80 replies to this topic

[bidochon]

i'm looking for photos of michel FERTE in 1983 year especially Monaco F3 race he drove a Martini MK 39 in the ORECA MARLBORO team in the French F3 championship

[Gerard Gamand]

here a pic of Michel Ferté Martini MK39 Alfa romeo F3 car

[bidochon]

merci Gerard , si tu le peux trouve m'en d'autres.....sous toutes les coutures , j'ai cette auto et j'espère la faire redémarrer en F3 classic pour le LM story début juillet , ne pratiquant pas très bien
la langue de Shakespeare je compte sur toi pour m'aider sur ce forum , toutes les photos de 39 et de 42 sont les bienvenues

[Gerard Gamand]

OK
Give me your private email in mine.

[MonzaDriver]

Originally posted by bidochon
i'm looking for photos of michel FERTE in 1983 year especially Monaco F3 race he drove a Martini MK 39 in the ORECA MARLBORO team in the French F3 championship

I still remember that wonderful race at Monaco,
incredibly clean on the racing line, effortless, no errors and at the limits.
I was sure another Alain Prost were born.
I really dont understood why his career did not gone ahead.

MonzaDriver.

[bidochon]

yes , Michel Ferte was a very very good driver , so i think that my martini MK 39 # 02 ( winner in monaco 83 ) will be not also quick in my hands that in the hands of michel ....... too bad for me

[MonzaDriver]

Originally posted by bidochon
yes , Michel Ferte was a very very good driver , so i think that my martini MK 39 # 02 ( winner in monaco 83 ) will be not also quick in my hands that in the hands of michel ....... too bad for me

My opinion Bidochon is dont care too much about this feeling of your.
Michel Ferte was a great racing driver, so you are comparing yourself with a difficult example.
I am happy this car still live in the hand of someone who cares about.
It's the same car? Chassis number, livery, engine...........

MonzaDriver.

[jcbc3]

Awesome to have a car like that. I'm envious.

But to the matter at hand. Wasn't Alain considered the more talented at the time?

[MonzaDriver]

Originally posted by jcbc3
Awesome to have a car like that. I'm envious.

But to the matter at hand. Wasn't Alain considered the more talented at the time?

Yes, but after seen this Monaco race I think everyone's opinion change.
If I am not wrong he won a F3 Championship.

MonzaDriver.

[bidochon]

he won french F3 championship in 83 , i'm very proud to have this histhoric care and photos are always welcomme thank's

[GMiranda]

May I ask the dear members if you know more about the careers of Michel and Alain, and their eventual chances to become F1 drivers?? Michel was a honest candidate to Ligier in 1984 until pipped by Hesnault. Alain was on the evrge of joining Osella by 1986 mid-season until he was pipped by Berg.

Do you know about thiese stories?

[ensign14]

All I remember at the time is being surprised nobody had taken a punt on either of the brothers.

[FLB]

May I ask the dear members if you know more about the careers of Michel and Alain, and their eventual chances to become F1 drivers?? Michel was a honest candidate to Ligier in 1984 until pipped by Hesnault. Alain was on the evrge of joining Osella by 1986 mid-season until he was pipped by Berg.

Do you know about thiese stories?

Michel Ferté to Ligier in 1984 was serious enough that it was confirmed by him at the end of the 1983 F1 season show of Auto Moto on TF1. He was a guest on the show. From what I remember about the interview, he wasn't just a candidate; he had the drive. I remember being completely surprised when Hesnault got it instead. 

 

Something must have happened at the last minute.

Edited by FLB, 25 June 2018 - 12:24.

[Michael Ferner]

Same with me. Michel was the second Ligier driver, as far as all the magazines were concerned, then suddenly: poof! François Hesnault?? Who he???

I don't recall Alain having an offer to drive an Osella. Nobody in his real mind wanted that ride, anyway. Danner used it to good effect, yes, but without BMW he wouldn't have progressed, either. It was a dead end street.

Edited by Michael Ferner, 25 June 2018 - 13:33.

