29 replies to this topic

[rkalinak]

Good day:

I would like to thank all of you who have responded to my Indy
Maserati question!!! This forum has some great stuff and great
members with lots of info. !

Next question, 1937, Indy, Rex Mays is shown driving an Alfa, I believe
this to be the 8C-35, Bought by Bill White from the 1936 Alfa Vanderbilt
Team. He also placed 3rd with it at 1937 Vanderbilt.

1938, Mays again with the 8C Alfa.

1939, Brother Mays is Racing an Art Sparks Car, however,
2 Alfa's listed one for Babe Stapp and one for Louis Tomei, what is their ID ?

1940 Alfa's Harry McQuinn, "Hollywood Payday"I believe this is the old 8c-35,
Chet Miller in an Alfa and Al Miller in an Alfa.

1941, Only Harry McQuinn.

1946: Hal Cole Alfa, Don "Mr Mercedes" Lee, Lewis Durant,
is this the Alfa 308 From the Indy Museum, and Jimmy Wilburn
in a Mobiloil Alfa.

1947 3 more Alfa entries.

1948 One Alfa, is this Durants old Alfa 308?

1949 No More Alfa's but those Maserati's keep trying, even to the point of using
Offenhauser Engines.

Can we ID the Alfa's at Indy? Thanks.

Bob Kalinak

[2000 touring sp]

Please remember Alfa Romeo participated in 1952 with Ascari as driver

[rkalinak]

don't you mean the 4.5 Liter Ferrari 375 , that Ascari brought to Indy!

Bob K.

[2000 touring sp]

yes,sorry.Bad memory

[2000 touring sp]

Sorry for my absent mind in the first post.
But this Alfa Romeo
1939
Babe Stapp Alfa Romeo A.R.-Weil/Alfa Romeo
Louis Tomei* Alfa-Romeo

1940
Harry McQuinn A.R.-Weil/Alfa Romeo
Chet MillerAlfa Romeo
Al Miller Alfa Romeo

1946
Hal Cole Alfa Romeo
Lewis Durant Alfa Romeo
Jimmy Wilburn A.R.-Weil/Alfa Romeo

1947
Ken Fowler Alfa Romeo
Walt Brown Alfa Romeo
Cy Marshall A.R.-Weil/Alfa Romeo

1948
R Johnny Mauro Alfa Romeo

Giuseppe Farina made in 1956 a half-hearted attempt at the Indianapolis 500.Car crasched during taining

The A.R Weil Alfa Romeo is probably the same car that participated in all the years. If so it is the car that took third place in the Vanderbilt cup. If that is correct it was Alfa Romeo Tipo C Chassis. It was originally build to use the 8 Cylinders as well as the new 12 Cylinder engines. I suppose the car that ran in the Indy was the 12 C version on 3000 ccm and 300 hp.
I don't have update what type of cars the other entrees was

[Cynic]

I don't have my references handy, but I believe the Alfa three liter engine for Indianapolis in an Alfa 8C/35 chassis was the original 3.8 liter eight engine, reduced to three liters (not the 12 cylinder from the 12C/36).

I believe the Indy three liter engine still exists, presently in an 8C/35 in the U.S., and frequently
raced in the Shell Historic Challenge.

I'll try to find the detailed references later this weekend.

Cynic

[zakeriath]

This was in the speedway museum last week

[David McKinney]

My list of Alfa Romeo appearances at Indianpolis (inlcudes some – but probably not all – non-starters)
Apologies if this isn’t as clear as it could be – I haven’t figured out how to tabulate for this forum
And apologies in advance to the purists for saying ‘P3’ instead of Tipo B Monoposto – my way’s a lot shorter!

entrant/car name/driver/model/chassis number
1937
Bill White Race Cars/Bowes Seal Fast Special/Rex Mays/8C-35/50012

1938
Bill White Race Cars/Alfa Romeo Special/Rex Mays/8C-35/50012

1939
Bill White Race Cars/Alfa Romeo Special/Babe Stapp/8C-35/50012
Frank T Griswold/Alfa Romeo Special/Louis Tomei/P3/50002

