16 replies to this topic

[bespoke]

New to the forum and I have a few questions about the impact of a race car's value when there have been changes made over the years. I recognize this is a question with potentially hundreds of different answers but I would still appreciate some help.

The baseline car (assumed to be the most valuable) would be a totally original version with significant race history in period, with everything in original & restored/perfect working condition. Essentially as if it was retored after its last race in 1966 and put in storage until today. I know that this type of car rarely/never exists given that they were driven hard, crashed, & rebodied, but I wanted to set those conditions as a baseline.

So:

How important is the original bodywork? What if it is half original? Totally replaced? How about totally replaced but done by the original builder?

Same questions and scenarios for the chassis, motor, and transaxle?

In particular I am interested in the impact when the original builder (or craftsmen from the original builder's shop) are involved in the current rebuild and/or replacement of parts.

Thanks in advance for the opinions.

[Allen Brown]

You may be misunderstanding what makes a car valuable. A car could be valuable because it allows someone to get an entry at Monaco or Goodwood, or because it's the quickest car in its historic racing class. A historic racer may care more about its condition or whether he can run it with a particular engine. A museum may care more about its cosmetic condition and the drivers who raced it in period. Is it ex-Peterson? Is it ex-Fangio? Is it ex-Senna?

Not so many people buy a car just because it's original.

[bespoke]

If anyone can actually help with this question I would certanly appreciate it. I am NOT looking for any one car's actual value--I am looking for the how the value is potentially changed by the alterations that I outlined. I believe I listed enough disclaimers in my question to avoid getting a response like that last one.

I'm looking for someone that has knowledge of where these cars sell before and after major modifications. Also someone that can opine on the difference between a modification done by some guy in his backyard, a modification done by the original manufacturer using original blueprints & plans, and an untouched original. This is probably a good question for a dealer in vintage race cars or a collector that has owned many vintage race cars.

[Stirling]

Well! You've clearly never read 'How To Win Friends And Influence People', bespoke. Like you, I'm a new member of this august board. One of the things that impressed me about it, leaving aside for one moment the vast technical and historical knowledge of its members, was the gentlemanly manner in which proceedings were conducted. I would never dream of adopting the rude tone of your riposte to what most people would read as a helpful response to your initial enquiry. As one new member to another, don't you think a little respect is called for - after all, you've come here looking for help!

ciao,
Stirling

[Sharman]

You are a new-comer if you react to Allen's undoubtedly well meant and entirely accurate remarks as you have done.

[Doug Nye]

One could - I believe - be quite helpful in offering a detailed response to this question - most find TNF extremely helpful (I certainly did, and do) but perhaps, bespoke, you might be best advised to rewind, and start this thread again...?

DCN

[Mistron]

well, first to atempt to answer the question:

as a former dealer I'd say it's impossible to answer this question, as each buyer has their own opinion on what they value - current presentation or historical correctness.

If a car is restored by the factory some will consider this the best available, though there are often marque specialists held in higher regard (and often the orginal factory no longer exists for classics of course) either way, as long as the outcome is of a good quality buyers will judge each car on its merits. I have to say that (in my opinion) some cars with lovely original bodies get ruined by over 'restoration' and this would reduce it's value to some, yet increase it to others - confusing, isn't it!

I should say I am struggling with the same question at the moment as I am selling a unique car which had its original body removed in period - nothing sinister in that in itself, it's hapened to many cars over the years, and I have a body that has been fitted for 3/4 of the cars life, yet the value will be much increased with a recreation of the original body fitted. I'm working on that at the moment. As the original builder is not known will the fact that I have recreated it lessen the value as compared with a body planned by a specialist? I don't know.

Cars don't start out as classics to be preserved, of course, more to be raced hard and modified to remain competitive - I have spoken to the man wh disposed of my cars original body in period and he is quite open about his reasons - it didn't matter to him at the time, the chassis was competitive, but the body didn't provide enough cooling so he changed it.

I am firmly of the opinion that if a cars history is known and documented, as long as it's restored and out racing, that's the main thing, but an original body is better! No question that the original chassis is key to the cars identity though and more important than the body- and the FIA HC reflects this view.