[ensign14]

Thinking about it, was Alain linked with AGS?  Perhaps by GPI?

[philippe7]

François Hesnault had a very strong (family) financial backing, which certainly had some sort of influence ...... same story with his "surprising" recruitment by Brabham later on

[ensign14]

Hesnault also had a very Government-linked family.  Owned a transport company which had lots of contracts with the military.  Surely someone close to Mitterrand had a quiet word with Guy Ligier to promote the wrong chap.

[Mallory Dan]

Sorry to say I never really rated the Ferte brothers. They had decent backing and proper cars from about 1980-84 in F3, and didn't show that well in Euro F3. I know they won the Monaco race, but they were in Oreca Martinis, so that doesn't really count.

 

They never showed as well outside France as people like Boutsen, the Fabis, Alboreto, Nielsen in that era. Never mind the Brits in F3 at that time, Byrne, Weaver, Scott, Brundle, JP and so on. The one time Alain F did impress me was Le Mans 89 in the Jag, when he went very well. Even that was in France again. though...

[Michael Ferner]

I have to agree with Dan. At the time, the brothers were the first Monaco F 3 winners not to make it to F 1, and that in itself tells you something. Both looked good in F 2/F 3000, but no more so than Tassin, Nielsen or Theys, all of whom failed to get a chance at F 1. I doubt Ferté would have done better than Hesnault in the Ligier.

[Michael Ferner]

Hesnault also had a very Government-linked family.  Owned a transport company which had lots of contracts with the military.  Surely someone close to Mitterrand had a quiet word with Guy Ligier to promote the wrong chap.

From the distant perspective of an island at sea, every other nation must look like a banana republic, no?

[ensign14]

Given that the French Grand Prix ended up at Mangy Course as a favour to Mitterrand, Ligier had contacts with Mitterrand, had state sponsorship for a while &c &c, isn't it a logical conclusion?

[Michael Ferner]

No. Logic is actually very simple: if the sentences "All cats are green" and "Ensign is a cat" are both true, then the sentence "Ensign is green" is also true. I don't see no logic applied in your reasoning.

[ensign14]

OK.

 

Guy Ligier had French government sponsorship.

 

Guy Ligier had Michel Ferte signed up.

 

Michel Ferte beat Francois Hesnault.

Francois Hesnault had close government links.

 

Guy Ligier drops Ferte for Hesnault.

 

Is that a coincidence?

 

(Logic is not actually very simple.  "If you pull a guinea pig's tail, its eyes fall out."  True or false?)

[john winfield]

OK.

 

Guy Ligier had French government sponsorship.

 

Guy Ligier had Michel Ferte signed up.

 

Michel Ferte beat Francois Hesnault.

Francois Hesnault had close government links.

 

Guy Ligier drops Ferte for Hesnault.

 

Is that a coincidence?

 

(Logic is not actually very simple.  "If you pull a guinea pig's tail, its eyes fall out."  True or false?)

 

Useful resource here. Not much on the Ferté brothers, but.....

 

https://www.theguine...ig-myths.66931/

[Michael Ferner]

(Logic is not actually very simple.  "If you pull a guinea pig's tail, its eyes fall out."  True or false?)

Has absolutely nought to do with logic.

This isn't going to lead anywhere, but just for the record: Guy Ligier didn't have French government sponsorship, it's just that a couple of his sponsors were companies owned by the French state, which is a HUGE difference. And whether Ferté actually signed up with Ligier or merely thought he'd had a contract is something I cannot say with confidence, and it strikes me as particularly odd that a lawyer should be so adamant in his opinions without producing any sort of evidence. In any case, coincidence has nothing to do with logic, it could in fact be viewed as the exact opposite. A logical conclusion is either valid or invalid, there is no in-between. A conclusion based on coincidence (or the absence of same) is nothing more but a guess. It's like saying, "I believe it will rain tomorrow" - whether that's true or not, no man can say, not even the person who utters those words. And, more to the point, it's completely irr-elephant, as Chico Marx would say.

