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Lotus 23 Normand Racing 23-S-48 23-S-49


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#101 Michael Oliver

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Posted 03 February 2011 - 16:35

Michael,

23-S-25 was ex USA about 20 years ago maybe a bit less , bought in and restored very correctly
by Brian Wilson , without digging out file , was at one stage owned by a serving FBI agent which made
contact challenging apparently.

Bryan Miller.

So that's why I can't find a copy of the book , work in progress.


Bryan

Thanks for that, must have been interesting!

Michael


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#102 Kale

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Posted 04 February 2011 - 18:27

Vince,

That's an interesting thought but it was the 'raced in two events' bit which made me think the McLean car could not be 23-S-98, as to my knowledge it only did one race in 1963, the Autosport 3 hrs at Snetterton at the end of the season. But otherwise it would fit in well with the description... Perhaps it did another smaller race that we just don't know about? It is unlikely to be either of the other two cars as they were raced extensively (eg much more than two events) throughout 1963.

Michael


Hello r. atlos

My Lotus 23 ( EX. Behnke, Hurler, Floth , Lotterschmidt and Sebbach ) had a badge on the frame between the seats with the number MK23/9 !
Behnke says : The car comes to germany in 1965 with a 1100ccm Cosy and a Renault box.
Any new informations about the car ?
Why the number was MK23/9 and no S - Number ?
Is the car a real Lotus 23 oe a early fake ?

regards Karl

#103 r.atlos

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Posted 05 February 2011 - 23:37

Hi Karl-Heinz - good to hear from you ! How is progress on your 23 or is still your RP9 first priority ?

I have not done much on my Lotus files in recent times but there is one thing for sure: The German history of your car is continously documented from at least 1966 onwards. That's not what I call a fake !

Ok, it did not look like a 23 in the end when it was in the hand of Lotterschmid (1971) or Sebbach (from 1972 onwards) but that's what many many sister cars suffered from, as well. If it was #23-S-09 (as your chassis tag says) it would have been the first car of Irish racer Billy Bradshaw but I am still missing the link how it got to Germany. However, where I get increasingly confused is whether we are talking about the Lotus chassis number or the frame number.

(One of the reasons is the discussion here around 23-S-04 which I have in my files as being a car having been in Germany in 1972 in the hands of Winkler with Porsche engine [and bodied like a KMW] and having subsequently moved to Pedrazza and further on.)

Back to your car: From the bits and pieces that Behnke had offered or sought I would suggest that it definately came here in 1965 or 1966 with a Colotti gearbox. I have small ads on file where Behnke offered it for sale with this 'box (July 1967 - but without engine) and where he has been seeking a Hewland (March 1966).

At one point in March 1968 (half a year or so after he sold the car to Karl Hurler) he has also offered a special three valve head conversion for a Kent engine. Has that been on the car when he bought it ?

May be all this gives some hints to our fellow members. One of the awful things when interviewing German or Continental drivers about the origin of their 2nd hand cars is when you ask them whom they bought it from: "From England ...."


Edited by r.atlos, 05 February 2011 - 23:43.


#104 Peter Morley

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Posted 08 February 2011 - 15:00

Presumably the number on Karl Heinz chassis means it is the 9th Lotus 23 chassis made by that particular chassis maker - it is a frame number, not a chassis number.
Normally the 9th Arch Motors chassis would have said AM9 in that spot.
So, did anyone other than Arch Motors make Lotus 23 chassis?
Did Lotus have their usual falling out with a supplier during the manufacture of 23s and change supplier at some time?

Lotus ordered chassis in batches from an outside supplier and then built them up into cars, so there is no exact correlation between the frame number and the chassis number (but there might be a record of which chassis had which frame), but it is fair to assume that a low chassis number would have used a low frame number since they arrived in small batches rather than 130 in one go - unless they changed suppliers part way through and the frame numbers started from 1 again...

So whether K-H's chassis is an early one would depend on when Lotus first used the manufacturer of his chassis...

There were of course other ways of obtaining Lotus chassis, going direct to the manufacturer and avoiding paying Lotus's mark up for example, but it would seem unlikely that such chassis would have been numbered!

#105 Red Socks

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Posted 08 February 2011 - 16:59

Did Lotus make some of their own chassis to begin with. They must have made the first one and if there was an instant iorder book it may well have made sense for them to make the first few whilst waiting for Arch Motors to gear up.

#106 BT 35-8

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Posted 09 February 2011 - 01:58

We have here in Australia ,and it has been since late 1960's with a letter confirming the car's
origins FRAME # 23-S-23 , built by Frank Coltman at Progress Chassis for a Fiat car dealership
owner in the U.K. the car came to Australia circa 1968/9 and due to an owner many years ago
trying to prove [ badly] that is was 23-S-23 on the dash plate , he simply didn't understand , causing
a lot of hair tearing as the proper 23-S-23 went to Canada I believe.
That particular car with that frame number would not have had a chassis plate on dash ever ,one suspects.

