56 replies to this topic

[Celloman]

Mario Almondo in TS 18.4. (from Auto Sprint) :

-The sliding of the front end is not as big disadvantage for Felipe Massa as it is for Kimi. Felipe indeed does well with a slightly loose front end. In Bahrain the oversteering of his car stopped after the first pit stop when we changed the front wing. After that the car behaved exactly as Felipe wanted.

-Kimi wants a wing which pushes the front end down. Felipe isn't interested in that. We have to get a car to Kimi which behaves more accurately. Kimi wants a front-end biased car, which reacts more sensitively to his steering inputs.


I have read many times on these forums that a car cannot be built around a certain driver, but after the relatively poor performing of Raikkonen and Alonso and reading these comments I would not be so sure about that.

The easiest way of affecting the car's balance is naturally to adjust the setup, but that's what the drivers have been doing since winter and still the pace situation between Kimi and Massa seems similar as in winter, Kimi almost on par in races but Massa quite clearly faster in qualifying. When also Alonso has suffered same unexpected problems except from a great drive at Sepang I wonder if the equipment should be changed instead of the drivers' styles. Tires are of course one thing which cannot be changed, but I think there are a lot other factors than the tires themselves that e.g. causes the balance problem of Kimi's car.

I don't want to take away honour from Massa and Hamilton; they are obviously driving a superb season, especially the latter one. But that doesn't take away the fact that Alonso and Raikkonen was regarded as the two fastest drivers before the season, and both have proved their superb speed enough times in the past, at least in my eyes. It has also been stated over and over again that Alonso will adapt to the new car without problems, and to some extent that's certainly true, but a driver still has a certain own way of driving the car, so if we say that Hamiltons style works best on the new McLaren, I don't think Alonso would just go there and start to drive like him.

We have to also remember year 2000, when DC had a much better season start than Mika and beat Mika fair and square at Silverstone for example. In the mid season it was reported that the team had started investigating in the problems of Mika's car, and shortly afterwards we suddenly saw a superiour Mika bouncing back to the fight for championship. Though it's not clear to me what was done to Mika's car, I'm sure it wasn't just basic setup testing.


If we look at the driving styles we can see clearly a difference between the team mates.
Hamilton is a very smooth driver and usually drives with an oversteerish car, so we see many small counter steers during a lap with the car almost going sideways, but his calm and precise whel handling makes it possible. Alonso's style is a lot more exact and he seem to dislike oversteer, otherwise he would have tried Hamilton's setup and way of driving in Bahrain. Instead FA drove very neutral and calculated. I didn't see a single counter steer or tire lock from him, but this can also be seen as a weakness in the current McLaren.

The KR vs FM situation looks a lot like Almondo described. Massa seems to drive in a calculated and simple way with throttle-at-once and steer-at-once style, a bit similar to Alonso, so the main thing he would want is a stable car, whereas Kimi is making a lot of small inputs and wants to feel the car to be on the limit all the time. So a bit absurdly I think Kimi would have advantaged more from driving the current McLaren and Alonso from driving the Ferrari.

[Spunout]

Originally posted by Celloman
I have read many times on these forums that a car cannot be built around a certain driver,

True, but the car can be changed...

but after the relatively poor performing of Raikkonen and Alonso and reading these comments I would not be so sure about that.

IMO the main issue is expectations were too high for these two. Most people predicted Massa to be really strong this year, and Hamilton certainly is special talent.

Poor performance? They are leading the WDC.

No question the new tyres are drastically different. I would compare this to 97/98, even. The grooves and narrower cars meant "perfect" handling was no longer there..."technical" drivers like Hill, Wurz and Zanardi suffered. However...Schumacher, Häkkinen & co adapted and ended up winning the titles. Now the agressive style that was required till 2006 no longer works - smooth turn in is the way to go, and clearly the cars have very different (or should I say less?) feel.

We´ll see. I expect Alonso and Räikkönen to come on top in the end. Hamilton will have bad races where being inexperienced is huge disadvantage. Kimi has big challenge with Massa, who has improved year by year...now it´s goodbye to 1B status and he is grabbing the opportunity with both hands. But the "iceman" is known of his skill to adapt (let´s not forget the McLarens from 2002-2006 went from understeer to oversteer and back during his time there!).