Also, François Hesnault beat Michel Ferté.


Applied logics, lesson 1:


"If you pull an elephant's tail, its eyes fall out."

"All guinea pigs are elephants"

====

"If you pull a guinea pig's tail, its eyes fall out."


Q: Is that a valid logical conclusion?

Answers in emails to ohmygodhowsillyisthis@thinkbeforeyoupost.edu

Edited by Michael Ferner, 28 June 2018 - 10:45.

[F1matt]

Ensign14 wrote.....

 

 

(Logic is not actually very simple.  "If you pull a guinea pig's tail, its eyes fall out."  True or false?)

 

 

 

Please please do not test this theory out, guinea pigs have rights too. 

[ensign14]

They may have rights, but they don't have tails.

 

And Ferte beat Hesnault.  He won the French F3 title.  One wonders how Hesnault got a superlicence as runner-up. 

[Michael Ferner]

Ah, the French Championship. Yes, Ferté won that, but he had only three race wins against Hesnault's five. Some (not necessarily including me) call that a hollow victory. And Hesnault beat Ferté in the more prestigious European Championship.

How did Hesnault get a superlicence? Try and ask Martin Brundle, he should know.

[ensign14]

Neither were entrants in EuroF3, they only had a couple of races each, in the French rounds.  (Although to prove the point perhaps they were beaten by John Nielsen and Roberto Ravaglia.)   Indeed they finished level on points.

 

Plus Hesnault won the final three races - I assume Ferte was driving for points rather than wins by then.

[GMiranda]

Yes, Fertè won with a comfortable margin

[FLB]

OK.

 

Guy Ligier had French government sponsorship.

 

Guy Ligier had Michel Ferte signed up.

 

Michel Ferte beat Francois Hesnault.

Francois Hesnault had close government links.

 

Guy Ligier drops Ferte for Hesnault.

 

Is that a coincidence?

 

(Logic is not actually very simple.  "If you pull a but guinea pig's tail, its eyes fall out."  True or false?)

Ligier got Loto as an additional governement sponsorship for 1984, in part to replace the departed Café do Brasil sponsorship that was brought by Boesel for 1983.

 

They made so much of a deal out of the fact that Loto was coming in and that the cars were now powered by the (governement-owned) Régie Renault that the cars weren't just blue and white, but actually blue, white and red for 1984 (and with a different, darker shade of blue, closer to the official blue of the French national flag than sponsor Gitane's lighter blue).

[arttidesco]

So is the hypthesis that state backed Loto sponsorship was part of a sweatner to replace non state connected Ferte or state connected Hesnault ? 

 

Do we have any evidence from periodicals of the time ?

[sstiel]

http://www.birdcleme...s/the top50.pdf You may disagree or think it sensationalist. Alain Ferte came 44th in this list from Autosport that listed the top 50 drivers who never made it to Formula One.

Edited by sstiel, 13 April 2020 - 15:25.

[Michael Ferner]

If you cut through the crap, "AUTOSPORT has decided to answer this question once and for all..." - Yeah, right! - there's some food for thought. Some good, and not so obvious choices (Motoyama! Jones!!), some rather questionable ones (Warwick? Salomon??). Overall, a bit too focused on the more recent ones that got away, but that's typical for a magazine, and can't really be avoided if you want your readers to stay awake. Most spectacular nomination is probably Don Parker, and at #13 at that! But really, how old was he even in 1950? Geoff Duke would've been a better prospect.

[ensign14]

It's also focussed on the recent ones because there were more opportunities in the past for obvious talents...picking the 1974 European F2 championship at random, only one driver in the top ten (Gabriele Serblin) did not get a World Championship entry.  And if I go back to 1968, you have to go down to joint 15th for someone who did not enter a WC F1 race - and even he raced in an F2 part of one.