So we have , Arch Motors , Progress Chassis , were Racing Frames doing Lotus chassis ?? , maybe Buckler
as they did early Brabham chassis , anybody know /suspect anyone else.

Bryan Miller.

#107 Michael Oliver

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Posted 13 February 2011 - 01:38

We have here in Australia ,and it has been since late 1960's with a letter confirming the car's
origins FRAME # 23-S-23 , built by Frank Coltman at Progress Chassis for a Fiat car dealership
owner in the U.K. the car came to Australia circa 1968/9 and due to an owner many years ago
trying to prove [ badly] that is was 23-S-23 on the dash plate , he simply didn't understand , causing
a lot of hair tearing as the proper 23-S-23 went to Canada I believe.
That particular car with that frame number would not have had a chassis plate on dash ever ,one suspects.

So we have , Arch Motors , Progress Chassis , were Racing Frames doing Lotus chassis ?? , maybe Buckler
as they did early Brabham chassis , anybody know /suspect anyone else.

Bryan Miller.

I have it on good authority that 'Tom the Weld' - real name I believe Roy Thomas, now, sadly, no longer with us - produced Lotus 23 copies, which may explain some cars appearing that were not listed in the customer records or which could be accounted for by ownership changes...


#108 arttidesco

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Posted 27 November 2011 - 11:01

Wondering if any one knows the chassis number of the Lotus 23B Chris Goodwin was driving at the Goodwood Revival this year ?

The white with two thin red stripes #22 entry appears to carry a registration number "T 22222" front and back which is unlike any UK or European registration I recall seeing and is not recorded on HPI, does this allude to a story about it's past ?

Relevant answers may be credited and used in a forth coming blog, thanking you in anticipation of your answers.

#109 r.atlos

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Posted 28 November 2011 - 00:37

That's an Innsbruck registration ("T" for "Tyrol") and it appeared on the 23 of Alban Scheiber in 1963.

#110 arttidesco

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Posted 28 November 2011 - 01:59

That's an Innsbruck registration ("T" for "Tyrol") and it appeared on the 23 of Alban Scheiber in 1963.


Thanks Lutz :up:

Now if only the car had carried an 'A' on the back I might have guessed, thinking about it of course the red stripes were a bit of a give away :blush:

On racingsportscars.com Alban is shown as competing on 3 Hill Climbs with a Lotus 23 entered by 'OASC', afraid I was still in shorts and not yet at school in 1963 would you happen to know what OASC stands for Oestreiches Auto Sport Club perhaps ?

Edited by arttidesco, 28 November 2011 - 02:00.


#111 raceannouncer2003

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Posted 28 November 2011 - 07:32

Peter Lipskis recently posted this video mini-bio of the late Bob McLean:



Sadly, Bob's widow Kathie, who appears on the video, passed away earlier this year from cancer.

Just past the three-minute mark on the video, there is a brief video clip of a Lotus 23 being unloaded from a ship, presumably Bob's before it was repainted in Rob Walker colours. Does this give any clue as to who drove it in the UK in 1963 before Bob got it early in 1964, and which chassis it was?

Vince H.

#112 r.atlos

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Posted 28 November 2011 - 22:33

On racingsportscars.com Alban is shown as competing on 3 Hill Climbs with a Lotus 23 entered by 'OASC', afraid I was still in shorts and not yet at school in 1963 would you happen to know what OASC stands for Oestreiches Auto Sport Club perhaps ?

Correct, ÖASC stands for Österreichischer Automobil-Sport-Club. They organised among other events the airfield races in Aspern (near Vienna) and Innsbruck and often also acted as entrants for Austrian and foreign drivers.

Alban Scheiber used to run a very successful hotel business (and still does today with his two sons) which explains why his presence on circuits and hills was sparse and in-between. I think his 23 passed on to Toni Fischhaber at one point and was one of three 23s used by him with BMW power.

Edited by r.atlos, 28 November 2011 - 22:34.


#113 arttidesco

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Posted 29 November 2011 - 03:48

Correct, ÖASC stands for Österreichischer Automobil-Sport-Club. They organised among other events the airfield races in Aspern (near Vienna) and Innsbruck and often also acted as entrants for Austrian and foreign drivers.

Alban Scheiber used to run a very successful hotel business (and still does today with his two sons) which explains why his presence on circuits and hills was sparse and in-between. I think his 23 passed on to Toni Fischhaber at one point and was one of three 23s used by him with BMW power.


Thanks for the ÖASC clarification Lutz :up:

I noticed a lot of references to an alpine ski resort when I googled Alban.

I found two pictures of Alban in Lotus 23's one with the distinctive T22222 bodywork the other with dark body work and cut out rear wheel arches at Ollan Villars in 1965.

I notice the car Chris Goodwin drove is Ford powered on the entry list.

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Does anyone have a chassis number for either the Scheiber car and or the Goodwin car ?