However (without wishing to divert the thread)-

What has really depressed me whilst selling my car is the number of calls from people who have no interest in a unique and interesting car when they realise that it will not be race winner (998cc A series engine against all the 23s that now have (non original) twin cams)

Where have all the people who are involved for the historic bit rather than the racing bit gone? should we not be looking for diversity on the grid? I am thoroughly depressed that so many people seem only to want a potential race winning 'safe bet' which will no doubt have far more power than the model ever had in period over an interesting car with an unusual story. If you only want to win and not celebrate the diversity we used to have in racing why not race in (modern) FFord?

I am sure the right kind of buyer is out there to restore my faith in enthusiasts, but maybe not - maybe in historic racing it's the winning and not the taking part that counts nowadays. : ............. shame

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[David Birchall]

Bespoke, I think what all the above tells you is that there are different ways of reading everything!

There is no 'Formula' for figuring out the value. It is rather like real-estate: if you want to sell your house and the next door, identical, house sells, then that is your market price, *assuming no mitigating circumstances*. If the next door house has a new roof, new plumbing and wiring then the price goes up--NOT by the amount the repairs cost but proportionate to that amount. If the house needs renovation the price drops considerably-sometimes but not always by the amount required to repair it.

The same is true of historic racing cars; the buyer, the seller and the market decide the price for each individual car.

I doubt this is any help but it is an impossible question to answer.

[bespoke]

Thanks everyone.

[chuckbrandt]

I think a case can be made that over restoring a historical car can hurt it's value. I'm not sure what kind of modifications (and for what purpose) bespoke is asking about. But I have a philosophical question along the same lines.

Let's say we knew where the Ward Cooper was today. (we may know where it is, but we can't prove that at this point)

A '59 Cooper Monaco, raced in '59 and '60 by Jack Brabham with Climax FPF.

Sold to Rodger Ward who had it fitted with a Buick V8 and coil sprung rear suspension in '61, the first of it's kind.

Sold to Ed Hamil, Roy Kumnick and eventually Fred Pippin. Now powered by a Ford V8 and the body work evolved each year to "update it". Still winning major races in '68.

So let's say you find this car today, or 15 years ago. Which version do you restore it to?

Personally, I'd like to see the Rodger Ward version. But what do you guys think? I guess to stick with the original thread, which version would be the most valuable?

Chuck

[Hank the Deuce]

Originally posted by chuckbrandt
I think a case can be made that over restoring a historical car can hurt it's value. I'm not sure what kind of modifications (and for what purpose) bespoke is asking about. But I have a philosophical question along the same lines.

Let's say we knew where the Ward Cooper was today. (we may know where it is, but we can't prove that at this point)

A '59 Cooper Monaco, raced in '59 and '60 by Jack Brabham with Climax FPF.

Sold to Rodger Ward who had it fitted with a Buick V8 and coil sprung rear suspension in '61, the first of it's kind.

Sold to Ed Hamil, Roy Kumnick and eventually Fred Pippin. Now powered by a Ford V8 and the body work evolved each year to "update it". Still winning major races in '68.

So let's say you find this car today, or 15 years ago. Which version do you restore it to?

Personally, I'd like to see the Rodger Ward version. But what do you guys think? I guess to stick with the original thread, which version would be the most valuable?

Chuck

For mine (for the little that's worth)... it depends largely on the target buyer... one man's meat etc.

Brabham afficionados would perhaps say they'd pay good money to have it as raced in '59/'60... or even to buy it in other trims with a view to taking it back to the desired spec...

Pardon me for using an example as pedestrian as an Australian Touring Car, but unfortunately it's all I know...

A while back, there appeared for sale a local Group C Ford, restored immaculately into the livery of an iconic racing driver and period.

Said car had indeed been raced (once) by said icon, as a hastily-arranged replacement for his own mount (which had been comprehensively and famously stuffed into the scenery during qualifying)... at the time, said replacement was roughly re-jigged into an approximation of the trim and semblance of the car which had died in the crash (the paint was still wet as Mark II gridded up), and stumbled around for a couple of hours, before succumbing to maladies relating to the haste in which it was prepped.

As I said, it was an iconic moment in the local lore... but the car never authentically appeared in the lovely condition in which it was most recently offered for sale.

The car had originally been commissioned by a fairly high-profile chap (who ultimately refused to race it), prepared by another fairly high-profile chap, had won one reasonably major race in in the hands of yet another big local name, and crashed heavily on the eve of what could have been one of its finer moments (through no fault of the well-credentialled international name at the wheel when it hit the fence, ironically at the very place that the afore-mentioned icon would come to grief the next year, in the event mentioned above).

