43 replies to this topic

[john aston]

Having owned a Caterham Seven for ten years I am probably soon going to replace it- with another one of course.It's a once in a lifetime thing for me but this time I shall buy a brand new one.And inevitably the choice of colour came up.My current car is a sort of dark metallic maroon and whilst ok not my first (nor second )choice. The colour scheme I covet is that used by 67 (?) BRM - I remember a wonderful picture of , I think, Mike Spence at the'Ring airborne .The car was that wonderful very deep bottle green , almost black in dull light, with contrasting fluorescent orange day glo nose band.I think it'd look wonderful on Chapman's finest.

I do not have any pictures that really do it justice- can anyone help- and ideally email me a picture or post one here?

[2F-001]

Hello John, (I was just reading your email!)

there is an almost-front-on pic of Mike Spence in the H-16 (with all four off the ground at the 'Ring) occupying a whole double page spread of Automobile Year for '67-'68. It is somewhat larger than the scanner I have here at home at 19 x 12+ inches, but I think I've seen it published elsewhere (it's credited to Werner Eisele, if that helps anyone else track it down), but I'll see if I can find a way of scanning it.

(I have a reference to the green being, ICI P030-3503, but I don't know how much use those old codes are. Funnily enough, that would be very near the top of my list of colour schemes if I got to replace or rebuild my Seven!)

[Mal9444]

The expert on BRM colours and where to get them is Barry Boor. Apparently the nearest you'll get is Maserati Rifle grey (that's the name - but the colour is indeed what you have described as deep bottle green). There's a Maserati shop near me (it's in Lyndhurst, just west of Southampton on the A337) and while I have not been in an asked for a tin of it, they do occasionally have a very dark green Maser in the window and this I assume to be the colour Barry speaks of.

[David Birchall]

I'd do it Ecurie Ecosse Blue.....

[john aston]

Thanks for replies- I have checked the Maserati colour and it's close but more grey than green.If anyone has any more info will be in their debt - he grovelled.

[kayemod]

Originally posted by john aston
Thanks for replies- I have checked the Maserati colour and it's close but more grey than green.If anyone has any more info will be in their debt - he grovelled.

This may not be too relevant, but I was taken around the BRM place in Bourne once or twice as a child, probably some time in the late 50s or early 60s, and the colour then was an Aston Martin road car colour, I saw F1 cars being sprayed, and read the name on the can. Things might have changed of course by 1967. Colours are all about light, distance and perception though, so something from Aston Martin could be just what you need, if it looks right to you, then by golly, it is right.

[Mal9444]

Originally posted by kayemod


This may not be too relevant, but I was taken around the BRM place in Bourne once or twice as a child, probably some time in the late 50s or early 60s, and the colour then was an Aston Martin road car colour, I saw F1 cars being sprayed, and read the name on the can. Things might have changed of course by 1967. Colours are all about light, distance and perception though, so something from Aston Martin could be just what you need, if it looks right to you, then by golly, it is right.

Now this intrigues me. When you say 'Aston Martin road car colour' do you mean a fairly pale green - the colour of the DBR1, for example - or the darker green of the DB3S of around 1953 vintage? I ask because, although I never saw a BRMV16 in the flesh in period, only in b/w photos (Moss and Fangio at Dundrod in '53, for example) for years I carried the belief that the cars were a fairly pale green. Where can that memory(?), however mistaken, have come from?

[kayemod]

I wish I could be more helpful Malcolm, but you have to realise that I would have been in short trousers at the time, and probably more impressed by the calendars on the workshop walls than the cars, also the name Aston Martin on the paint cans meant rather more to me in those days than BRM. I do have a vague recollection that the shade was fairly dark though, and looking above my desk to a recently acquired Geoffrey Goddard print of Fangio driving a V16 BRM at Silverstone in 53, the shade on that car looks very dark indeed, much darker than I remember seeing back at Bourne, though that would have been several years later.

[stuartbrs]

I remember an article I read in a Mini magazine in the early 90`s. They had built this Mini twin cam rocket thing and used the BRM colour on it. They went as far as actually using a light spectrometer off one of the F1 cars to get the colour perfect ( well... perfect in so far as original BRM green with oxidisation ). I remember thinking at the time how grey it looked.. and how fabulous it looked... But magazine colours are hopelessly inaccurate... and all colour is simply dependant on light...