1940
Wharton-Dewart/Alfa Romeo Special/Chet Miller/308/42202
Bill White Race Cars/Hollywood Pay Day Special//Harry McQuinn/8C-35/50012
Frank T Griswold/Alfa Romeo Special/Al Miller/P3/50002
---/George Robson/---/---

1941
Bill White/Ziffrin Special/Harry McQuinn/8C-35/50012

1946
Milt Marion/Alfa Romeo/Louis Durant/308/422022
Bill White/Mobiloil Special/Jimmy Milburn/8C-35/50012
Don Lee Inc/Don Lee Special/Hal Cole/P3/50002

1947
Milt Marion/Permafuse Special/Walt Brown/308/422022
Bill White/Tattersfield Special/Cy Marshall/8C-35/50012
Don Lee Inc/Don Lee Alfa Romeo Special/Ken Fowler/P3/50002

1948
Johnny Mauro/Phil Kraft Special/Johnny Mauro/308/422022
Don Lee Inc/Don Lee Alfa Romeo Special/Ken Fowler/P3/50002

1949
Johnny Mauro/Mauro Alfa Romeo Special/Tony Bettenhausen/308/422022

[mwphoto]

Found my 1989 Alfa-Romeo March CART press kit which had the following infomation on early Alfas at Indy

[corsaresearch]

not much info from my side - just some images which I have in my collection; not sure where and when they were taken though, and
all are from the same negative strip
maybe they are of interest - will include some on the Don Lee Spl. Mercedes as well -
cheerio

[corsaresearch]

[corsaresearch]

[corsaresearch]

[corsaresearch]

[corsaresearch]

[scheivlak]

Originally posted by mwphoto
Found my 1989 Alfa-Romeo March CART press kit which had the following infomation on early Alfas at Indy

Average speed of almost 180 mph

[Rob G]

Originally posted by scheivlak


Average speed of almost 180 mph

And not just once, but twice!

[mwphoto]

Originally posted by Rob G

And not just once, but twice!

Good catch, that's tooo funny!!
On the front of the press kit it says USA on a small sticker and on the back it says Printed in Italy. Seems something got lost in the translation? I would think that an Italian version reads 180 km/h but in the English version, the 180 wasn't converted to ___mph!!

[fines]

Perhaps supercharger does translate to turbo, then, or do we have a new contender for "first turbocharged racing car"? :

Anyway, thanks to corsaresearch for the wonderful photos! And to answer your question, they are all from the 1948 Indianapolis 500!

[Cynic2]

Pete Vack, in his on-line magazine "Veloce Today," had a two-part series on the Alfa 8C/35s. Peter Giddings (who owns the Rex Mays Indy 3-liter engine among many other things) and Peter Greenfield, owner of the ex-Dennis Poore 8C/35 and another 8C/35, were interviewed at some length.


Part I: http://www.velocetod...om/archives/823


Part II: http://www.velocetod...om/archives/879


Rex Mays and the Alfa(s) he raced are discussed in Part I.


Cynic

[fines]

Originally posted in another thread, but it actually belongs here:

Originally posted by fines
I believe there were only three Alfa Romeos racing at Indy:

1) The Bill White Alfa Romeo 8C-35, serial number purportedly 50012, was apparently an unraced spare car at the 1936 Vanderbilt Cup, subsequently purchased by Bill White and rebodied for Rex Mays to drive in 1937 (ret Indy, 3rd Vanderbilt) and 1938 (ret Indy), then Babe Stapp in 1939 (5th Indy), Harry McQuinn in 1940 (11th Indy) and 1941 (7th Indy, with relief by Kelly Petillo), Duke Nalon in 1941 (ret Milwaukee & Syracuse - yes, dirt tracks!), Jimmie Wilburn in 1946 (ret Indy), Cy Marshall in 1947 (8th Indy) and Art Scovell the same year (10th/ret? Milwaukee, ret Langhorne). This car was modified and rebodied to some extent over the years!

2) The Frank Griswold Alfa Romeo B, serial number purportedly 50002, but possibly 50007, a former Scuderia Ferrari car, driven by Louis Tomei in 1939 (12th Indy, with relief by Mel Hansen) and Al Miller in 1940 (ret Indy), sold to Tommy Lee and driven by Hal Cole in 1946 (ret Indy) and Ken Fowler in 1947 (ret Indy) and 1948 (dns Indy).

