26 replies to this topic

[duby]

hellow

when was the first time , F-1 cars start to use the "new" gear box system , the semi-auto or full auto and not the regular manuel ?


thanks

duby

[HDonaldCapps]

Well, there were the pre-selector gearboxes on the British cars in late-40s & early-50s that participated in formula one events.... and the work on the current slushboxes really began in earnest at some point in the early or mid-80s, the true technogeeks should be able to say of it were Ferrari or whomever that make it the style.

[David M. Kane]

John Barnard, Ferrari, I think the year Mansell drove for them.

[Paul Rochdale]

Eff-Wun, Pee-Too............chunter, chunter.

[bigears]

Thought this Motoring News article might interest some of you.



It was published in 1988.

[canon1753]

I seem to remember reading a 1978 or 1979 Motor Trend that mentioned in passing that Ferrari introduced their "new car" probably 312T3 or 4 with an experiemental gearbox or selector with a paddleshift, (like on the 639 and 640s that came in 88 and 89). The idea has been there, but it wasn't until microchip electronics made it feasible and reliable.

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by duby
hellow

when was the first time , F-1 cars start to use the "new" gear box system , the semi-auto or full auto and not the regular manuel ?


thanks

duby

Hmmm. ENV and Wilson pre-selectors. A long time ago.

I suspect the answer that the Russian quiz wants is historically wrong, though ;) (No offence meant - it only looked like a Russian quiz post; Duby is a genuine but infrequent poster);)

[D-Type]

Not F1, but

1. Why did Borg Warner provide the trophy for the Indianapolis winner when the cars had a manual gearchange?

2. The Chapparall sports cars had an auto transmission. Did their Indianapolis cars?

[macoran]

Originally posted by D-Type
Not F1, but

1. Why did Borg Warner provide the trophy for the Indianapolis winner when the cars had a manual gearchange?

2. The Chapparall sports cars had an auto transmission. Did their Indianapolis cars?

You are going with the proviso that BW only manufactured automatic boxes ?

From Wikipedia.........among others

Borg-Warner T-5 transmission
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The TREMEC T-5 is a 5-speed manual transmission for longitudinal engine automobiles. It includes one overdrive gear, a light-weight aluminum housing, and is adaptable for four wheel drive use. It is manufactured by Transmission Technologies Corporation. The T-5 was designed by Borg-Warner and was sold as the Borg-Warner T-5.


[edit] Applications
1983-1995 V8 Ford Mustang (World-Class T-5 1985-1995)
1983-1986, 1994-present V6 Ford Mustang
1983-1993 Inline-4 Ford Mustang
1983-1991 Ford Thunderbird
1986-2004 Ford Falcon
Ford Sierra Cosworth
Chevrolet Blazer
1982-1992 Chevrolet Camaro (World-Class T-5 with RPO code MK6)
1993-2002 Chevrolet Camaro (V6 models)
Chevrolet S-10
1982-1986 Jeep CJ-7 (optional)
(Datsun) Nissan 280ZX (World-class T-5 in the 1983 280ZX Turbo 5-speed)
1984-1986 Nissan 300ZX Turbo
1989-1994 VN - VR Holden Commodore
1982-1992 Pontiac Firebird (World-Class T-5 with RPO code MK6)
1993-2002 Pontiac Firebird (V6 models)
Ssangyong Musso
Ssangyong Korando
TVR Cerbera
TVR Tuscan

[Ray Bell]

And that list is nothing like the one you'd have for the T10 4-speed...

Borg-Warner make differentials in huge numbers, their manual transmissions were standard fare in a lot of American cars back through the forties and fifties as well. And, of course, they made literally millions of overdrive units that went on the back of gearboxes ex-factory in:

Nash
Austin
Ford
Chevrolet
Chrysler
Plymouth
Dodge
De Soto
Studebaker
Wolseley
Morris

And I'm sure there were others...

[D-Type]

You live and learn - I have always associated Borg-Warner with automatic transmissions

[f1steveuk]

I have to admit, I was thinking Wilson pre-selector, or if it didn't count as "F1", the Lotus/Cosworth "queer-box" on the 12 or 16. Always wonder how easy, or ackward the rachet gate was coming down the gears ??

