16 replies to this topic

[glorius&victorius]

Hi,
Senna prior to debuting with Toleman, had done (if I am correct) some tests with McLaren, Williams and Brabham? I am sure everyone was impressed by him.

Yet, how come, he signed with Toleman? Can anyone say whether he ran out of choice (which I find hard to believe) or that it was a calculated decision from Senna's part, and if so, what would have been the reasoning behind this decision.

Thanks!;)

[F1Fanatic.co.uk]

Essentially, Piquet didn't want him in Brabham, McLaren and Williams wanted him either to test or do lower formulae in 1984. Senna wanted to race, and Toleman offered him an immediate race deal.

[911]

Also, if I'm not mistaken, he wanted to go to an environment where he could learn without too much pressure.

Frank's test was a kind gesture because he said he would give him one, but it wasn't to evaluate him as a future driver (although Senna did go out and put in some demon lap times that day!).

[mikedeering]

Back then F1 team managers were somewhat more conservative than nowadays where opportunities are available to go straight into top teams. As already stated, Piquet wasn't keen on Senna and worked behind the scenes with sponsors Parmalat to ensure the team did not have two Brazilians. Ron Dennis was not keen on putting a rookie straight in the car and the contract involved a year of funded F2 in return for McLaren having an option on his services after that. Senna was not keen on tying his future to one team so refused - ironically of course he did commit to Toleman and then broke the contract when Lotus came along!

[McGuire]

The story goes that Frank Williams sandbagged Senna by testing him in a heavy car... the idea being that he could then judge how fast Senna was, but not anyone else looking in. Hold down the demand for him, control negotiations.

I think Williams has said more than once that not quite grasping Senna's talent from the beginning was one of his more memorable missteps.

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by mikedeering
Back then F1 team managers were somewhat more conservative than nowadays where opportunities are available to go straight into top teams. As already stated, Piquet wasn't keen on Senna and worked behind the scenes with sponsors Parmalat to ensure the team did not have two Brazilians. Ron Dennis was not keen on putting a rookie straight in the car and the contract involved a year of funded F2 in return for McLaren having an option on his services after that. Senna was not keen on tying his future to one team so refused - ironically of course he did commit to Toleman and then broke the contract when Lotus came along!

The interesting thing there is Ron was clearly thinking of Ayrton as either an alternative to Prost or a replacement for Lauda, but the timescales don't quite match up! If he wanted him instead of Prost he would've put him straight into the car for '84; if he wanted him as a replacement for Lauda then he would've had to park him for more than just that year...

Senna sitting out '84 in F2 does raise the interesting prospect of what happens in 1985 - with no particular need to get rid of either Prost or Lauda what would Ronzo do with Ayrton that year?;)

[MattFoster]

I would suspect that McLaren would still be a bit wary hiring a rookie after De Cesaris in 81.

Toleman in 84 would have looked like a good prospect back then to Senna as they were certainly very much on the improve

[KWSN - DSM]

Originally posted by MattFoster
I would suspect that McLaren would still be a bit wary hiring a rookie after De Cesaris in 81.

Toleman in 84 would have looked like a good prospect back then to Senna as they were certainly very much on the improve

Cesaris was well known to McLaren. He was their driver in the F2 Project four team, which is who McLaren is a combination of. Cesaris may have had an unfulfilled racing career, and since he did there obviously was something missing, but he was a lot better than what many seem to remember him as, and there is a reason apart for family ties to Marlboro, which saw him contest more than 200 Grand Epreuves. On driving talent I would place him at the Tambay, Alboreto, Patrese level.

Toleman stole a march on every one, and there really are no excuse for any team not knowing that Senna was a huge and special talent before making it to F1. The only championship he had contested and not won was the karting World Championship.

He more than dominated F=Ford, F2000 and F3, he was simply on another level than every other driver in those classes.

I always find the "insular not knowing F1 teams" a very strange fact, how can teams with hundreds of employees not know about an upcoming driver from the junior series? It is changing, but only within the last couple of seasons, and even the fact that Kubica is a F1 sort happend by default. Had Weldon accepted the ride, he would be a F1 driver today and Kubica would be no-where.

[MattFoster]

I agree with you that De Cesaris on skill was on par with the likes of Alboreto, Tambay and Patrese. I also knew that Andrea drove for Ron Dennis at Project 4 Racing, what I was pointing out that maybe McLaren wasnt willing to take a risk on a young driver until they knew he was ready

[312B]

Might there have been an factor regarding turbos?

If we take Brabham out of the situation because of Piquet then both McLaren and Williams were in the process of going from DFVs to turbo, as far as I remember Senna tested in DFV cars for both teams rather than their turbo cars. Possibly Ron and Frank felt the jump from F3 to F1 turbos was too much of a risk, there's a big difference between potential and actual delivery which you'd expect Ron and Frank to be keenly aware of.

Thinking of other potential larger teams I seem to remember Lotus being off limits due to pressure from John Player to keep a British driver and Mansell pulling a couple of performances out of the bag when his seat was under threat.