When it comes to changes at Ferrari, ultimately it will be about whether "Kimi´s way" is faster way to go. Will trying to add more "bite" to the front end work with 2007 tyres? Or will Kimi have to stick with what they´ve got?

After all the 17 races are over, we have the answers.

For now, let´s enjoy watching no less than 4 drivers fighting for the wins and WDC points The situation with overtaking sucks, but it looks like this will be competitive season between top teams.

Just my two cents

[xman]

Each driver has a unique style of driving and these top drivers have perfected their drive over a long time. We can say that top drivers should be able to adapt to changes as well, which I think they have done - not fully though (looking at Kimi, Fernando), but the competition is so tough at the moment that you need to extract 110% from the car - to do that you need to have a perfect setup and be totally confident about the car behavior.

This didn't come as a surprise to me that it will take some time from both drivers to fully adjust to the car and perfect their set-ups, but it shouldn't take too long anymore or otherwise it will continue being a problem in the upcoming races as well. I think Kimi has done a very good job collecting a fair amount of points, but I also think Massa was very unlucky in the first race when he had to start 10 places behind.

Biggest surprise to me has been Lewis Hamilton for sure, that he has found a good setup and has shown very good pace. Somehow I have the feeling though that as soon as Fernando and Kimi has found the perfect setup, Felipe and Lewis will have hard time matching their teammates.

However this looks to be a very exciting season, we have 4 drivers able to fight for the win, and one driver (Heidfeld) able to make podiums from time to time as well.

[Dmitriy_Guller]

When people talk about building a car for the driver, I'm sure the smart ones don't mean that it's a conscious effort. The thing is that cars have to be developed by drivers, and car design would tend to follow the feedback of the driver who's listened to the most. Car setup can be adjusted somewhat, but every car is naturally balanced one way or another, in ways that set-up cannot fix without compromising something else.

[giacomo]

It's one of the main tasks of a top F1 driver to work out his perfect setup, together with his crew.

If he fails to find it - his fault. Period.

No chance to blame the car when the other team driver found his setup.

[mstar]

i think we have to rememebr that FA i feel still to be 100% comfortable in the car (knowing his race engineer etc) but then so is hamilton. I would be surprised if hamilton blew alonso away in spain if he DID then we can say lewis can be champion this season.

[john_smith]

assuming this is true, this says to me that reaffirms to me that kimi can achieve strong results even when he is not 100% happy with the car.

the fact that he is equal in points with massa when the car is more suited to his teammate speaks volumes.

[giacomo]

I'm a bit surprised about Raikkonen's complaints about his car.

Because according to the Atlas BB experts he's the one driver with 100% commitment every single lap, literally driving the wheels off every car.

[Mauseri]

Originally posted by giacomo
It's one of the main tasks of a top F1 driver to work out his perfect setup, together with his crew.

If he fails to find it - his fault. Period.

No chance to blame the car when the other team driver found his setup.

Not at all.

Your assumption that in a certain car, you can do different setups for different driver preferences without compromising performance, is plain wrong.

Sometimes it's faster to drive a setup you dont like best, because the car's optimum doesnt meet driver's optimum. Speed suffers if you only go to the driver optimum.

Adaptable drivers like Kimi will drive fast almost anything. But still it would be faster if the car was at drivers optimum by nature.

[SphereTL1000S]

To me Kimi is simply overdriving the car everywhere, like Montoya was doing at Williams in his first year there. Too many steering inputs for Kimi, maybe because he doesn't know where the limits are. Massa has a smoother approach, maybe because he know the tyre/car combo better.

The thing is, I don't believe that Kimi will be able to dial out all those steering inputs. I remember him on the McLaren that, when he was fast, he looked fast with lots of steering inputs, countersteering, curb riding, and stuff like that. And when he was smooth it was either because he was cruising or the car was too good/too bad to care about doing anything out of the ordinary.