[ace woodington]

The Chaparral 2K indy car had a Wise man transmission and it was manual.

[Jerry Entin]

Ace: It is Weismann, named after the inventor of the gearbox. Pete Weismann. A very talented gearbox inventor.
www.weismann.net/indy.html

[f1steveuk]

and a wise man!!

[kevthedrummer]

Did the Guerin, designed by Enguerrand de Coucy, not have a semi-automatic 'box?

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Jerry Entin
Ace: It is Weismann, named after the inventor of the gearbox. Pete Weismann. A very talented gearbox inventor.
www.weismann.net/indy.html

I once heard someone talking about Weismann's limited slip differential... "You need to be a real Einstein to figure it out..."

[Jerry Entin]

Ray: Pete Weismann was a real genuis. And a great guy. Bruce McLaren had the utmost faith in his product as did Dan Gurney. When Tony Brise was running in the first Long Beach Formula 5000 race in 1975 for Sid Taylor he was using a Weismann Locker.

[wildman]

Obviously the terms "semi-auto" and "full auto" are open to interpretation. Designating a particular gearchanging mechanism as the "first" of this type depends on one's own definition. But certainly one significant step in that direction was the electronic clutch on the Lotus 76 of 1974, which was actuated by a button on top of the shifter.

[Peter Morley]

There was also the Cotal gearbox used in some French cars (similar time to pre-selectors), that I think was electromagnetically operated.
Not sure if any raced but possibly someone like Delahaye might have used them?

I'm sure the original query was in relation to the claim that the late 80s Ferrari was the 'first'.
Of course when you look below the surface there is usually a lesser known predecessor, but Ferrari very rarely introduced anything new themselves (or rather nothing that was picked up by other teams - Comprex superchargers and double floors might well have been their own!).

[Peter Morley]

Originally posted by wildman
Obviously the terms "semi-auto" and "full auto" are open to interpretation. Designating a particular gearchanging mechanism as the "first" of this type depends on one's own definition. But certainly one significant step in that direction was the electronic clutch on the Lotus 76 of 1974, which was actuated by a button on top of the shifter.

That's similar to the VW Beetle (& possibly Porsche) 'automatic' - apparently when you pressed the gear lever it operated the clutch.

[gmw]

The Weismann Locker has always been considered one of the best limited slip differentials. Pete Weismann used the same principal in developing his "instant shift" gear box, which is one of several designs now being used in F1.

The Borg Warner Trophy was fist awarded in 1936, long before Borg Warner got into automatic transmissions. At that time Borg Warner was a major supplier to the US auto industry, I think that they were the largest clutch manufacturer in the US at the time.

[macoran]

Originally posted by Peter Morley


That's similar to the VW Beetle (& possibly Porsche) 'automatic' - apparently when you pressed the gear lever it operated the clutch.

I believe the NSU RO80 had the one of the first versions of this gearbox.
I remember that one couldn't rest one's hand on the shift lever, because the clutch
operating sensors were in the handle of the shift lever.

[Paul Ranson]

The question is 'automatic' and 'F1', which should constrain things somewhat....

IIUC current F1 gearboxes are not 'automatic' in that they only initiate a shift when commanded. A 'preselector' would also not qualify. Nor would the Lotus 'queerbox' which I think was essentially a 'sequential' but, just as with a motorcycle, manually operated.

I see from Google that DAF went racing with a CVT in F3 as long ago as 1964, a CVT must qualify as 'automatic'. But not F1.

I think the Ferrari that Mansell and Prost raced was not 'automatic', it had a hydraulic replacement for the mechanical linkage actuated by paddles. But not automatic.

What was the question again?

Paul

[Bruno]

Paul, not Mansell and Prost.
Mansell and Berger in 1989.

[FLB]

Here is a thread where the Cotal gearbox was discussed on TNF.

[Paul Ranson]

Mansell and Berger in 1989.

I should have looked it up...

I remember reading that John Barnard went the hydraulic route for packaging reasons.

Paul