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The [hopefully] definitive Spa-Francorchamps circuit thread


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#101 Barry Boor

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Posted 14 November 2010 - 23:58

You're all heart, Chris. :lol:

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#102 Lutz G

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 11:00

At 1.58 - I think he ended up down in the drop to the right on the right hand part of the Masta Ess/kink having lost it on entry to the left hander


Thanks - so perhaps he crashed into the building on the right hand

http://www.youtube.c...GipTO-I#t=1m56s

Dunno if this virtual track is that accurate - I have to ask the rFactor guys ;)

Lutz

Edited by Lutz G, 15 November 2010 - 11:01.


#103 wolf sun

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 11:11

While you're at it, can you ask them to release a Mac-compatible version, too? ;-)

#104 Lutz G

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 11:18

While you're at it, can you ask them to release a Mac-compatible version, too? ;-)


Ok - perhaps there's a sort of PC-Windows-Emu for the Mac?;)

BTW: Here's a reality check of the "Stewart corner":

rFactor2

http://www.youtube.c...GipTO-I#t=1m52s

RL

http://www.youtube.c...sEiTU8Y#t=2m50s

Lutz

Edited by Lutz G, 15 November 2010 - 11:20.


#105 wolf sun

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 11:34

Here's a link to a picture of the accident as it happens.

(Lutz, you're right about the emulations, of course - I'd still love to see it run natively)

#106 David McKinney

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 15:20

While you're at it, can you ask them to release a Mac-compatible version, too? ;-)

It's compatible with my Mac :cool:

#107 wolf sun

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 21:15

Seriously? Is Wine or Cider involved here? Care to pm me about this, David?

#108 Les

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 21:34

Yeah the rFactor Spa looks completely awesome sadly I'm a Mac user too so I second the call for a Mac version. Failing that if anyone knows of any emulators that actually work then let me know please!

#109 David McKinney

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Posted 16 November 2010 - 07:08

I don't know why my Mac display the clip but others don't

I'm on OS X 10.4.11, which is hardly the latest version, running via Safari 4.1.2

Perhaps I downloaded some alternative software I don't remember...

#110 wolf sun

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Posted 16 November 2010 - 10:57

David, the clip will run on any system, it's the rFactor simulation that won't... :wave:

#111 David McKinney

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Posted 16 November 2010 - 12:58

Wot's an rFactor simulation?

#112 LittleChris

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Posted 16 November 2010 - 22:36

You're all heart, Chris. :lol:


Was in a bad mood after recent footy results Barry :lol:




#113 Barry Boor

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Posted 16 November 2010 - 23:02

You too, eh, Chris?

#114 2F-001

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Posted 17 November 2010 - 04:34

Wot's an rFactor simulation?

My understanding is that what we see on YouTube is, in effect, a film of a lap of the circuit conducted on the race simulator 'rFactor' (very sophisticated 'video game' if you like - no offense, just a very simple description!). We can see the recording of the lap on a Mac, but we can't run the game/application that makes interactive use of the simulated circuit.
Techies will steam in here if I'm wrong, no doubt!

#115 Hatzi

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Posted 29 December 2010 - 11:45

Maybe some of you know that there is a realistic Spa67 Version in progress.
here is our version of the "kemelsection" most of it was built after the movie of lucien bianchi Spa62.

the rfactor2 version is realy beautiful, but has some mistakes in the layout... :( but this is work in progress ;) so mabe they fix some sections)


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Edited by Hatzi, 30 December 2010 - 13:31.


#116 simonlewisbooks

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Posted 29 December 2010 - 23:27

During one 24 Hours, 1990 or `91 I think, apparently a protesting local resident set fire to his house knowing the only access for the fire brigade was using the circuit, resulting in a 2-3 hour safety car period. He was obviously hoping to get the race stopped.


Wasn't this due to the house being involved in a compulsory-purchase order ?
Something to do with upgrading grandstands or hospitality and the house being deemed 'in the way' ?
I think it was opposite the F1 pits where a massive grandstand has been built in more recent times.


#117 LittleChris

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Posted 10 August 2011 - 22:48

A few photos I took on a recent visit.

1) Looking back up the hill towards Haut de la Cote.

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2) Malmedy - The high speed curve follows the line of the hedge in the background. The tarmac from the triangular " Give Way " sign to the bottom left of the picture was used as part of the original circuit before Malmedy was eased in the 50's and then re-used from 1970 as the lead into the Malmedy chicane The bit of tarmac behind the rectangular sign is a later addition and was not part of the chicane nor the original Malmedy road junction .