IIRC, it was sold for good coin, but to my way of thinking, it was, as it was presented, worth sweet FA (and worth more for mine if it had've been restored to its original trim and livery, or an authentic recreation of its presentation on the day, or even in the livery it later raced in). But I'm in no position to collect such things, and should probably shut my mouth accordingly.

[FLB]

Race cars never stay original. It's part of the very definition. People constantly change parts because they've either found better (lighter, stonger), wear, incidents or downright failure. So, 'originality' has no real meaning as far as race cars are concerned.

That being said, there is such a thing as 'lineage'. Let's say 'X' car was once raced by a very famous driver or introduced a revolutionary concept. If it can be proven that part of 'Y' car was once 'X' car, 'Y' can suddenly become very interesting from a historical point of view. There are of course collectors who do value such a thing as historical interest.

I saw such a car race at a historical event. The driver had owned it for a few decades and still took it out occasionally. He had bought it from a well-known builder. During research, a historian found evidence that the car in question had been built from the remains of a car that had major historical relevance. As a result, the car's value increased massively, because it was now recognized as the descendant of the more famous car. It suddenly had 'lineage'.

[T54]

I wonder how "lineage" applies to the Franco Sbarro's multiple GT40's with each having bits of a famous racing car...

[daytona_ford]

Bespoke....

We have been going thru' this at the shop for years. Allen was right on with his response, especially since it addressed the varied " markets " which set the value.

Modern race cars can generally be grouped as pre-roll bar ( to 1959) ( Vintage) , pre-cage ( to 1972 ) ( Historic), and post 72 Classics. If a car transcends groups, returning it to the earliest group will GENERALLY result in a higher value.

But the SIGNIFICANCE of the car 's life usually will outweigh everything else...therefore returning a Roger Ward car to that state would generally result in the highest value

I'm sure we have all seen cars " restored " in ways that follow neither of the above standards ...like the mentioned 23's... but for the owners of them, performance has more value, because thay are driving at 10/10...and so the car's value may be higher with the twincams.

In all the cars we do, significance and period come first and second,....with performance being "the best we could get, back then ".

Dave

[etceterini.com]

Very interesting question. I'll start with our Bandini/Devin. It was
imported in 1952 and raced at Sebring (Hassen/Clark) with cycle
fenders and a Crosley engine. It continued racing in that configuration until the
1955 Sebring race when a Mercury engine was installed and the fenders
were attached. After the 1955 season it was sold to Clair Reuter who installed a
Crosley engine. It continued racing in that configuration and then in 1958 Reuter replaced
the Bandini body with a Devin Monza body. He then raced it in 1958 and
1959. The car now has that Devin body and Crosley engine. So, according to
the previous posts, it would be worth the most if it were converted back
to the cycle fendered body... We have the original nose, hood, and rear Bandini
body parts but the rest would have to be fabricated. So what should we do??
Should we convert it back to its 1952 form or keep it as it last raced in 1959?
Answer: we are going to restore it as it is now. I love the Devin body and can actually
fit in the car... Now lets rewind to the 1960's when my Father, Jack, owned
a 1954 Ferrari 250 Monza, one of four produced. It was raced by the factory
and then in 1957 given to Scaglietti who fitted it with arguably the first "pontoon fender"
body ever created. Clearly it is worth more as it is now (pontoon fender) than
with its original body, plus there are no known photos of the original body. So,
this question is unanswerable...

Thanks and sorry to keep harping on our Bandini/Devin...

-c
www.etceterini.com

[daytona_ford]

...I would also restore the car as it is now...

Original Devin body applications are both significant historically, AND because of their 'looks ' and " hype' , bring more money whether on original cars or recreations...

the Original Sebring configuration would then be the next best choice....

[Mistron]

I suspect Bespoke is probably weighing up a situation where, for example, you have 3 Lotus elevens: 1 with original body, 1 with a body rebuilt /replaced by , say, Len Pritchard, and 1 with a body by A.N. Other.

If all the cars are in similar condition, and have comparable history, I supose the original bodied car would be easiest to sell, but how much of a difference it would actually make to the value, I couldn't say - depends if the buyer is into the history or equally, worried about about being seen to damage an original body in 'action', whereas a recreated body it doesn't seem so bad somehow!

Certainly if I were buying a car which had a body by someone involved in the original construction would be a bonus if the original had been replaced, but naturally, as cars get older, it's less likely, and as I said before, as long as it looks right, does it really matter?

Anyway, back to the garage to build a body..............


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