Hard to see where else he would have gone at the time if you assume he would have gone to a British team, I imagine Toleman would have been seen as an equal or possibly a better prospect than Tyrrell/Arrows otherwise you'd have been looking at RAM/Spirit

[KWSN - DSM]

Originally posted by MattFoster
I agree with you that De Cesaris on skill was on par with the likes of Alboreto, Tambay and Patrese. I also knew that Andrea drove for Ron Dennis at Project 4 Racing, what I was pointing out that maybe McLaren wasnt willing to take a risk on a young driver until they knew he was ready

Yes you may be right. See how they for some reason did not just give the second seat to Hamilton right away, I actually think that they were trying to get him to test this season, and only because the Hamilton camp put their foot down did Lewis become a F1 racer.

Which brings me back to the insular world that F1 sometimes seem to be. EVERYONE on this planet knew that Lewis Hamilton at worst would be a middle of the grid quality F1 driver AT WORST, it makes no sense that that were even entertaining the idea of not racing him.

Looking back in times there have been very very good drivers, who for some reason could not get a break into F1, while others obviously less talented drivers did get seats.

Tom Kristensen - may not have been a future WDC, but he would obviously have been at worst a Coulthard, Ralf Schumacher, Mark Webber quality river.

Sebastian Bourdais - All he has done for the past 5 seasons, is to win the Championship he was in, in 4 of them, he shamed the Toro Rosso drivers the first time he was in a STR car.

Jorg Mueller - Again may not have been a future WDC, but he did win the F3000 championship, and have been a good enough driver in anything he drove since.

And many many more.

ALL teams with out any exception were so stupid that they did not sign Senna up as soon as he was signable.

[canon1753]

When did Senna sign with Toleman? Could Ron have been thinking of Senna already in 1984 to team with Lauda if John Watson asked too much money? Remember Prost wasn't sacked until after the season and (maybe) no one knew that Prost was available until then. Could Senna have been penciled in to drive with McLaren in 1984?

Just a thought, though it was not usual for a top shelf team to take someone directly from F3. I think the lower tier of teams was seen also as a kind of finishing school for F1 at that time. Now GP2 is doing that these days...

[Updraught]

My two cents (or pence!) is that Senna signed with Toleman as they were his best option, and that he had to pay. I believe that Ecclestone did recognize Senna's ability, but Brabham had signed Senna only in the event that Piquet left. Parmalat had the other seat reserved for an Italian.

In the last 30 years, the only top team I can think of who signed a rank newcomer with no history and on ability alone was Ferrari with G. Villeneuve in 1977.

And the smaller teams all want cash from a driver. Despite whatever glittering records a driver may have in lower formula, almost everyone has to "buy" their way into F1 at the start.

Notable exceptions have been Michael Andretti, Jacques Villeneuve, Damon Hill - but their currency was their name. Maybe too Ken Tyrell signed Brundle in 1984 because he wanted a British driver and thought Brundle good. There are not many exceptions, though, for entry into F1.

Schumacher had Mercedes, Prost had Marlboro, even drivers of this caliber did not make it into F1 on driving ability alone. Some others have been fortunate, as Mansell was with Lotus when JPS demanded a British driver, the good French drivers of the late 70's, early 80's with Marlboro deciding France was an important market - these are all commercial considerations that placed some drivers in F1 over others, despite driving ability.

So, once a driver has met the commercial considerations for entry into F1, the driver can sign with a top team once their ability has been proven!

[Candy-Tyrrell]

the 84 Toleman was a very handy piece of kit especially when they got Michelin tyres.

[KWSN - DSM]

Originally posted by Candy-Tyrrell
the 84 Toleman was a very handy piece of kit especially when they got Michelin tyres.

The Toleman team had some very bright people, who have been part of the trend setters in F1 since they arrived.

I am not saying that Toleman was a bad, but they were not a top team, and the top teams of the day could have had Senna had they understood how good he was. The failure of any top team to sign him, is what I continue to refer to as "insular'.

I knew about Ayrton Senna da Silva in the late 1970ies, how could him winning 5 championships in 3 seaons of junior formula racing have passed all of them by?

[Updraught]

It seems to me that the top F1 teams have been similar to big corporations - let someone else take the chance on something or someone new, and then we will buy it if it looks good. Can't really blame them, though, the teams set up to win have too much to lose if the drivers do not work out.

However, we must give credit to McLaren for backing Lewis Hamilton for the past 10 years. Is this the new way? Will we now see "talent spotters" from F1 teams at Cadet Karting events? Formula One is monkey see, monkey do when something is successful, so we may soon see a rash of 10 year olds signed by major F1 teams!

[KWSN - DSM]

Vettel is still a teenager, and he seem destined to be a BMW F1 driver.

Nico Rosberg was 16 maybe 17 when he had his forst F1 test, with Williams who also brought him into F1, and he is still only 22 I think.

Scott Speed must have been pretty young when Red Bull started backing him, he is in his second F1 season and only 24.

So yes it is happening.