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3) Taken looking backwards just after Malmedy where the road drops away to the left then right onto the main part of the Masta Straight. This can only be accessed these days by traffic going in the opposite direction to that raced. Traffic heading from Malmedy towards Stavelot uses a bypass road above and to the right ( to the left in the photo ) of the original road and a cottage that previously existed at the start of the Masta straight was demolished to make way for the new road.

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4) Start of the Masta Straight with the exit of Malmedy in the background. I reckon the cottage referred to above was on the left roughly where the bridge is. The bank to the left has been built up to support the southerly road to Stavelot whilst to the right, between the tarmac and the trees is the old railway line that ran parallel to the Masta Straight all the way down to Stavelot. This has now been tarmaced over and is used by cyclists and joggers.


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5) This is the exit of a layby used by lorries immediately to the right and midway through the Masta Kink but the tarmac and kerbs in the vinicity make it look like it was originally a chicane of some sort. I seem to remember reading that the bikes used a chicane possibly in 1978. Can anyone shed any light on this ?

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6) Exit of Masta Kink. The drop into which Wee Jackie's BRM descended during the 1966 race is behind the armco to the left. I assume the barn where the nun's were shocked by his state of undress may have been that behind the house. The chicane referred to above is immediately behind the tree behind the barn.

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7) Looking from the entry of Holowell back towards Masta hamlet. Originally this was a narrow tree lined road ( as was much of the circuit ) before the speeding up of the circuit in the 50's. It's starting to revert to its original state

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8) Exit of Holowell in the background and entry of the Stavelot high speed corner in the foreground. I originally took this for the thread comparing old photos with current ones of the same area ( can't remember thread title ) as there's a picture taken from close to where this one was taken which features the results of an accident from the 1972 1000kms involving Regga and a Dulon. Think the 1972 photo may belong to either Carlos or Luc Ghys

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9) Taken from exit of Cottage corner. I'd always thought Cottage was the first left after Stavelot, but this isn't the case according to Taruffi's Technique of Motor Racing where he shows his ideal line through here.

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10)Taken from Quarry ( La Carriere ) looking back at Cottage. Quarry, along with Blanchimont, was one of the corners on the back leg that was greatly eased during the 50's according to Paul Frere's Starting Grid to Chequered Flag.


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11) Looking back form the gates of the new circuit towards Quarry.

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Cheers

Chris

#118 Barry Boor

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 06:27

Lovely stuff, Chris, thank you so much for posting it.

#119 LittleChris

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 20:45

Glad you enjoyed them Barry :wave:

We camped for three nights on a pleasant site through which ran the Eau Rouge river. Rolling out of the tent in the morning one immediately viewed, through typical Haute Fagnes drizzle, the little straight ( see pic 8 above ) between Holowell and Stavelot some 400 yards away. Exiting the site to join the old circuit at the left immediately after Stavelot, it was striking looking towards Cottage and Quarry to realise quite how high the circuit sits on the side of the valley with quite a steep drop to the valley bottom. Driving along the track itself you don't really realise that the drop is there due to the foliage on the right hand side of the road but go off on one of the two left handers after Stavelot and you'd fly for some considerable distance. Not much run off at Cottage but a little more at Quarry due to the road being realigned to ease the corner back in the 50's. Oh and they've resurfaced the whole stretch from Stavelot to Blanchimont since I was last there some 10 years ago when it was chock full of potholes.

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#120 Doug Nye

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 20:49

Posted Image

This Mercedes-Benz W154/39 is pictured during the wet 1939 Belgian GP in which team-mate Dick Seaman dominated before his fatal accident. I have always assumed that this Robert Fellowes shot was taken on the early part of the contemporary Masta Straight, but is this so? Where else on the pre-war tree-lined circuit might this have been taken...?

Photo Strictly Copyright: The GP Library

By the way - as a 'real' Spa fan I think this is a terrific thread with many fascinating contributions.

DCN

Edited by Doug Nye, 11 August 2011 - 20:50.


#121 paulhooft

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 21:21

Doug,
a really great picture..
never saw it before..
Paul


Posted Image

This Mercedes-Benz W154/39 is pictured during the wet 1939 Belgian GP in which team-mate Dick Seaman dominated before his fatal accident. I have always assumed that this Robert Fellowes shot was taken on the early part of the contemporary Masta Straight, but is this so? Where else on the pre-war tree-lined circuit might this have been taken...?

Photo Strictly Copyright: The GP Library

By the way - as a 'real' Spa fan I think this is a terrific thread with many fascinating contributions.