Massa did drive differently, much more agressive, when he was chasing Hamilton at Malaysia. So far, he was the one who could botch a pass, loose .5 a sec, and try that again in the same lap, almost at will. He was flying, and was overdriving everywhere. So it seems that his smooth fast pace is possible because the car is really fast, but is clear to me that he has something extra to take out of the car that he didn't need to show in Bahrain (he was at the front, could dictate the pace), or couldn't have shown in Aus (backmarkers). Obviously, as Malaysia has shown, when he is forced to extract such couple of tenths more, he may be more prone to errors. He is fine, as long as he is at the front, I think. He seems to have enough race pace to keep anyone behind him, as long as the strategy helps.

[Spunout]

Originally posted by SphereTL1000S
Massa did drive differently, much more agressive, when he was chasing Hamilton at Malaysia. So far, he was the one who could botch a pass, loose .5 a sec, and try that again in the same lap, almost at will. He was flying, and was overdriving everywhere. So it seems that his smooth fast pace is possible because the car is really fast, but is clear to me that he has something extra to take out of the car that he didn't need to show in Bahrain (he was at the front, could dictate the pace), or couldn't have shown in Aus (backmarkers). Obviously, as Malaysia has shown, when he is forced to extract such couple of tenths more, he may be more prone to errors. He is fine, as long as he is at the front, I think. He seems to have enough race pace to keep anyone behind him, as long as the strategy helps.

"At will"? Massa got his opportunities to overtake because Hamilton´s mistakes. Check the replay.

When it comes to Australia, Massa DID have laps in clean air. He had every reason to push, but Kimi was 1-5 secs faster per lap. Yes Massa was heavier, but 1.5 secs? And if Massa had more pace to spare in Bahrain, surely the same must apply to Kimi in Australia?

I would agree Felipe is great when running in front of everyone, but still prone to errors when things get tricky. Yes he has the pace to keep the lead once he gets it...but then again, in clean air he and Kimi have been about as fast in two previous races. If Kimi gets his qualifying together (and we shall see very soon if it was all about engine in Malaysia and traffic in Bahrain), everything could change. I doubt the 2007 season will be all running ahead of everyone for Massa. Extracting maximum points in difficult situations is always important, especially when they are 2 teams and 4 drivers close to each other.

[kar]

I find it strange to read about a Ferrari with a 'loose' front end. Michael was always one to prefer oodles of front end grip to allow for precise handling, and allow the rear end to be danced about.

Indeed it was partly this requirement that saw John Barnard get his marching orders from Ferrari at the end of 96. Maybe they should get Michael to help with the testing, he'll help Kimster get it sorted... :-)

[Mauseri]

What is a loose front end? Soft suspension settings?

And what's Kimi asking? Stiffer suspension and more downforce at front?

Is this the problem why he doesnt bite kerbs like he did at McLaren? Too unprecise front?

[SphereTL1000S]

Originally posted by Spunout


"At will"? Massa got his opportunities to overtake because Hamilton´s mistakes. Check the replay.

When it comes to Australia, Massa DID have laps in clean air. He had every reason to push, but Kimi was 1-5 secs faster per lap. Yes Massa was heavier, but 1.5 secs? And if Massa had more pace to spare in Bahrain, surely the same must apply to Kimi in Australia?

I would agree Felipe is great when running in front of everyone, but still prone to errors when things get tricky. Yes he has the pace to keep the lead once he gets it...but then again, in clean air he and Kimi have been about as fast in two previous races. If Kimi gets his qualifying together (and we shall see very soon if it was all about engine in Malaysia and traffic in Bahrain), everything could change. I doubt the 2007 season will be all running ahead of everyone for Massa. Extracting maximum points in difficult situations is always important, especially when they are 2 teams and 4 drivers close to each other.

Hamilton did made a couple of mistakes that led to Massa's overtaking attempts, but Massa also had twice made mistakes (one after the main straigh, the other at the same turn he ended up running off, but he was back right behind Hamilton, pushing him into other mistakes. Massa was literally flying behind Hamilton, and if you can't see that, you need glasses.