[KWSN - DSM]

It's also focussed on the recent ones because there were more opportunities in the past for obvious talents...picking the 1974 European F2 championship at random, only one driver in the top ten (Gabriele Serblin) did not get a World Championship entry.  And if I go back to 1968, you have to go down to joint 15th for someone who did not enter a WC F1 race - and even he raced in an F2 part of one.

 

F1 was very different then, it was not a closed franchise you and I could theoretically buy a March and go racing.

 

[GMiranda]

The 8W list is pretty good too, and includes both Fertés - http://8w.forix.com/...-out-on-f1.html

[Mallory Dan]

Blimey, the Northern TNF Zoom group discussed this very subject last weekend, spooky or what!. Most of those on the AS list were mentioned in our chat. I can't believe AS has Wallace at only 45. Coyne, Loeb, de Ferran were all nominated

[KWSN - DSM]

http://www.birdcleme...s/the top50.pdf You may disagree or think it sensationalist. Alain Ferte came 44th in this list from Autosport that listed the top 50 drivers who never made it to Formula One.

 

As you say agree or disagree, some I had never heard of, some do not belong on the list.... may be wrong, but I do not think drivers who passed before getting the chance belong there. A list should be drivers with a full career, or at least a career where no one will think them as ever racing in F1, on this list they do have Lotterer though, so can happen.

 

Those who should not be there, then to be replaced by some who should.

 

[Richard Jenkins]

I'm not going to comment on too many people but George Lawton probably should be somewhere on there. Denny Hulme considered him by far the greater talent before Lawton's death in 1960 at Roskilde.

[sstiel]

Most of the these kinds of lists have Tom Kristensen at the top.  Will Buxton had more here: https://www.formula1...2yCK1M8vgz.html It's an interesting game to play but for many drivers, they've had fulfilling careers without Formula One.

Edited by sstiel, 15 April 2020 - 10:36.

[jcbc3]

well, he did win two international F3 championships, the Spa F3000 as well as some sportscar races....

[sstiel]

Mr Le Mans of course. Better that than getting frustrated in a Formula One car.

[sstiel]

If you cut through the crap, "AUTOSPORT has decided to answer this question once and for all..." - Yeah, right! - there's some food for thought. Some good, and not so obvious choices (Motoyama! Jones!!), some rather questionable ones (Warwick? Salomon??). Overall, a bit too focused on the more recent ones that got away, but that's typical for a magazine, and can't really be avoided if you want your readers to stay awake. Most spectacular nomination is probably Don Parker, and at #13 at that! But really, how old was he even in 1950? Geoff Duke would've been a better prospect.

Jones. Do you mean Parnelli Jones?

He could have been a Lotus driver in F1 as team-mate to Jim Clark but he said: "I'm nobody's B driver."

Paul Warwick is a sound choice. 

Don Parker was 42 in 1950 but there were still Grand Prix drivers who were older than that at the time.

Edited by sstiel, 15 April 2020 - 13:43.

[Michael Ferner]

Geoff Duke was 26, I think.

 

I haven't seen anyone but his brother praise Paul Warwick, i.e. of those whose judgement I'd trust. He didn't really show much outside of his championship year in British F3000, did he? And remind me, who else won that championship in other years, and who did Warwick beat? C'mon, without looking it up!

 

As for Jones being offered a ride by Lotus, I never knew! That would've been something, I'm sure!

[GMiranda]

Perhaps it isn't a bad idea to go back to Michel and, perhaps, Alain Ferté's careers and notes. There are a lot of other threads about unfulfilled promises and I'm sure both 8W and Autosport+ lists were already analysed, even if this input is always excellent.

[KWSN - DSM]

Perhaps it isn't a bad idea to go back to Michel and, perhaps, Alain Ferté's careers and notes. There are a lot of other threads about unfulfilled promises and I'm sure both 8W and Autosport+ lists were already analysed, even if this input is always excellent.

 

Now I know that I am in the Nostalgia Forum.

 

[sstiel]

https://www.youtube....h?v=iG9aGGbrqNc Tribute video to Michel Ferte. Alain is still active in racing so I wonder what Michel is doing.

