432 replies to this topic

[1969BOAC500]

Prompted by this thread, I took advantage of yesterdays' sunshine & hopped on a train to Hornsey.

 

I'm happy to say that the former Lotus showroom/office is still intact and in good condition. The five-windowpane frontage is again visible - complete with a large Lotus Seven graphic. The Club Lotus plaque placed on the building in 1984 is still firmly in place.

 

The Railway Hotel, most recently a rather dodgy 'Funky Brownz', is currently empty and the internals are being stripped.

 

Anyhow, I spent an interesting half-hour matching up the photos from 'Simpatico's posting above.

[mariner]

Not Hornsey but Cheshunt - the whole Delamare Road area is undergoing re-development into housing by a company called Inland Homes.

They have already knocked down a lot of the area and more clearance is due soon. The closure of the Tesco head office probably enabled all this as they owned a large number of the buildings in the road.

The Lotus factory and the Team Lotus/Components buildings are still intact and the current Team Lotus bulding occupant (Monster Gym) has a lease period remaining but it too will go eventually.

So if you want to see the Lotus Cheshunt site go quickly before it is housing.

[Regazzoni]

Not sure whether it is the right thread, but thought this might settle the age-old debate:

[BRG]

Not sure whether it is the right thread, but thought this might settle the age-old debate:

Not really because it is linguistic nonsense.  If I want linguistic expertise, I go to someone like the Oxford English Dictionary, not a car maker.  Like i wouldn't ask the OED about camber and castor angles for a front suspension design.  I wouldn't put Colin Chapman in Countdown's Dictionary Corner, and I wouldn't ask Susie Dent to build up a Lotus 69.

 

'There were half a dozen Lotus in the car park'

 

'The two Lotus qualified first and third'

 

'I have owned seven Lotus over the years'

 

It just doesn't work.  Use Lotuses, and it does.

[D-Type]

I agree. "Lotuses" sounds right, like "buses" while "Loti" just sounds affected - particularly as "lotus" isn't even a Latin word (they said "lotos")

[RogerFrench]

It only applies to Lotus-produced literature. The rest of us can write English as she is meant.

[john aston]

There was a tendency in the Sixties  for some of the more rakish journalists like Nick Brittan , Doug Blain et al to warble on about bloody Loti .It was as silly and irritating then as it is now. 'Lotuses' - how hard is that ? And Lotus ,but  as the  plural ...? Get outta here       

[Regazzoni]

English is not my mother-tongue, but always found "Loti" ridiculous because - one - it's not a Latin word, it is - two - a trademark name. Always thought the plural of Lotus, the cars, to be Lotuses, like Ferraris in the English usage (but not in Italian, where the plural is still Ferrari: una Ferrari, tre Ferrari). As Roger French says above, the note applies to the company literature, not the OED. Just don't call them Loti, it's painful. LOL

[1969BOAC500]

At least it became easier as we moved into the 70s - there could be no confusion ; Loti / Lotuses beacame John Player Specials. Just ask DSJ.....

[RogerFrench]

Or Texaco Stars, or just plain Lotuses. They weren't all Formula One.

[ensign14]

I agree. "Lotuses" sounds right, like "buses" while "Loti" just sounds affected - particularly as "lotus" isn't even a Latin word (they said "lotos")

It is a Latin word.  -os is not a nominative singular ending, at least by the time they get to Classical Latin.  "lotos" would be the accusative plural.  "Jim Clark drove several Lotos in his career."

 

Albeit it derives from a Greek word, which the Greeks probably nicked from the Hebrews.

 

I do quite like the idea of going full declension though.  "Jim Clark won two world titles Loto."

[john aston]

Looks like I may have been wrong . Peccavi  . Modesty prevents me from saying that even Homer nods

[D-Type]

It is a Latin word.  -os is not a nominative singular ending, at least by the time they get to Classical Latin.  "lotos" would be the accusative plural.  "Jim Clark drove several Lotos in his career."

 

Albeit it derives from a Greek word, which the Greeks probably nicked from the Hebrews.

 

I do quite like the idea of going full declension though.  "Jim Clark won two world titles Loto."