The best bet would be to get a heap of colour swatches, choose the one you percieve as being right, and get the paint matched off that...

[mfd]

Originally posted by Mal9444
The expert on BRM colours and where to get them is Barry Boor. Apparently the nearest you'll get is Maserati Rifle grey

This has all been discussed at length before & more than once! Here's one..
http://forums.atlasf...?threadid=83983

The colour Barry Boor found was cross referenced to a spray out card I supplied him using the actual paint from an H16 from 1967.
Two points here, the colour is an accurate match to a time warp car that remained in a museum for many years immediately after its last competitive appearance and secondly the real colour is very different to how it appears in photos or even peoples' memories of it...

If you PM me, I'll look out another sample, but Barry has already done the hard work by trawling through loads of manufacturers paint samples until he successfully matched my sample of the paint. Ergo Maserati Rifle Grey ....

[ian senior]

Silly as it might seem, but did the Rover 200 BRM from the late 90s use the correct BRM green? If so, you've got your answer - just find a Rover BRM owner and ask for the paint code.

[kayemod]

Originally posted by ian senior
Silly as it might seem, but did the Rover 200 BRM from the late 90s use the correct BRM green? If so, you've got your answer - just find a Rover BRM owner and ask for the paint code.

These sad little cars aren't an uncommon sight, but all the examples I've seen are painted in a rather nondescript non-metallic green, some kind of British Racing Green, and nothing like any real BRM I've ever seen. I'd advise John Aston to just pick any nice metallic grey/green that takes his fancy. Then we can all start arguing about the orange for the nose-band.

[ian senior]

Originally posted by kayemod


These sad little cars aren't an uncommon sight, but all the examples I've seen are painted in a rather nondescript non-metallic green, some kind of British Racing Green, and nothing like any real BRM I've ever seen. I'd advise John Aston to just pick any nice metallic grey/green that takes his fancy. Then we can all start arguing about the orange for the nose-band.

Sad little cars....cheeky sod, but then my tastes do verge on the bizarre at times. I am reliably informed that the colour of these cars was Rover's Brooklands Green.

[D-Type]

As for the orange - I am sure I have seen something written by a certain Mr Nye saying that the original orange paint contained nasties that are now banned so again it's a case of finding something that looks 'about right'

[2F-001]

Surely, lighter colours confer a more favourable power-to-weight ratio...(?)

[mfd]

Originally posted by kayemod
Then we can all start arguing about the orange for the nose-band.

Todays equivalent of that orange is known by the European paint code RAL 2005

As for the orange - I am sure I have seen something written by a certain Mr Nye saying that the original orange paint contained nasties that are now banned so again it's a case of finding something that looks 'about right'

That may well have been to do with the lead content in days of old...today's paint still contain nasties by other definitions !

[Mal9444]

Originally posted by kayemod


... I'd advise John Aston to just pick any nice metallic grey/green that takes his fancy. Then we can all start arguing about the orange for the nose-band.

... kayemod, I'm not sure you're really taking this seriously enough.

[Mal9444]

Originally posted by 2F-001
Surely, lighter colours confer a more favourable power-to-weight ratio...(?)

So a non-metallic dark green should more accurately be described as light dark green, then?

[john aston]

I knew you guys were erudite but you have excelled yourself with this one.Me- I'm still agonising.Whilst I am trying to accept that Rifle Grey is the colour it's a bit of a struggle as all the web images show colour as grey without a hint of green and the worst colour for a Seven (but not a 911) is grey.Maybe I should make it an Eagle homage instead...?

[mfd]

Originally posted by john aston
Maybe I should make it an Eagle homage instead...?

OK then we can all start discussing the correct blue...

[kayemod]

Originally posted by mfd

OK then we can all start discussing the correct blue...

Even the choosing the correct white could start an endless discussion on TNF.....

[mfd]

Originally posted by kayemod


Even the choosing the correct white could start an endless discussion on TNF.....

AGREED

[Macca]

That orange was fluorescent and radioactive, from DCN's previous post - the same sort of stuff that gave WW2 painters of compass markings cancer of the tongue from licking their paintbrushes............