You loose all credibility when you bring back Australia. You are entitled to you opinion, of course.

[SphereTL1000S]

I think this slight loose front end for Massa is BS. Let's wait and see what Massa says about that. I don't remember him saying he had a different set up than Schumacher either.

If the idea of a tighter front end comes from Kimi, not from his engineer, I wonder if that has any chance of working out right.

[race]

Originally posted by giacomo
It's one of the main tasks of a top F1 driver to work out his perfect setup, together with his crew.

If he fails to find it - his fault. Period.

No chance to blame the car when the other team driver found his setup.

Alonso last fall:
"Its about driving style. It is what it is and I can't change it according to car. That's why the new Mclaren has to be built around my driving style, and not so that I would just jump in and adapt to whatever it is"

[giacomo]

Originally posted by race
Alonso last fall:
"Its about driving style. It is what it is and I can't change it according to car. That's why the new Mclaren has to be built around my driving style, and not so that I would just jump in and adapt to whatever it is"

In the incorrect translation of TS...


That's what Alonso said in an Renault F1 interview.

Q:One of the things that emerges from those debriefings is that you have a unique style – an aggressive approach with the car’s steering. Is that deliberate?

Alonso: It is not something I realize I am doing – but it is what the telemetry shows. I think it may be a way of adapting to the car, because when I was at Minardi and when I tested for Jaguar, I didn’t drive like this. The technique allows me to control the understeer easily – I turn in later than many drivers, and do it aggressively. Once I have done that, I can just make small adjustments to the steering from the apex and find the right balance to be quick on the exit. Everybody has their style, and that is mine at the moment. But it is always changing – the car is never the same from one lap to the next, the reactions and conditions evolve all the time. Ultimately, I don’t think the style is the important thing ; it is about how well you can adapt to the way the car changes all the way through the race.

[race]

Originally posted by giacomo
In the incorrect translation of TS...


That's what Alonso said in an Renault F1 interview.

Q:One of the things that emerges from those debriefings is that you have a unique style – an aggressive approach with the car’s steering. Is that deliberate?

Alonso: It is not something I realize I am doing – but it is what the telemetry shows. I think it may be a way of adapting to the car, because when I was at Minardi and when I tested for Jaguar, I didn’t drive like this. The technique allows me to control the understeer easily – I turn in later than many drivers, and do it aggressively. Once I have done that, I can just make small adjustments to the steering from the apex and find the right balance to be quick on the exit. Everybody has their style, and that is mine at the moment. But it is always changing – the car is never the same from one lap to the next, the reactions and conditions evolve all the time. Ultimately, I don’t think the style is the important thing ; it is about how well you can adapt to the way the car changes all the way through the race.

I've seen that one, but I've also seen other interviews where he says almost the opposite. So TS translated that to what was in my post? I find it hard to believe. I think we are talking of different interviews. What did he actually say in the interview that was incorrectly translated?

I also found this in an old thread:

"You have a special driving style. Does it works in the McLaren?
The engineers will adapt the car to my driving style. This is one of my biggest challenges. I hear that Kimi Räikkonen has a completely different driving style. For this reason I must get into the car as soon as possible, in order that we can react. The onboard cameras show that I drive in a different way. But this is my signature. I have never driven in a different way."

Are you saying he never said any of this, it's all fabricated? I don't get this idea that the drivers wouldn't have their own signature styles. Button's said that he has a completely different style than JPM and KR. Kimi's explained his style in detail. I think at least half the grid has talked about their driving styles in interviews. But they are probably all incorrect translations then. I for one don't think Hamilton would be this good compared to Alonso if they were driving last year's Renaults.

[Spunout]

Originally posted by race

Kimi's explained his style in detail.

Really? I´d like to see the interview where he does that

The closest thing to "in detail" I have read is from 2001.

