26 replies to this topic

[D. Heimgartner]

I know there's a thread about whether it would be possible to buy/build a F1 beating machine for under "x" amounts of dollars. But what I'd like to know is given a limited budget (say $125,000), how fast of a go-kart could you build. Imagine using a motorcycle engine (Ducati, Honda) and a carbon fibre chassis and some fat wheels, i.e. a Rotax on steroids.

Disregard driver safety.

Here's a photo of one modified go-kart.

http://nurburgring.d...1013_e&lang=eng

Now imagine this thing with wheels a little larger, and way wider (too handle the power) and, perhaps, a bit of a fancier chassis (to save weight). Maybe throw a limited front wing in their and a small rear wing, too.

Bad ass.

[Greg Locock]

Brakes.

[bigbrickz]

Sabine Schmitz (of Top Gear - Ford Transit on 'ring fame) can be seen driving one of those
here. They pit it against a 500hp Dodge Viper.

[Chubby_Deuce]

Originally posted by D. Heimgartner
I know there's a thread about whether it would be possible to buy/build a F1 beating machine for under "x" amounts of dollars. But what I'd like to know is given a limited budget (say $125,000), how fast of a go-kart could you build. Imagine using a motorcycle engine (Ducati, Honda) and a carbon fibre chassis and some fat wheels, i.e. a Rotax on steroids.

Disregard driver safety.

Here's a photo of one modified go-kart.

http://nurburgring.d...1013_e&lang=eng

Now imagine this thing with wheels a little larger, and way wider (too handle the power) and, perhaps, a bit of a fancier chassis (to save weight). Maybe throw a limited front wing in their and a small rear wing, too.

Bad ass.

The DP1 is going to cost roughly $125,000, and it will hopefully be a pretty quick kart.

[Powersteer]

Off topic but still on th etopic of acceleration and agility, what about this for power cornering?

[LS 1]

Originally posted by bigbrickz
Sabine Schmitz (of Top Gear - Ford Transit on 'ring fame) can be seen driving one of those
here. They pit it against a 500hp Dodge Viper.

That kart was stupid. And I mean in the bad old way and not the new good way. The center of gravity was absurdly high and all that extra power was useless because they were running stock kart tires. And no front brakes.

[imaginesix]

I appreciate the minimalist theme they were pursuing, but yeah, those tires are too much of a limiting factor to allow this formula to work well. Maybe there is an 'intermediate' minimalist tire size (like a sidecar tire) that would be better suited to this endeavour?

[mariner]

Some time ago a magazine ( I think Road and Track) ran a "skid circle grand prix" to see which car was fastest around a fairly tight test circle on flat tarmac , I think it was about 100 ft.

One of the CART teams came and on finding their car wasn't fastest set about improving it ( as racers will). Lots of negative camber was the best adjustment and anything to stop the diff locking causing chronic understeer.

What they were beaten by was the "G Kart" assembled by one Paul Van Frankenburgh who I think had close connectiosn with the original Chaparral 2J sucker car.

The " G kart " was a basic kart with a flat plywood undertray and a sucker fan. Basically all the short track/tight turn benefits of a Kart with relatively unlimited downforce. I suspect that the actual limiting factor would be the small tyre size which would probably be overwhelmed by the loadings after a few circles at full G.

[Bernd]

Originally posted by mariner
I suspect that the actual limiting factor would be the small tyre size which would probably be overwhelmed by the loadings after a few circles at full G.

I suspect the driver passing out would be a limiting factor as well...

[Stian1979]

Is it not some work done on making a high rpm v8 based on hayabusa engine parts?

Something like that with a turbo on a light weigh viecle should kill moust things that is not buildt by a profesjonel racing team.

[zac510]

Originally posted by LS 1


That kart was stupid. And I mean in the bad old way and not the new good way. The center of gravity was absurdly high and all that extra power was useless because they were running stock kart tires. And no front brakes.

And surely there's a low drag way to setup that radiator.

[LS 1]

Getting back to the original question, maybe we have to define what "fast" is? If we limit the performance envelope to a tight 3/8 mile track and double digit speeds, aA stock shifter cart rules just about anything slower than a champ car. It's the ultimate application of Colin Chapman's principals of low weight and balance. So long as the speeds are low, gearing takes care of the power deficit.

Don't believe me? Check out Kart vs. Corvette: http://www.bondurant...ia.php?page=vid

You'll have to make up your own mind about whether the race was contrived.

Anyway, if the track is tight, short, and super smooth so the lack of suspension is less of a factor, then a dominant kart could be built for well under $125,000. I don't think you'd have to go much beyond a 450cc motorcycle engine (I've seen these fit to standard kart frames). Some of the money would go to th chassis and may an aero skin. Much of the money would go into trying to get someone to make the tires you'd need.