3) The Wharton-Dewart Alfa Romeo 308, serial number purportedly 422022, formerly owned and driven by Raymond Sommer, was driven by Chet Miller in 1940 (17th Indy, with relief by Henry Banks), sold to Milt Marion and driven by Durant in 1946 (6th Indy), then Lee Wallard the same year (ret Langhorne) and Walt Brown in 1947 (7th Indy), sold to Johnny Mauro and driven by Mauro himself in 1948 (8th Indy, with relief by Louis Durant, 3rd Pikes Peak), Tony Bettenhausen in 1949 (dns Indy), also Mauro again the same year (dnq Indy, ret Pikes Peak) and in 1950 (dnq Indy, 9th Pikes Peak), then possibly Ray Shadbolt (sp?) in 1951 (dns? Pikes Peak), Charlie Bryant in 1952 (7th Pikes Peak) and 1953 (ret Pikes Peak), and Jimmie Good in 1954 (dns Pikes Peak).

A 1938 Alfa Romeo entry for Tazio Nuvolari never appeared, it was said to be for a Tipo 308 (possibly 422022!). Another 308 (Ecurie Naphtra Course, serial number possibly 422044) was entered for "Raph" in 1946 by Harry Schell, but also dna.

The reason for reposting is this picture I recently found:

http://firstturn.net.../51holmes-1.htm

It clearly shows an Alfa Romeo 308 chassis, purportedly driven by Jackie Holmes at Indy in 1951, but none of the available sources show any Alfa entered that year! In fact, the entry list was solid 4-cylinder, except for a couple of V8 Novis, an 8CTF and 8CL Maser each, the Bowes 8, a V8 Mercury and five 6-cylinders, all properly accounted for!

Driver Jackie Holmes was originally entered in #24 "Palmer Special", the 1936 Hartz Champ Car, and there's a small picture in Buzz Rose's "Kings of the Hills" (p84) that shows him sitting in the car, although it is not properly captioned, and not dated. I am, however, reasonably confident that it is the car, and from 1951. He qualified #24 on May 28, too slow, but came back the same day to try #45 "CRC Special", only to be flagged by the team, i.e. the attempt was aborted, presumably because he wasn't going fast enough.

CRC stood for Cincinnati Race Cars, Inc., a company apparently owned by an Ohio businessman called Gordon McKim. CRC's greatest hour came in 1954, when Pat O'Connor won the Midwestern Sprint Car Championship for the team, only for McKim to die from a heart attack on November 11 of that very same year! Reportedly, he was only 40 years old.

Both CRC and McKim are difficult to track in the material available to me, in fact the only traces I was able to find from before 1954 were a note of the purchase of a 220 Offy for the Sprint Car on September 15 in 1953 by one Walter Moeller, in the name of CRC, and the Indy entry of 1951. That was originally intended for Potsy Goacher, and was listed with a 4-cylinder engine of 4 5/16" bore and 4 5/8" stroke - the exact dimensions of a 270 Offy!

Phil Harms has the chassis identified as "Adams", which isn't very helpful, I'm afraid. Other "Adams" chassis in his data were the 1932 Sparks-Weirick "Catfish" (crashed and rebuilt in 1938, and since identified as "Blume"), the 1934 Marks (last seen in 1946, identified as "Wetteroth"), the 1934 Sparks-Weirick (last seen in 1949, and reputedly conserved as such in 1994 still) and the three Sparks-Thorne 6-cylinders, all pretty much accounted for in 1951. Other cars occasionally (and somewhat haphazardly) identified as "Adams" include the 1930 Miller-Schofield "Minnie" (usually a "Stevens", and accounted for in 1951), the 1934 Meyer (also usually a "Stevens", last seen in 1940), the 1932 Sparks-Weirick Sprinter "Poison Lil" ("Stevens", and accounted for) and the 1936 Hartz ("Stevens" as well as "Wetteroth"), which in 1951 was the aforementioned "Palmer Special" #24!