DCN



#122 LittleChris

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 21:52

Doug,

I think if it was start of the Masta, then the railway line ( assuming it existed at that time ) would be evident to the left given it ran parallel pretty much from the start of the straight to the kink on quite a high embankment.

My feeling, given the gently sloping hillside to the left, is that the picture may be just after the exit of the Stavelot hairpin roughly where the, as yet unbuilt, banked curve would one day join the Stavelot - Francorchamps road. There is an uncredited picture on page 182 of Chris Nixon's Seaman biography which looks to me to have been taken at Holowell and if this was also a Fellowes picture, it would place him within a few hundred yards of the area I've postulated.

Incidentally I've also just pulled Nixon's Robert Fellowes Collection book off the shelves and it states that, according to the Chula biography of Seaman, Fellowes had little film on the actual day of the race and only took a few photos around the start area. Given your photo is definitely nowhere near the start area I assume Chula was wrong, unless the picture was taken by Fellowes during practice of course ?

Chris

#123 LittleChris

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 22:07

I've found this photo taken a little way up the road from the exit of the Stavelot banked corner. Look at the distinctive patterning on the house and compare it to that on the house in the GP Library picture. They look the same to me though the wall adjacent to the road in the modern photo is just brickwork but of course any rendering may well have been stripped off over the last 70 years. This assumes of course that this type of rendering was/is not particularly popular in this part of Belgium !!



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Credit : Petteri Kantokari

Edited by LittleChris, 11 August 2011 - 22:08.


#124 Doug Nye

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 22:22

Yes - I'd buy all this, exit of Stavelot looks about right and the general lie of the land is certainly a near match. Chula got several things wrong in his Seaman book, as - away from the main subject - did I...dammit.

DCN


#125 Doug Nye

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 23:08

This neg from Geoff Goddard's famous 1964 Belgian GP last-lap sequence shows Dan Gurney coasting to a halt at Stavelot, his Brabham-Climax out of petrol, before Jimmy Clark joined him there with his Lotus similarly run dry, but only after having crossed the finish line in an unwitting first place... There's Chris's house in the background, and that stretch of roadway. If Geoff had owned the Fellowes neg at that time he would have sussed this out, better than I, I am sure.

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And here (below) from an earlier decade is Louis Rosier, testing (or more probably scrubbing-in) tyres with his Ferrari operating from the same old slip road at Stavelot, with 'that house' again in the background.

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The shot below shows Pedro Rodriguez's BRM P153 in 1970 at the Malmedy chicane, which Spa tifosi utterly despised...

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And finally (below) this is the scene at the entry to the Masta Kink after the 1958 practice session in which Jean Behra's BRM Type 25 dumped its oil onto the rear tyres and he negotiated the Kink spinning like a top - and never hit a thing... The experience detuned the mercurial Frenchman for the rest of that season. The sharp corner of the lean-to stone barn structure on the right is the obstacle against which, eight years later, Jackie Stewart in the BRM P261 did not get off as lightly as Behra had...bending his car's monocoque fuselage like a banana, with himself trapped between its inner skins.

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GPL

All Photos Strictly Copyright: The GP Library

DCN


Edited by Doug Nye, 11 August 2011 - 23:11.


#126 Macca

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Posted 12 August 2011 - 08:22

Here is a photo (copyright unknown) of JYS departing the tarmac at the entry to the kink......the spatial awarenes of top drivers is such that he was looking round to see what he was going to hit.

Paul M

#127 Bjorn Kjer

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Posted 12 August 2011 - 12:27

Thanks for the great pictures Doug !

Post 1 starts with the Start/Finish straight , then followed by all the "names". Am I totally out of it whren I ask what about the paddock ? Does that not belong to a track ?

#128 LittleChris

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Posted 12 August 2011 - 20:07

5) This is the exit of a layby used by lorries immediately to the right and midway through the Masta Kink but the tarmac and kerbs in the vinicity make it look like it was originally a chicane of some sort. I seem to remember reading that the bikes used a chicane possibly in 1978. Can anyone shed any light on this ?

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Have referred to Rob Semmelings fantastic site which makes reference to a chicane that may have been put in place at Masta for the 1976 Belgian Motor Cycle GP but remained unused. The photo above possibly/probably shows the remnants.

http://www.wegcircuits.nl/rrv.html

Page 61 paragraph 3 refers

#129 Raido

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Posted 13 August 2011 - 22:46

Impressive! Shame I use a Mac...