One reference says it was a variant 2nd declension word, keeping the "Greek" spelling.  But another said it was 4th declension in which case the plural would also be "Lotus".  But as Regazzoni says, it's an Anglicised brand name so in English it's "Lotuses".
I was intrigued to see that in Italian it is "tre Ferrari"

[ensign14]

The fourth declension is a different word.  Meaning "washing/bathing" (we get e.g. ablution from it) and is a proper Indo-European word (cognate with "lather").

[Regazzoni]

One reference says it was a variant 2nd declension word, keeping the "Greek" spelling.  But another said it was 4th declension in which case the plural would also be "Lotus".  But as Regazzoni says, it's an Anglicised brand name so in English it's "Lotuses".
I was intrigued to see that in Italian it is "tre Ferrari"

 

Ferrari is a surname that obviously became a brand name. The name itself is already a plural, of ferraio or fabbro ferraio (from Latin faber ferrarius), blacksmith.

 

Obviously it's not "una Ferraia" or "una Ferraria" (both horrible), it's one "Ferrari" in Italian and three "Ferrari" when more than one, not "three Blacksmiths" (cold, thank you, table no. 3).

 

Equally, in Italian it is one Alfa Romeo, two Alfa Romeo and three Alfa Romeo etc., not Alfe Romeo or Alfa Romei, both ridilculous .

 

Another example, William in Italian is Guglielmo. We don't translate Williams, the F1 brand name, as Guglielmi, literal plural of Guglielmo. Williams is Williams, like the pear.

[BRG]

Another example, William in Italian is Guglielmo. We don't translate Williams, the F1 brand name, as Guglielmi, literal plural of Guglielmo. Williams is Williams, like the pear.

When I was doing a bit of sprinting, there was a regular entrant called Stephen Guglielmi.  It never occurred to me that he was really just Steve Williams!

[bradbury west]

Like Giuseppe Verde is really just Joe Green....
Roger Lund

[ensign14]

I think I'd rather have a 2.5 litre Ferrari than a four-pint Smith.

 

 

^ Enzo Ferrari translated

Edited by ensign14, 12 April 2020 - 13:34.

[Regazzoni]

Like Giuseppe Verde is really just Joe Green....
Roger Lund

The composer Giuseppe Verdi would be Joe (Joseph) Greens, note the plural on verdi.

 

During the struggle for unification in mid 19th century when they played Verdi's operas at Milan's La Scala the public used to shout when applauding: Viva Verdi!

acronym for "Viva Vittorio Emanuele Re D'Italia", "Victor Emanuel King of Italy", to express their patriotism, which the Austrian occupier wouldn't have appreciated, they weren't exactly renown for their sense of humour....

[Allan Lupton]

I also came across Mr. Guglielmi, when he was in the Birkett 6-hour relay race.

It's a good thing we English-speakers don't translate our heros' names, otherwise we'd have had Lewis Beans and Tony Flour racing each other in Alfa Romeos in 1950

[Regazzoni]

I think I'd rather have a 2.5 litre Ferrari than a four-pint Smith.

 

 

^ Enzo Ferrari translated

I have always known and assumed the closer translation is Smith(s). Only, yesterday google translate kept returning "blacksmith" and it tied with the ale tongue in cheek. It shows that I am more - well, in fact exactly... - a Swiss-German lager kind of guy, rather than ales...

[bradbury west]

The composer Giuseppe Verdi would be Joe (Joseph) Greens, note the plural on verdi.

With only a slight knowledge of written Italian, but enough to know the plural elements, in the quest for humour I simply quoted the esteemed comedian and musician Victor Borge, or even Viktor Borge...
Exits left
Roger Lund

[Sterzo]

All of the above illustrates the wisdom of the Chinese languages, which have no plural. As a friend from Shanghai pointed out, nobody needs them. Just say the number with the noun (one man, two man, many man). What's not to understand?

[ensign14]

Ah, but you cannot simply say "two men".  You have to put a measure word between the number and the noun. 

 

So, in a rough translation, you have to say...

 

-two individual men

-two head cow

-two beast dog

-two volume book

-two fist knife

-two mouth family

-two strip snakes

 

And so on.  There are a few dozen measure words.  Some of the groups are a bit abstruse.  E.g. the group that includes lightbeams (which uses the word for road) also includes government orders.   And the group that includes pianos (which uses the word for frame) also includes airplanes. 

 

And the measure word for chair differs depending on whether they are in rows or not.