For my 1/43 & 1/64 BRMs, I use Humbrol 91 'dark black green', which is said to be RAL 7009:

http://www.themodelc..._conversion.asp

and then give it a coat of gloss clear varnish.


Paul M

[stuartbrs]

Of course, no white is pure white....

[mfd]

Originally posted by stuartbrs
Of course, no white is pure white....

...and even now I'm told by a significant restorer of old cars, that there is no way Rifle grey, is green, BRM or any other !
Macca ! You're not bothering with the metallic finish then ?

[Barry Boor]

Mike, no matter what your restorer says, Maserati Rifle Grey IS green.

[Macca]

In small scales, the lack of metallic doesn't seem so important. The Brumm model of the P578 has metallic paint, and it just seems too deep and glossy.

And Humbroll 91 looks very like that Maserati colour.................



Paul M

[john aston]

I now have the Caterham which triggered this thread.I ened up by specifying Lugano Teal Metallic (Range Rover colour ) with Ford Colorado Red noseband.And guess what - thye look EXACTLY like the colours in the Automobile Year picture of Mike Spence leaping the BRM H16 at the 'Ring in 67. Having seen more than a few BRMs in the flesh I do of course also know that the colour in the picture is not the same as it appears in real life but am still very pleased.

[mikeC]

May we have a picci of the end result?

[Terry Walker]

Ummm- pic of proud owner standing car car please?

EDIT - or sitting in...

[Ted Walker]

Any good paint supplier should be able to mix the paint to the ICI code P030-3503. I went throught the exercise several years ago to get the correct "Brabham Green"

[mfd]

Originally posted by Ted Walker
Any good paint supplier should be able to mix the paint to the ICI code P030-3503. I went throught the exercise several years ago to get the correct "Brabham Green"

Today, I think you'll find that difficult - if not impossible Ted

[Barry Boor]

Mike is quite correct, Ted.

No-one, anywhere, (including ICI themselves) has anything that links those old p-type paint codes to modern acrylics.

I tried for years to connect modern colour codes to those old ICI ones, with an absolute and total lack of success.

[Doug Nye]

BRM 'Dark Lust. Green' paint formulation:

1-litre mix:

ICI 425 935 - 29.7
ICI 425 948 - 206.5
ICI 425 954 - 360.9
ICI 420 907 - 401.4
ICI 420 902RT - 500.1
ICI 420 983 - 515.1
ICI 425 927 - 520.1
DUPONT AM15 - 721.3
ICI 192 500 - 1261.4

(Dupont AM5 fine aluminium being preferred to the ICI colour)

Any help?

DCN

[mfd]

Originally posted by Barry Boor
I tried for years to connect modern colour codes to those old ICI ones, with an absolute and total lack of success.

Indeed Barry, as we've already discussed ICI colour tinters no longer exist - particularly not the old cellulose ones, so a formulation from those constituent parts won't work. From one paint company to the next the tinters also varied slightly.

[Nick Wa]

You lot are begin to make me think I'm colour blind! Actualy I understand we all see colours slightly differently.

I believe early V16s were a light green, probably paint left over from R1A! However by July '53 they had become "black". So much so that I only realised it was green when I saw one close up at the first racing car show. This "black" was considerably darker than the green of the '53 Le Mans winning C type which was demonstrated at the same Snetterton meeting. The only clue that this "black" contained any green came when Wharton appeared for his 2nd race. Fuel had been split over the tail and the filler cap was surrounded by a white splog with eau de nile runs.

To continue the "black" theme was Rob Walker's Connaught black? My memory has it darker than his 300SL which was blue. Or was Norfolk light inferior to Cheshire sunshine?

[RTH]

Originally posted by ian senior


Sad little cars....cheeky sod, but then my tastes do verge on the bizarre at times. I am reliably informed that the colour of these cars was Rover's Brooklands Green.

certainly not a metallic, they sold 795 of these in Britain and 1700 were exported

[dretceterini]

Originally posted by Macca
In small scales, the lack of metallic doesn't seem so important. The Brumm model of the P578 has metallic paint, and it just seems too deep and glossy.

And Humbroll 91 looks very like that Maserati colour.................



Paul M

The humbrol looks closer to me....but it could just be my monitor....