[275 GTB-4]

There are a few Hyabusa powered kart devices around...check You Tube...wheelspin seems to be the main problem

[Chubby_Deuce]

Originally posted by Stian1979
Is it not some work done on making a high rpm v8 based on hayabusa engine parts?

Something like that with a turbo on a light weigh viecle should kill moust things that is not buildt by a profesjonel racing team.

It won't be that high revving. The Hayabusa is a large displacement motor, so it doesn't rev like a 600 does.

[ferrarifan2000]

here's a link to the dp1 mentioned above.

http://www.dpcars.net/dp1/

[schead]

How about these http://www.vintageka...ets/Rockets.htm

[Powersteer]

Why not get a single seater race car and just turbo anti-lag WRC it all the way to 500 horsepower. Single seater Aerial Atom with a 500horsepower Hayabusa turbocharged engine and anti-lag system would be a mind blowing experience.

[Stian1979]

Originally posted by Powersteer
Why not get a single seater race car and just turbo anti-lag WRC it all the way to 500 horsepower. Single seater Aerial Atom with a 500horsepower Hayabusa turbocharged engine and anti-lag system would be a mind blowing experience.

http://thekneeslider...busa-v8-engine/ + a two step turbo charging system with anti lag.

and a http://www.westfield...howroomtext.gif

Should be close to some fast race cars.

[Fat Boy]

Originally posted by LS 1
So long as the speeds are low, gearing takes care of the power deficit.

Shall we?


(I'm kidding, of course)

[Fat Boy]

I love that zac510 wants a lower drag setup on the radiator. 160HP and 450# with 7.1" tires on the back and your first complaint is to reduce aero drag. That's a massive ability to ignore the obvious.

These karts aren't meant to be truly fast. A Formula A or ICC would kill any of these around a kart track. They're meant to be completely over-the-top fun, and that's exactly what they are. See them for what they are, which is cool in a Mad Max nuclear mutant ninja sort a way.

If you can't appreciate 6th gear wheelspin at 90 mph, then I really question your ability to understand motorsports.

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P.S. A friend had a 250cc moto engined kart with about 55 HP. It handled poorly, but was unbelieveable fast (you could drive about any kart track with 4th and 5th gears only). Alex Tagliani (Champ Car Driver) has a kart with twin ICC engines on it (~80 HP). I've seen it, and it's so ridiculously fast in a straight line you can't believe it. Doubling down on that is insane.

[zac510]

Sorry but it just stood out like a sore thumb to me!

The stuff about tyres/etc was already said. I just looked to optimise every aspect!

[LS 1]

Originally posted by Fat Boy


See them for what they are, which is cool in a Mad Max nuclear mutant ninja sort a way.

Mad Max? Hmmm . . . . I was thinking more Death Race 2000.


Sigh. Here it is, after the millenium and all of those predictions didn't come true. No cross country death races, no HAL 9000, no post appocalyptic terminator cyborgs. So we have to build mutant karts instead. :

[Rosemayer]

Fat Boy Did exactly what your friend did but I put it on a Birel chassis after going to many cart tracks we were not allowed to race on any of them as the cart was so much faster on the straightaways we were black balled.Great fun though.

[Christiaan]

IMHO, a kart won't work, as someone alluded to, high CG, no braking, high drag coefficient. I think its possible using if you had

close wheeled formula (if you have a Cd of 0.3 instead of 0.7 then you implicitly half the power requred for the same accelarion from the same weight)

small, CF construction, slicks, CVT, TC, supercharged duratec or something etc

But again, fast is a relative term. The slowest LM car is faster than an F1 car, depending on how long the race is. I have seen a Lada that can out accelerate an F1 car up to 130km/h

[Twister]

having raced a 250 superkart with 80 hp I can say that tyres are the limit with a kart!
They would be so bad after 3-4 laps!

[Rosemayer]

Yes Tires are the main limiting factor.

[J. Edlund]

Motorcycle based inline four cylinder engines are not suitable for a go kart project. They are too heavy and too bulky. What would be suitable is a single or two cylinder engine, an inline two is possible but a V engine would be better. Another possebility is to connect two single cylinder engines after each other just like on superkarts. A single cylinder or twin F1 based engine could be used. Naturally aspiranted that means up to 100-200 hp, using turbocharging with a modern anti lag system more power than is ever needed can be generated. This from an engine with a weight around 20-30 kg.

The chassi could be a monocoque in CFRP using alumnium, nomex or CFRP honeycomb using a design similar to a superkart chassi. The engine and tranmission could be solidly mounted to the side of the chassi keeping it as close to the ground as possible. The engine should be placed in a high angle for a low center of gravity. If the engine is placed on the right side, there is probably enough room to place the radiators at left side, keeping the radators avay from the rear of the car where a wing and huge diffuser should be placed.

To find enough traction will be the main issue, so wide sticky tires will be required, and of course, a lot of downforce.