[Sterzo]

Didn't know that. I shall challenge my Chinese friend. Both of him.

[Alan Lewis]

I'm glad I chose to do my degree in mathematics...

[Rupertlt1]

Who is #9 at Goodwood, 18 June 1955: Lotus Mark VI, registration NUL 612?

 

Sorry, link not working.

 

RGDS RLT

Edited by Rupertlt1, 21 January 2023 - 08:01.

[Roger Clark]

Len Gibbs. Retired on first lap of a scratch race for up to 1250cc non s/c, 13th in a handicap. 

[Charles Helps]

Who is #9 at Goodwood, 18 June 1955: Lotus Mark VI, registration NUL 612?

 

Sorry, link not working.

 

RGDS RLT

This photo presumably https://library.revs...eteenth-members'-meeting/438178 .  A 1953 car originally owned by Philip Desoutter of machine tool fame

Edited by Charles Helps, 21 January 2023 - 14:17.

[Rupertlt1]

19th MEMBERS' MEETING

GOODWOOD—18th June 1955

Event 1—Five-lap Scratch Race (A) 

1st—#1 Equipe Endeavour (Dvr. T. Sopwith) Cooper Climax, registration NUO 400, 78.54 m.p.h.

2nd—#122 London Road Garage (Dvr. R. Mackenzie-Low) Elva, registration JPN 875

3rd—#20 W. A. Liddell, Buckler, registration OAA 300

4th—#8 M.G. A. McDowel, Lotus IX/85-Ford, registration PDD 76

 

RGDS RLT

 

 

 

Edited by Rupertlt1, 22 January 2023 - 10:00.

[dgs]

19th MEMBERS' MEETING

GOODWOOD—18th June 1955

Event 1—Five-lap Scratch Race (A) 

1st—#1 Equipe Endeavour (Dvr. T. Sopwith) Cooper Climax, registration NUO 400, 78.54 m.p.h.

2nd—#122 London Road Garage (Dvr. R. Mackenzie-Low) Elva, registration JPN 875

3rd—#20 W. A. Liddell, Buckler, registration OAA 300

4th—#8 M.G. A. McDowel, Lotus IX/85-Ford, registration PDD 76

 

RGDS RLT

 

 

 

No 9 Len Gibbs (LOtus Ford MkV1 (Reg NUL612) Shown as retired 0 lap in 'A Record of Motor Racing at Goodwood- Volume 1 by Robert Barker

[Rupertlt1]

Funny how the writing was on the wall by 1955 for the switch to a rear-engined sports car yet the garagistes clung to the front-engined concept through the 1950s, Lotus not switching until the 19 and 23, Elva the Mark 6, and Buckler not at all?

 

RGDS RLT 

Edited by Rupertlt1, 22 January 2023 - 10:03.

[Rupertlt1]

So when was the first competition appearance for Colin Chapman?

Possibly:

 

Berkhamsted & D.M.C. Lockhart-Bossingham Trial (November 1948)
In this trial the best performance up to
1½ litres was by C. D. F. Buckler
(Buckler) who lost no marks, winning the
Bossingham Cup and B.D.M.C. award.
T. Mooney won the Lockhart Cup with a
loss of 20 marks and B. H. Brown’s Ford
V8 Special, which lost 22 marks, the cup
for best unlimited performance by a
Berkhamsted member. The Appleton-
Wick-Potter N.W. London M.C. Allard
team took the team award, Appleton and
Potter netting the Team Two-Some.
First-class awards: Birkett (Austin),
Chiles (Austin), Chapman (Austin), Yates
(Austin), Edgar (Alvis-Riley) and Potter
(Allard). Second-class awards: Harter
(M.G. Midget), Hughes (Austin-Ford),
Biggs (H.R.G.), Wood-Dow (H.R.G.) and
Wick (Allard).
Motor Sport, January 1949, Page 2

 

This event was a road-rally-type trial, and may have visited Dunstable?

"We have recently come across a photo showing Colin Chapman's

first car, the Lotus Mk 1, which was a converted Austin 7. The

photo, which is clearly labelled "first time out', Dunstable" shows

the car parked on a slope with a hollow in the background which

clearly has snow lying in it. We think it is probably from early

1949."

The timeline fits, including the snow.

Does anybody know anything different?

 

RGDS RLT