Ok - perhaps there's a sort of PC-Windows-Emu for the Mac?;)


Has been around for a long time.

I've been running (Windows-based) pc racing simulators on my Mac - directly in OS X - for a long time.

In my case, using CrossOver Games. For rFactor etc, works fine.
Driving a much more realistic 'Classic' Spa in rF2 will be a jolly good bonus!


BTW, nice pictures. VERY nice, even!

Edited by Raido, 13 August 2011 - 22:47.


#130 Catalina Park

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Posted 14 August 2011 - 03:47

I've found this photo taken a little way up the road from the exit of the Stavelot banked corner. Look at the distinctive patterning on the house and compare it to that on the house in the GP Library picture. They look the same to me though the wall adjacent to the road in the modern photo is just brickwork but of course any rendering may well have been stripped off over the last 70 years. This assumes of course that this type of rendering was/is not particularly popular in this part of Belgium !!



Posted Image

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Credit : Petteri Kantokari

I have found another house with a similar type of rendering up near La Carriere and another at Masta with that rendering on the front of the house and another at Burnenville, so it seems common...

Take a look at these photos by Petteri Kantokari

http://static.panora...al/28962166.jpg
http://static.panora...al/28960469.jpg
http://static.panora...al/28962160.jpg

And his album at http://www.panoramio...;photo_page=220

Edited by Catalina Park, 14 August 2011 - 03:52.


#131 Catalina Park

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Posted 14 August 2011 - 04:35

Posted Image

This Mercedes-Benz W154/39 is pictured during the wet 1939 Belgian GP in which team-mate Dick Seaman dominated before his fatal accident. I have always assumed that this Robert Fellowes shot was taken on the early part of the contemporary Masta Straight, but is this so? Where else on the pre-war tree-lined circuit might this have been taken...?

Photo Strictly Copyright: The GP Library

By the way - as a 'real' Spa fan I think this is a terrific thread with many fascinating contributions.

DCN


Is this too far fetched?

Posted Image

Opposite the Friterie de Masta.


#132 Lutz G

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Posted 14 August 2011 - 10:52

6) Exit of Masta Kink. The drop into which Wee Jackie's BRM descended during the 1966 race is behind the armco to the left. I assume the barn where the nun's were shocked by his state of undress may have been that behind the house. The chicane referred to above is immediately behind the tree behind the barn.

Posted Image

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Fantastic photos!

The rFactor 2 guys did a great job - here the virtual Masta Kink:

http://www.youtube.c...GipTO-I#t=1m52s

Lutz

#133 Barry Boor

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Posted 14 August 2011 - 12:32

That is quite sensational. Almost impossible to believe it's not real.

#134 Jan Biekens

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Posted 15 August 2011 - 15:59

Spa June 1961 and August 18 2010
Pictures from Jacques Deruddere

http://imageshack.us...9/img2303c.jpg/
http://imageshack.us...dsc00015do.jpg/

Edited by Jan Biekens, 15 August 2011 - 16:01.


#135 Les

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Posted 15 August 2011 - 19:52

Posted Image

This Mercedes-Benz W154/39 is pictured during the wet 1939 Belgian GP in which team-mate Dick Seaman dominated before his fatal accident. I have always assumed that this Robert Fellowes shot was taken on the early part of the contemporary Masta Straight, but is this so? Where else on the pre-war tree-lined circuit might this have been taken...?

Photo Strictly Copyright: The GP Library

By the way - as a 'real' Spa fan I think this is a terrific thread with many fascinating contributions.

DCN


I wondered about where that picture was taken after I seen it in Motorsport once a few years ago. However I recently seen this video of the 1939 race which leads me to believe that the picture was taken as cars exited the old hairpin at Stavelot, the banked 'bypass' corner had not been built at that point. Check the video at 1.45. I believe this was the first year that Eau Rouge was used as well.

I love your pictures in post 125 by the way.

Edited by Les, 15 August 2011 - 19:57.


#136 David McKinney

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Posted 15 August 2011 - 21:11

I believe this was the first year that Eau Rouge was used as well.

No, Eau Rouge was used from 1922
Unless you haven't read the thread, and still think Eau Rouge is the uphill right-hander...


#137 Les

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Posted 15 August 2011 - 21:58

No, Eau Rouge was used from 1922
Unless you haven't read the thread, and still think Eau Rouge is the uphill right-hander...


Well Radillon then. I meant 1939 was the first year that they bypassed the Virage De L'Ancienne Douane. Just the way I phrased it and I thought it was pretty obvious what I meant...