 

Interesting Hugues de Chaunac of ORECA thought of the two: "Michel was the more talented but he wasn't hungry enough. Alain was very talented also, but had more desire and the better approach."

Edited by sstiel, 15 April 2020 - 14:59.

[GMiranda]

I wrote the summary of his palmares on Autodiva Forum:

 

1971-1976 - Karting
1977 - Volant ACO, 2º
1978 - French F.Renault (Genovese Auto Racing Team), 22º, 6 courses
1979 - Tourisme France, quelques courses
            Volant BP ???
1980 - Volant Marlboro, winner
1981 - Tourisme France, 21º, 22 pts;
1982 - F3 France (ORECA), 2º, 117 pts, 2 victoires
           F3 Monaco (ORECA), 8º
1983 - F3 France (ORECA), Champion, 123 pts, 5 victoires
           F3 Monaco (ORECA), winner
           F2 (BMW France), 20º, 1 pt, 3 courses
           24h Le Mans (Rondeau), ret
1984 - F2 (ORECA/Martini), 3º, 29 pts
           Monaco F3 (???), ??
           24h Le Mans (Preston Henn), ret
           Ligier F1 test driver
1985 - F3000 (ORECA), 5º, 17 pts
           Ligier F1 test driver
1986 - F3000 (oreca), 5º, 24 pts
           Ligier F1 test driver
1987 - F3000 (BS Automotive/Genoa Racing), 14º, 5 pts, 6 courses
1988 - F3000 (Sport Auto Racing), 20º, 1 pt.
           24h Le Mans (Courage), ret
1989 - F3000 (CoBra Motorsport), 1 course
           24h Le Mans (Jaguar), 8º
1990 - Supertourisme France (??), 2º, 204 pts
           24h Le Mans (Jaguar), ret
           IMSA (Ferrari France), 2 courses
1991 - Supertourisme France (Garage Horizon), 5º, 130 pts
           24h Le Mans (Jaguar), 2º
           Porsche Carrera Cup France, 1 course
1992 - Supertourisme France (BMW France), 14º, 52 pts
            Peugeot 905 Spider Cup, 1 course
1993 - ??
1994 - BPR (Jacadi Racing), 2 victoires
            24h Le Mans (Jacadi Racing), ret
1995 - BPR (Pilot Aldix Racing), 26º, 63 pts, 1 victoire
           24h Le Mans (Pilot Aldix Racing), 12º (6º GT1)
1996 - BPR (Pilot Aldix Racing), 29º, 60 pts
           24h Le Mans (Pilot Aldix Racing), ret
1997 - ISRS (Pilot Racing), 2 courses
           24h Le Mans (Pilot Racing), ret
1998 - 24h Le Mans (Pilot Racing), ret
1999 - 24h Le Mans (Pescarolo Sport), 9º
2000-2002 - N'a pas couru
2003 - GT France (XL Racing), 2 courses
           24h Le Mans (XL Racing), ret
2011-2019 - Quelques courses VdV

[MCS]

The comparison between Michel and Alain Ferte is interesting.  There is an interview with the latter in a recent edition of Echappement Classic and this is from a thread on TNF posted fourteen years ago (!) . . .

 

Originally posted by ghinzani
From that lost era of French drivers, Fabien Giroix, Michel Ferte and Alain Ferte. The latter was outbid by Berg for the Osella drive in mid 86.

 

On his day (and that was when everything had to be just right - and there clearly weren't enough of them!), Alain Ferte was very good.

Witness his drives against supposedly better team mates (e.g Bellof) when, on the right day, they simply couldn't compete with him.

I know for a fact that Bellof, for one, was badly psyched out on one occasion, at least.

In terms of French drivers, I would say Alain Ferte and Eric Cheli were the two biggest talents that never fulfilled their true potential, with Jean-Marc Gounon and, possibly, Michelle Trolle next up.

This doesn't take into consideration Dayan and Solomon; a different era and very difficult to really compare.

Edited by MCS, 15 April 2020 - 19:47.