My guess would be that the "Adams" bit is a blind alley, and the car was actually the pictured Alfa Romeo, probably '422022', perhaps even with its original engine! It may well be that McKim and CRC hoped to acquire an Offy, but failing that rented (?) Mauro's Alfa instead. Another possibility would be that they mated an Offy to the Alfa chassis!? What does the plaque in the IMS museum say about the car's history in the fifties?

Anyone with a 1951 Indy Yearbook? :cat::cat:

[f1steveuk]

Originally posted by corsaresearch

I know where that bodywork is!!!

[fines]

No prizes for guessing, eh? :yawn:;)

[dilettante]

Originally posted by corsaresearch

This is not a Alfa Romeo, but the Don Lee's Mercedes W154 drove by Chet Miller ;)

[dilettante]

Originally posted by corsaresearch

... and this the M163 V12 engine of this car.

[sramoa]

Originally posted in another thread, but it actually belongs here:The reason for reposting is this picture I recently found:

http://firstturn.net.../51holmes-1.htm

It clearly shows an Alfa Romeo 308 chassis, purportedly driven by Jackie Holmes at Indy in 1951, but none of the available sources show any Alfa entered that year! In fact, the entry list was solid 4-cylinder, except for a couple of V8 Novis, an 8CTF and 8CL Maser each, the Bowes 8, a V8 Mercury and five 6-cylinders, all properly accounted for!

Driver Jackie Holmes was originally entered in #24 "Palmer Special", the 1936 Hartz Champ Car, and there's a small picture in Buzz Rose's "Kings of the Hills" (p84) that shows him sitting in the car, although it is not properly captioned, and not dated. I am, however, reasonably confident that it is the car, and from 1951. He qualified #24 on May 28, too slow, but came back the same day to try #45 "CRC Special", only to be flagged by the team, i.e. the attempt was aborted, presumably because he wasn't going fast enough.

CRC stood for Cincinnati Race Cars, Inc., a company apparently owned by an Ohio businessman called Gordon McKim. CRC's greatest hour came in 1954, when Pat O'Connor won the Midwestern Sprint Car Championship for the team, only for McKim to die from a heart attack on November 11 of that very same year! Reportedly, he was only 40 years old.

Both CRC and McKim are difficult to track in the material available to me, in fact the only traces I was able to find from before 1954 were a note of the purchase of a 220 Offy for the Sprint Car on September 15 in 1953 by one Walter Moeller, in the name of CRC, and the Indy entry of 1951. That was originally intended for Potsy Goacher, and was listed with a 4-cylinder engine of 4 5/16" bore and 4 5/8" stroke - the exact dimensions of a 270 Offy!

Phil Harms has the chassis identified as "Adams", which isn't very helpful, I'm afraid. Other "Adams" chassis in his data were the 1932 Sparks-Weirick "Catfish" (crashed and rebuilt in 1938, and since identified as "Blume"), the 1934 Marks (last seen in 1946, identified as "Wetteroth"), the 1934 Sparks-Weirick (last seen in 1949, and reputedly conserved as such in 1994 still) and the three Sparks-Thorne 6-cylinders, all pretty much accounted for in 1951. Other cars occasionally (and somewhat haphazardly) identified as "Adams" include the 1930 Miller-Schofield "Minnie" (usually a "Stevens", and accounted for in 1951), the 1934 Meyer (also usually a "Stevens", last seen in 1940), the 1932 Sparks-Weirick Sprinter "Poison Lil" ("Stevens", and accounted for) and the 1936 Hartz ("Stevens" as well as "Wetteroth"), which in 1951 was the aforementioned "Palmer Special" #24!

My guess would be that the "Adams" bit is a blind alley, and the car was actually the pictured Alfa Romeo, probably '422022', perhaps even with its original engine! It may well be that McKim and CRC hoped to acquire an Offy, but failing that rented (?) Mauro's Alfa instead. Another possibility would be that they mated an Offy to the Alfa chassis!? What does the plaque in the IMS museum say about the car's history in the fifties?

Anyone with a 1951 Indy Yearbook?

I didn't find anything from 1951 Clymer Yearbook,but you can check 20 April 1951 Pg. 22 The Indianapolis News

[Michael Ferner]

Excellent! Many thanks for posting!