[skonks]

Originally posted by Spunout


When it comes to Australia, Massa DID have laps in clean air. He had every reason to push, but Kimi was 1-5 secs faster per lap. Yes Massa was heavier, but 1.5 secs? And if Massa had more pace to spare in Bahrain, surely the same must apply to Kimi in Australia?

sure Massa had laps in clean air... when he exited the pits with fuel for ~30 laps.
Hell, Kimi was owned in Bahrain quali with 0.45 / lap having fuel for 2 more laps than Massa.

[giacomo]

Originally posted by race
I've seen that one, but I've also seen other interviews where he says almost the opposite. So TS translated that to what was in my post? I find it hard to believe. I think we are talking of different interviews. What did he actually say in the interview that was incorrectly translated?

The statement you posted was done in English in an interview with German "Auto Motor und Sport", where it was printed in German. TS read it there (in German), and published it in Finnish.

Your quote is the English translation of the Finnish version.

So your quote went the way English > German > Finnish > English, and it displays only faint resemblence to the printed German version.

Believe it or not.


And of course my quote was from another interview, that was done in English and published in English.

[Spunout]

Originally posted by skonks


sure Massa had laps in clean air... when he exited the pits with fuel for ~30 laps.
Hell, Kimi was owned in Bahrain quali with 0.45 / lap having fuel for 2 more laps than Massa.

I thought we were talking about laps in clean air?;)

Overall I find this "which one is faster ATM" debate rather tiring. Engine change for Massa in Australia, engine problem for Kimi in Malaysia, traffic for Kimi in Bahrain quali...different strategies...being blocked by slower cars...almost impossible to make comparisons, really.

We should wait for few more races IMO.

[robnyc]

From Telecinco back in October last year.

En McLaren aseguran que hace tiempo que están trabajando en adaptar su coche a su forma de conducir. ¿Qué puede explicar de todo eso?

Supongo que estarán trabajando en el coche del año que viene desde hace tiempo, y supongo que estarán tratando de construirlo pensando en que yo lo tendré que conducir. Todos los equipos lo hacen pensando en el estilo de pilotaje que tengan sus pilotos, es normal.

Translation.

Q. In Mclaren they assure that they've been working in on adapting the new car to your style of driving. What can you explain about this?

A. I assume that they would be working with the car that they've been working with in the last seasons, and I assume that they will be trying to construct/design it thinking that I will be driving it. Every team does this, taking into consideration the style of driving of their drivers. Is normal.

[abc]

Originally posted by skonks


sure Massa had laps in clean air... when he exited the pits with fuel for ~30 laps.
Hell, Kimi was owned in Bahrain quali with 0.45 / lap having fuel for 2 more laps than Massa.

My only post about Australia because its history and off topic.

Felipe had clean air from lap 16 to lap 28, pited in lap 29. Kimi stint with the fastest lap lasted 23 laps.

Honestly I dont see any reason why Felipes fastest lap should be 1,8 sec. slower.

[Mauseri]

Originally posted by abc
Honestly I dont see any reason why Felipes fastest lap should be 1,8 sec. slower.

Kimi's fast lap was one off. Most of the time He was over 1.0 sec slower than his best was...

I think Kiimi was faster in Melb but maybe 3-4 tenths or so on sheer strategy corrected pace.

[Spunout]

Gotta add something...speaking of McLaren, let´s review 2005.

In the first races they had big diffficulties getting front tyres warmed up. Both KR & JPM disliked the handling. Too understeery. Here the biggest issue wasn´t Kimi or Juan hating understeer, but the car being too slow (during the first half of the race). Only when F1 caravan arrived to Europe, Mac brainiacs figured it all out. But then JPM complained...they went for two different designs, and the rest we know.

2002 - understeer, understeer. 2003 - oversteer & unstability under braking. 2004 - understeer...and later oversteer.

The point is, this shows how hard it is to design cars that are fast from first to last lap. You have to figure out aero, tyre usage, etc. This has to be priority number 1. The handling? In the world of rapid development and changing regs, designing cars for specific drivers is almost impossible. Perhaps you can keep certain concept (assuming there are no major changes in regs/tyres/etc), but that´s about it.

[Spunout]

Originally posted by micra_k10

Kimi's fast lap was one off. Most of the time He was over 1.0 sec slower than his best was...