[john aston]

Here is a link to the pictures; driver not included.(just imagine a slightly edgier George Clooney- this is especially noticeable in poor light after removing prescription eyewear and standing 75yards away...)

www.flickr.com/photos/bramhall/

[2F-001]

Very nice John! Colour scheme looks wonderful. I look forward to seeing it somewhere sometime.
(Would feel affronted if I copied it? Although I am tempted to stick with something that matches an off-the-shelf gel coat cover for the glass bits... purely on the grounds of economy!)

Other than the paint, are you pleased with it?

[Macca]

Originally posted by dretceterini



The humbrol looks closer to me....but it could just be my monitor....

That photo does look a little more blue than my actual model.....


Paul M

[kayemod]

Originally posted by 2F-001
Very nice John! Colour scheme looks wonderful. I look forward to seeing it somewhere sometime.
(Would feel affronted if I copied it? Although I am tempted to stick with something that matches an off-the-shelf gel coat cover for the glass bits... purely on the grounds of economy!)

Other than the paint, are you pleased with it?

You aren't going to have much luck trying to match any BRM green with a stock GRP pigment. BRM were an occasional customer at Specialised Mouldings, some years we did their bodies, and others years someone else did, but everything was sent out from SM in grey, as far as I can remember even the mostly white Yardley cars, and then spray painted at Bourne. There's been endless TNF discussion on the correct green, but on more than one occasion when I was there, I saw drums of an Aston Martin road car colour that they were using. Metallic or metalflake fibreglass is just about possible, but having tried to achieve that more than once, I wouldn't recommend it. We spent a fortune at Lotus trying to perfect the process for moulding Elan +2 130 roofs in silver, but in the end gave up and painted them instead. My own preference is for Sevens in Lotus green and yellow, though the BRM colours also look great of course. If you're set on a DIY job though, how about a homage to Bruce and Denny? The same pigment that orange McLarens were all moulded in is still available from the original manufacturer, so no problem obtaining a perfect match. Also, the guy who used to signwrite all orange McLarens before they left Colnbrook is probably still around, so I'm sure he could paint your name on the side of your orange Seven in the same dark blue paint that he used to write Bruce and Denny's names on M6s, 7s, M8s etc. If you asked him nicely, I'm sure he'd do some of his perfect freehand Goodyear, Reynolds Aluminum and Gulf logos for you as well.

[2F-001]

To be fair, I think John had settled for colours that in his mind's eye corresponded to images he's seen and liked - rather than an historically-perfect match or re-creation.

That's interesting though, Kayemod - I think many of us must have the same feelings about these things. When I first built my Seven, one scheme I considered was close as I could get to the McLaren orange with deep blue detailing. All-over dark green was a cheaper 'standard' option at the time (with off-the-shelf gel-coloured 'glassware' too). Also that was a favourite of my Father who loaned me some cash to get the car finished.

You don't see so many newer all-green Sevens these days - so I may stick with that; brigher yellows, oranges and custom paint jobs are more popular now -- the ownership profile has changed alot since I got mine. No longer is it the odd-ball preserve of the impecunious enthusiast; many owners are well-heeled and have them as third cars or recreational toys. In the past some of those owners might have thought them cheap (even though they weren't) and not for them, but they've had tremendous press over recent times and hitherto reserved-types seem more comfortable with fairly outrageous machines (the more highly-specced Caterhams, I mean) - and colours. Aslo people will pay a big premium for minimalism and throw huge sums at Sevens. A surprising number have little or no knowledge of - or interst in - the ancient background and heritage of their Sevens.

Not sure I'd want my name scripted on the side though - but a lovely detail.

Not sure a Chaparral colour scheme would work too well.

Sorry - that sounded like a grumpy-old-man winge; that wasn't quite what I meant!

[john aston]

The car is significantly faster than any BRM if my Stack Dash is to be believed - I decelerated from 537mph to 9 mph on Northallerton high st in less than 3yards on sunday.Am now ringing Ronzo to see if he wants to reverse engineer the braking system, bolt it on Lewis's car for the Brazilian GP and leave the dastardly Alonso to rely on the standard Mclaren carbon rubbish.

As Tony says the colours are a general homage rather than a replica- but they look better than the vulgar Kawasaki Green and other horrors which younger Seveners prefer.In 20 years time they'll be wanting replicas of Super Aguris - doubt if they will want Renault or Honda colours somehow.

Excuse lapses into current affairs please.