May 2007 - 16:53

Originally posted by Gerard Gamand
It's more easy to understand why Jacky Ickx DNF the 1967 German Grand Prix,
on his F2 Matra MS7...

(Some F2 was authorised to start this year, with the F1)


Hodges in his A-Z says........"but authoritative French sources designate the F2 cars MS6"

The photo link title says **matrams5f2gpgermany1967ri2**

gentlemen ? faites vos jeux !

I am mixed up now

Great pic anyhow :up:

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#40 Gerard Gamand

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Posted 25 May 2007 - 17:10

I'm confused, I would say Matra MS"5" of course, and the Jacky Ickx chassis is MS5#11

Never heard of an MS"6" ??

#41 M Needforspeed

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Posted 25 May 2007 - 17:21

Originally posted by Gerard Gamand
I'm confused, I would say Matra MS"5" of course, and the Jacky Ickx chassis is MS5#11

Never heard of an MS"6" ??



the MS 6 was the number really attributed to Pescarolo and Jaussaud work team F3 cars during the 67 season .

#42 Gerard Gamand

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Posted 25 May 2007 - 19:14

I know, Needforspeed, I'm just put the question for an MS"6" in Formula 2. I never heard of that.

#43 Gerard Gamand

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Posted 25 May 2007 - 19:26

More explanation on the Matra type :


1965 : 4 chassis for Formula 3 : 2 of MS1 and 2 of MS2

1966 : 6 chassis for Formula 3 : MS5 (??? 1,2,3,4,5,6)
: 6 chassis for Formula 2 : MS5 (??? 7,8,9,10,11,12)

1967 : 3 chassis for Formula 3 : MS6 (01, 02, 03)
: 3 chassis for Formula 2 : MS7 (01, 02, 03,)

1968 : 4 chassis for Formula 2 : MS7 (04, 05, 06, 07)

#44 macoran

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Posted 25 May 2007 - 19:29

I am as confused as anyone else might be.....
what is this ?

Formule 2:

MS5 - 1966 - jezdil v anglickém týmu Johna Coombse.

MS6 - na kterém dojel Jacky Ickx (pozdější miláček fanoušků F1) na 3. místě v Nurnburgringu 1967

MS7 - vítězství v GP na Hockenheimu s J-P Beltoise v roce 1969.

Matra vyhrála Europe Trophy v roce 1967 (Jacky Ickx), 1968 (JP Beltoise), a v roce 1969 (Servoz-Gavin).

from this site: http://images.google...ttp...l=nl&sa=N

scroll down a wee bit

#45 Gerard Gamand

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Posted 25 May 2007 - 19:36

Marc,

Every body could make mistake...

You put a "6" in place of a "5" on your key board, and during 30 years, people talk about.

I really think (and all the serious historians too) that Ickx was on the Tyrrell chassis Matra MS5#11 at the Ring 67.

Here, an other fine shot of Ickx in the same car (at Cristal Palace 67)

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#46 philippe charuest

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Posted 25 May 2007 - 19:46

look like bruce mclaren himself of a m4A chasing Ickx

#47 macoran

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Posted 25 May 2007 - 19:47

Originally posted by Gerard Gamand
Marc,

Every body could make mistake...

You put a "6" in place of a "5" on your key board, and during 30 years, people talk about.

I really think (and all the serious historians too) that Ickx was on the Tyrrell chassis Matra MS5#11 at the Ring 67.

Here, an other fine shot of Ickx in the same car (at Cristal Palace 67)


I agree absolutely Gerard, and I have always thought of the Tyrrell Team Matra Jacky Ickx
drove at the ring in 1967 to be an MS5.

Just that when I read David Hodges bit I started searching.

I have noted how thorough your knowledge of French racing manufacturers is, that I have no doubt somebody,somewhere,sometime hit the wrong key, and others have just blindly copied the error.

Great pic BTW, hadn't seen it before....wil do fine for my collection :up:

#48 Gerard Gamand

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Posted 25 May 2007 - 19:48

Absolutly, the M4A was a lovely little F2, and it's Bruce himself behind the wheel.

#49 Barry Boor

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Posted 25 May 2007 - 20:07

I was there that day. Lovely weather; some beautiful cars and a host of top Grand Prix drivers, too!

#50 Gerard Gamand

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Posted 25 May 2007 - 20:15

You was lucky, it was the great days of F2 !