I think Kiimi was faster in Melb but maybe 3-4 tenths or so on sheer strategy corrected pace.

Generally speaking, if top level F1 driver does one fast lap in race conditions, he can do more. Even if that was the absolute best Kimi could do, there is no way he tried but failed to get within 1 second of it with his other laps.

Massa however had every reason to push as hard as he could.

That´s about it. Now...we can continue Kimi vs Massa debate, or move on.

[Celloman]

Originally posted by micra_k10
What is a loose front end? Soft suspension settings?

And what's Kimi asking? Stiffer suspension and more downforce at front?

Is this the problem why he doesnt bite kerbs like he did at McLaren? Too unprecise front?

Good question.

"-Felipe Massalle ei auton etuosan liukastelu ole yhtä iso haitta kuin Kimille. Hänelle on vain eduksi, kun se vähän heittelehtii."

This is as it was written in TS. I translated it from that, so probably the meaning has changed a bit through the way. But what TS is talking about is sliding and "skidding,tossing,lurching,swerving" front end, which I just translated to sliding and loose because it made more sense. But from the later contexts I would understand it as mainly an understeer problem.

[Mauseri]

Originally posted by Celloman
Good question.

"-Felipe Massalle ei auton etuosan liukastelu ole yhtä iso haitta kuin Kimille. Hänelle on vain eduksi, kun se vähän heittelehtii."

This is as it was written in TS. I translated it from that, so probably the meaning has changed a bit through the way. But what TS is talking about is sliding and "skidding,tossing,lurching,swerving" front end, which I just translated to sliding and loose because it made more sense. But from the later contexts I would understand it as mainly an understeer problem.

I think it's something more than just understeer/oversteer problem. F1 car is a bit more complex than just a horizontal plate which either understeers or oversteers.

I think the front end might be too loose and nervous for Kimi, the way Schumi and Massa like it. Maybe the front rolls too much. It could cause oversteer in bad places and understeer as well. The car doesnt follow him like it should.

[HSJ]

Originally posted by Spunout


The point is, this shows how hard it is to design cars that are fast from first to last lap. You have to figure out aero, tyre usage, etc. This has to be priority number 1. The handling? In the world of rapid development and changing regs, designing cars for specific drivers is almost impossible. Perhaps you can keep certain concept (assuming there are no major changes in regs/tyres/etc), but that´s about it.

I think that's right, and thus I think Kimi simply hasn't found "his" setup at Ferrari yet. I'm sure he'll get it sooner or later. Probably sooner. Just more grip at the front, a predictable and stable front end, that should do it.

I'm less sure about Alonso finding a lot more pace. That's because his style of driving (some understeer preference) is inherently slower than the one used by e.g. Kimi and Hamilton (some oversteer preference). Assuming you can call Kimi to have a specific style of driving at all... Unless McLaren decide to build a car like Renault used to (when Michelin was still around; they've since changed their concept/preferences to suit Bstones better, and will go even further down that line as time passes), then I don't see Alonso's style being faster than Hamilton's at all, more like the opposite. Now, Alonso, with his greater experience will probably find more precise setups for his style and specific tracks than Hamilton, which will make him faster in that way. But Hamilton's superior basic technique will counter that. In time Hamilton will master setups as well (that will take some years though), and at that point he will likely outpace Alonso more often than not.

All IMHO.

[former champ]

Originally posted by Spunout
When it comes to Australia, Massa DID have laps in clean air. He had every reason to push, but Kimi was 1-5 secs faster per lap. Yes Massa was heavier, but 1.5 secs? And if Massa had more pace to spare in Bahrain, surely the same must apply to Kimi in Australia?

apart from the fact that a one stopper in melbourne kills any pace you might have especially when startng from the back, tell me how many laps did felipe have in clear air, full laps, in melbourne?

[Chubby_Deuce]

Funny how things are different depending on how well liked the driver is.

http://forums.autosp...&threadid=94134

[former champ]

Originally posted by Spunout
[B]I would agree Felipe is great when running in front of everyone, but still prone to errors when things get tricky. ]

didn't raikkonen make a simple mistake in melbourne when under no pressure? Let's not brand massa mistake prone, he was once pretty wild yes but not anymore.