#138 Lutz G

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 11:56

That is quite sensational. Almost impossible to believe it's not real.


BTW: Have a look at this posting  ;)

http://forums.autosp...w...t&p=5230494

Lutz

Edited by Lutz G, 16 August 2011 - 12:03.


#139 LittleChris

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Posted 25 December 2011 - 00:29

You can now wander around Francorchamps via Google Streetview :up: :up:

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#140 wolf sun

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Posted 10 March 2015 - 12:00

I've found an absolute nugget:

 

https://revslib.stan...=1&per_page=100

 

This collection of pictures contains, among others, a photo lap of about three quarters of the circuit, plus quite a few pictures of the old Kemmel section, and some rarely seen angles.

LittleChris, if you haven't seen this already you will be thrilled to bits!



#141 LittleChris

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Posted 10 March 2015 - 21:23


LittleChris, if you haven't seen this already you will be thrilled to bits!

 

Great find Wolf Sun :clap:



#142 LittleChris

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Posted 23 February 2018 - 22:46

.

Sims have moved on a bit

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=8a64YhFSDNE.

 

Love the reflection in the helmet during the in car bit down the Masta.


Edited by LittleChris, 23 February 2018 - 22:51.


#143 Michael Ferner

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Posted 24 February 2018 - 11:49

What an appalling track! Boring flat-out sections throughout, no real skill involved, and no slow corners where one could watch the drivers at work, and read the sponsor decals. I barely looked up from my cell phone... :down:



#144 guiporsche

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Posted 24 February 2018 - 15:15

.
Sims have moved on a bit
 
https://www.youtube....h?v=8a64YhFSDNE.
 
Love the reflection in the helmet during the in car bit down the Masta.

 
With no disrespect for those interested in more modern sims, the best recreation of a historical Spa I have seen is still the 67 Spa released a few years ago for the 1998 Grand Prix Legends game. It might not have reflections or all those nice graphic novelties of more modern sims, but nothing beats it in terms of historical detail and atmosphere, IMO, of course.
 

 


#145 Michael Ferner

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Posted 24 February 2018 - 16:41

"...nothing beats it in terms of historical detail and atmosphere" - stacks of hay on the fields in May? Hmm...

#146 guiporsche

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Posted 24 February 2018 - 17:33

You can see them in footage of the June '67 Belgium GP (& also in 9 Days in Summer). Those were probably the references for the track makers... Knowing the amount of work they put it into it (the same people who spent years recreating the entire Targa Florio), I'm sure they alsohad plently of other sources available.

 

Anyway, I believe the sim is yet to be born where the seasons/meteo conditions will match the presence of haystacks on the tracks' surroundings.



#147 Michael Ferner

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Posted 24 February 2018 - 19:19

Sorry, I was being flippant. I also didn't realize that the race was more often than not held in June! :blush:

#148 2F-001

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Posted 24 February 2018 - 19:23

On the subject of trackside detail and ambience, neither of those sims seem to include the Hollowell Memorial. I can't remember when it first fell into disrepair and disappeared from view, but it was seen intact in the aerial shots in Grand Prix ('66) and I'm fairly sure it was thus until after the old track fell into disuse. Given the level of effort expended on the other scenery, it seems a shame.


Edited by 2F-001, 24 February 2018 - 19:25.


#149 guiporsche

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Posted 24 February 2018 - 21:24

@Michael Ferner 

 

No offence taken. IBut as I participate in the Forum where the Grand Prix Legends community meets (srmz.net), I know that the track makers and modders are quite attuned to historical detail and that plently of research is done. Last year, per instance, a full 1955 GP season recreation (cars & tracks; bar Pedralbes, yet to be finished) was released - that kind of commitment is hard to find in other simracing communities these days. No one cares about things like a 1955 GP season, or Canam in 1966, or the '67 F2 Season - but GPL has all of that.

 

@ 2F-001

 

Thanks for pointing that out. I can only say that unlike the rfactor 2 version, the GPL '67 track is not an 'official, corporate' work. It's the result of a group of small and dedicated modders who work on their free time.

The positive point, of course, is that in case of need there's always the possibility of making a small update/addon to improve the track. I'll raise the question at Srmz.net! 


Edited by guiporsche, 24 February 2018 - 21:24.


#150 guiporsche

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Posted 25 February 2018 - 12:46

With apologies for going further off topic, it turns out the the Hollowell Memorial is indeed represented in the '67Spa GPL track:

 

https://i62.servimg....75/gplc6710.jpg