[Jahn1234567890]

Originally posted in another thread, but it actually belongs here:The reason for reposting is this picture I recently found:

http://firstturn.net.../51holmes-1.htm

It clearly shows an Alfa Romeo 308 chassis, purportedly driven by Jackie Holmes at Indy in 1951, but none of the available sources show any Alfa entered that year! In fact, the entry list was solid 4-cylinder, except for a couple of V8 Novis, an 8CTF and 8CL Maser each, the Bowes 8, a V8 Mercury and five 6-cylinders, all properly accounted for!

Driver Jackie Holmes was originally entered in #24 "Palmer Special", the 1936 Hartz Champ Car, and there's a small picture in Buzz Rose's "Kings of the Hills" (p84) that shows him sitting in the car, although it is not properly captioned, and not dated. I am, however, reasonably confident that it is the car, and from 1951. He qualified #24 on May 28, too slow, but came back the same day to try #45 "CRC Special", only to be flagged by the team, i.e. the attempt was aborted, presumably because he wasn't going fast enough.

CRC stood for Cincinnati Race Cars, Inc., a company apparently owned by an Ohio businessman called Gordon McKim. CRC's greatest hour came in 1954, when Pat O'Connor won the Midwestern Sprint Car Championship for the team, only for McKim to die from a heart attack on November 11 of that very same year! Reportedly, he was only 40 years old.

Both CRC and McKim are difficult to track in the material available to me, in fact the only traces I was able to find from before 1954 were a note of the purchase of a 220 Offy for the Sprint Car on September 15 in 1953 by one Walter Moeller, in the name of CRC, and the Indy entry of 1951. That was originally intended for Potsy Goacher, and was listed with a 4-cylinder engine of 4 5/16" bore and 4 5/8" stroke - the exact dimensions of a 270 Offy!

Phil Harms has the chassis identified as "Adams", which isn't very helpful, I'm afraid. Other "Adams" chassis in his data were the 1932 Sparks-Weirick "Catfish" (crashed and rebuilt in 1938, and since identified as "Blume"), the 1934 Marks (last seen in 1946, identified as "Wetteroth"), the 1934 Sparks-Weirick (last seen in 1949, and reputedly conserved as such in 1994 still) and the three Sparks-Thorne 6-cylinders, all pretty much accounted for in 1951. Other cars occasionally (and somewhat haphazardly) identified as "Adams" include the 1930 Miller-Schofield "Minnie" (usually a "Stevens", and accounted for in 1951), the 1934 Meyer (also usually a "Stevens", last seen in 1940), the 1932 Sparks-Weirick Sprinter "Poison Lil" ("Stevens", and accounted for) and the 1936 Hartz ("Stevens" as well as "Wetteroth"), which in 1951 was the aforementioned "Palmer Special" #24!

My guess would be that the "Adams" bit is a blind alley, and the car was actually the pictured Alfa Romeo, probably '422022', perhaps even with its original engine! It may well be that McKim and CRC hoped to acquire an Offy, but failing that rented (?) Mauro's Alfa instead. Another possibility would be that they mated an Offy to the Alfa chassis!? What does the plaque in the IMS museum say about the car's history in the fifties?

Anyone with a 1951 Indy Yearbook? :cat: :cat:

 

Not sure if this Alfa "mystery" has been solved yet. But, I found an interesting quote of Johnny Mauro regarding the 1951 Indy 500 on this website: http://leonardasf1.n...Alfa_Romeo.html

 

Mauro: "The car was fast becoming obsolete at the speedway, so I reworked the engine as to get 500 more rpm out of it for the 1951 race and blew it up. I sold it to a fellow in Ohio and he turned up at the speedway with a 270 Offy in it. I drove it to compare, but it was not the same car."

 

This adds up to the story posted by Michael. 

 

Also, would anyone have a full record of Alfa's competition in Indycar racing? My Indy 500 stats are pretty comprehensive but I doubt I have al the other races listed in my stats.

 

And lastly, (I know this is a long shot) would anybody know if there are more shot around of the 308 at Indy in 1951?

[Michael Ferner]

Interesting quote by Mauro, thanks, but the mystery has been solved - see post #26 and sramoa's finding of a newspaper snippet confirming that CRC bought the Mauro Alfa and fitted an Offy.

[Jahn1234567890]

My bad, I totally missed that part.