I read something interesting, including the end of last year, Massa has been on pole for 4 out of the last 5 races. The only place he has missed is Australia through no fault of his own. Go even further back to turkey, its 5 poles from 8 races, 3 of which he has converted to lights to flag victories.

Ominous? The signs are there.

[former champ]

Originally posted by Spunout


I thought we were talking about laps in clean air?;)

Overall I find this "which one is faster ATM" debate rather tiring. Engine change for Massa in Australia, engine problem for Kimi in Malaysia, traffic for Kimi in Bahrain quali...different strategies...being blocked by slower cars...almost impossible to make comparisons, really.

We should wait for few more races IMO.

I agree we should wait a few more races, alot could happen and alot could change but, come on, if it weren't for Felipe's gearbox packing up in melbourne, Raikkonen may not even have a win or pole yet. Kimi's been right there but Felipe has the pace advantage, hadn't he screwed up Malaysia it would be crystal clear because he had heaps of pace that day.

[Oho]

Originally posted by micra_k10
What is a loose front end? Soft suspension settings?

And what's Kimi asking? Stiffer suspension and more downforce at front?

Is this the problem why he doesnt bite kerbs like he did at McLaren? Too unprecise front?

No harder suspension means less grip and probably slower but more precise response with less roll and weight transfer, softening the suspension gives extra grip but in general hurts handling via increased roll and I would assume increased suspension oscillations. I understood from the TS piece that Räikkönen wants more aggressive front, a front that bites harder. But what do I know.

[CatharticF1]

Originally posted by former champ


apart from the fact that a one stopper in melbourne kills any pace you might have especially when startng from the back, tell me how many laps did felipe have in clear air, full laps, in melbourne?

Actually he had plenty - when he was catching Fisi towards the end of the race he still got nowhere near Kimi's times. (Compare that period even to Kimi's reduced pace at the front of the field with some reduction in engine use.)

And while we don't know what restrictions there were for both, with the information we do have there's a sizeable unexplained performance deficit. Kimi again looked better in Malaysia, but Felipe certainly delivered in Bahrain and full credit to him.

[Julli]

Hi,

I believe that for FA the situation is not that bad. He has been faster than the rookie with 2/3 cases. Even the WDC can have bad weekends. Maybe the only concern is that IIRC Bahrain is the first track which he knows well. Australia and Malesia were new tracks to him (IIRC), so probably lacking experience how to setup a car to those tracks. Also during winter testings and practices everywhere but Bahrain FA has been the quicker of the two. Though Hamilton is proving out to be a tougher nut to crack than initially thought. also he is taking his first steps with the big boys that we must remember that there is room for improvements there also.

As for KR i do see a pattern. He has been almost every session slower when neither he or Felipe had problems. The races KR does well, but the qualifying decides so much (due to less grip in 2007 spec tires) , that it is a must that he get's it sorted out. Then later on I'll predict it'll become FA/KR fight with LH/FM mixing in not far behind.

Julli

[Spunout]

Originally posted by former champ


I agree we should wait a few more races, alot could happen and alot could change but, come on, if it weren't for Felipe's gearbox packing up in melbourne, Raikkonen may not even have a win or pole yet. Kimi's been right there but Felipe has the pace advantage, hadn't he screwed up Malaysia it would be crystal clear because he had heaps of pace that day.

Oh, so now we are speculating Felipe might have won in Australia?

Ok, without engine problem Kimi would have easily outpaced Felipe in Malaysia, instead of merely matching his lap times. And of course, without being held up in Bahrain quali...he would have won that one, too.

See?

[jimpo]

Originally posted by giacomo
It's one of the main tasks of a top F1 driver to work out his perfect setup, together with his crew.

If he fails to find it - his fault. Period.

No chance to blame the car when the other team driver found his setup.

Wah wah waa. Are you saying that once someone is a "top driver" there can't be cars that suit his driving style better or worse? That's silly. It is perfectly possible for Ferrari to develop a car that suits Massa's driving style perfectly and is completely the opposite of what kimi wants, and no matter how much the drivers adjust, for this to have an effect of say 0.3s per lap.

Sure the driver needs to adjust but to say that the car has absolutely zero effect on the relative results of teammates is just plain silly.

[Oho]

Originally posted by jimpo


Wah wah waa. Are you saying that once someone is a "top driver" there can't be cars that suit his driving style better or worse? That's silly.

Indeed as it would imply design of the car has essentially no influence on its inherent handling characteristics, or that no such thing exists as basic handling characteristics....

[robnyc]

All cars are designed over time to fit a driver style. Why is this a mystery or a topic for discussion ?

[Limits]

Something a driver might refer to as "character" can quickly become a "problem" if someone else is faster.

Would Kimi and Alonso complain about the cars even if they were comfortably beating their team mates?

[robnyc]

Originally posted by Limits
Something a driver might refer to as "character" can quickly become a "problem" if someone else is faster.

Would Kimi and Alonso complain about the cars even if they were comfortably beating their team mates?

very good question. I was thinking about this the other day. The way I see it is that a Formula One driver very rarely accepts that they are slower then their teammate even though results show the opposite.

[Limits]

Montoya claimed that McLarens front end did not suit him, got a new one and was still beaten by Kimi. Left. Maybe Kimi do need a special front and he had it at McLaren. Maybe he just needs a couple of tenths and don't know really where they went and does a Montoya.

Time might tell.

[Spunout]

Originally posted by robnyc


very good question. I was thinking about this the other day. The way I see it is that a Formula One driver very rarely accepts that they are slower then their teammate even though results show the opposite.

That is true. If it turns out Massa/Hamilton are faster than Räikkönen/Alonso, I doubt the latter two will admit it. Neither of them is known of making excuses, but they are F1 drivers nevertheless. Every (top) F1 driver believes he is the best, will be the best, or could be the best with right car. Any of these three options can be truth or false, but you can bet your a** they are going to pick one.

We will see.

[UreaBorealis]

Originally posted by Limits
Something a driver might refer to as "character" can quickly become a "problem" if someone else is faster.

Would Kimi and Alonso complain about the cars even if they were comfortably beating their team mates?

Kimi DID complain about the car even during Australian GP weekend. Circumstances and pace difference (to other teams) just made it a non-issue. But you do have a point there.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally posted by john_smith
the fact that he is equal in points with massa when the car is more suited to his teammate speaks volumes.

That simply shows that Massa started from the back of the grid in one race and ran off the road in another does it not?

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally posted by robnyc
All cars are designed over time to fit a driver style. Why is this a mystery or a topic for discussion ?

Provided Massa and Hamilton do the job it's perfectly reasonable they get 100 % support and the secondary driver can live with Massa or Hamilton's configuration!

[SphereTL1000S]

Originally posted by Spunout


That is true. If it turns out Massa/Hamilton are faster than Räikkönen/Alonso, I doubt the latter two will admit it. Neither of them is known of making excuses, but they are F1 drivers nevertheless. Every (top) F1 driver believes he is the best, will be the best, or could be the best with right car. Any of these three options can be truth or false, but you can bet your a** they are going to pick one.

We will see.

[former champ]

Originally posted by Spunout


Oh, so now we are speculating Felipe might have won in Australia?

Ok, without engine problem Kimi would have easily outpaced Felipe in Malaysia, instead of merely matching his lap times. And of course, without being held up in Bahrain quali...he would have won that one, too.

See?

WTF?

Without his gearbox failure in qualifying, had Massa qualified on the front row why wouldn't he have had a chance of winning the race? Obviously adopting a different strategy, tell me why not?

BTW had Massa executed the pass on Hamilton correctly in malaysia, I really doubt Kimi would have got anywhere near Felipe's pace, engine problem or not.

and unless you really want to be branded a fanboy, don't even mention the thought that Kimi being held up in qualifying in bahrain was reason for him being slower. Surely your not that desperate (I know other Kimi fanboys are....)