#114 Michael Oliver

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Posted 29 November 2011 - 13:51

Peter Lipskis recently posted this video mini-bio of the late Bob McLean:



Sadly, Bob's widow Kathie, who appears on the video, passed away earlier this year from cancer.

Just past the three-minute mark on the video, there is a brief video clip of a Lotus 23 being unloaded from a ship, presumably Bob's before it was repainted in Rob Walker colours. Does this give any clue as to who drove it in the UK in 1963 before Bob got it early in 1964, and which chassis it was?

Vince H.


Hi Vince

Good spot! It could be the car delivered to hillclimber Betty Haig with a twin-cam in light blue on 20/02/63. Although she hillclimbed it at places like Shelsley Walsh and Prescott during 1963, she didn't get on with the car and exchanged it for an Elan because she 'had no time to race it in the 1964 season'. So it went back to Lotus in 1964, perhaps to be driven on occasion by a works driver? Not much I know... It has a distinctive colour scheme with those white stripes and the aluminium on the top of the rear bodywork, so hopefully someone should be able to ID it.

Michael


#115 r.atlos

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 01:06

I found two pictures of Alban in Lotus 23's one with the distinctive T22222 bodywork the other with dark body work and cut out rear wheel arches at Ollan Villars in 1965.

[...]

Does anyone have a chassis number for either the Scheiber car and or the Goodwin car ?

I think the white (and original) Scheiber car of 1963 was 23-S-68, originally delivered through Walter Schatz in Austria. It must have passed on to Toni Fischhaber late in 1963 for the 1964 season.

The "dark" one from Ollon - Villars 1965 is a different one in my view, as one other ex-Fischhaber car seems to have gone back to Scheiber "some years later". This is thought to be 23-S-114.

#116 raceannouncer2003

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 21:13

Very interesting. However, Bob McLean received his Lotus 23B early in 1964...his first race in it was in April of 1964. So would it be the same one? If so, I wonder what the chassis number was, and if it is still around.

Vince H.

Hi Vince

Good spot! It could be the car delivered to hillclimber Betty Haig with a twin-cam in light blue on 20/02/63. Although she hillclimbed it at places like Shelsley Walsh and Prescott during 1963, she didn't get on with the car and exchanged it for an Elan because she 'had no time to race it in the 1964 season'. So it went back to Lotus in 1964, perhaps to be driven on occasion by a works driver? Not much I know... It has a distinctive colour scheme with those white stripes and the aluminium on the top of the rear bodywork, so hopefully someone should be able to ID it.

Michael



#117 Michael Oliver

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Posted 03 December 2011 - 00:49

Very interesting. However, Bob McLean received his Lotus 23B early in 1964...his first race in it was in April of 1964. So would it be the same one? If so, I wonder what the chassis number was, and if it is still around.

Vince H.

Well, I suppose the wording leaves some room for interpretation, in that she could have decided towards the end of 1963 that she wasn't going to have time to race the car in 1964 and the deal to swap the 23 for an Elan was done then...

#118 arttidesco

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Posted 03 December 2011 - 09:08

I think the white (and original) Scheiber car of 1963 was 23-S-68, originally delivered through Walter Schatz in Austria. It must have passed on to Toni Fischhaber late in 1963 for the 1964 season.

The "dark" one from Ollon - Villars 1965 is a different one in my view, as one other ex-Fischhaber car seems to have gone back to Scheiber "some years later". This is thought to be 23-S-114.


Thanks Lutz :up:

#119 r.atlos

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Posted 04 December 2011 - 17:41

I found two pictures of Alban in Lotus 23's one with the distinctive T22222 bodywork ...

I must admit that the Austrian Lotus webpage in your link has mislead me for ages, believing that their caption was right and that registration T22.222 was that of Alban Scheiber's 23 - until recently when I stumbled across a race number that did not fit ...

After some careful checking with other period shots I now need to correct my earlier statement above: Alban Scheiber had registration T13.080 on his 23 while T22.222 was that of Walter Schatz.

The confusion may probably come from the fact that both ran a white 23 with two red stripes in 1963 ! It was only from 1964 onwards that Walter Schatz changed his colour scheme to a navy blue with one single white center stripe.

Edited by r.atlos, 04 December 2011 - 17:42.


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#120 Michael Oliver

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Posted 05 December 2011 - 14:13

I must admit that the Austrian Lotus webpage in your link has mislead me for ages, believing that their caption was right and that registration T22.222 was that of Alban Scheiber's 23 - until recently when I stumbled across a race number that did not fit ...

After some careful checking with other period shots I now need to correct my earlier statement above: Alban Scheiber had registration T13.080 on his 23 while T22.222 was that of Walter Schatz.

The confusion may probably come from the fact that both ran a white 23 with two red stripes in 1963 ! It was only from 1964 onwards that Walter Schatz changed his colour scheme to a navy blue with one single white center stripe.


Interesting, Lutz. I don't have my records to hand (always dangerous!) but is that not because in 1963, they were both entered under the guise of the OAMTC? So the Goodwin car has the wrong registration, then?


#121 ERault

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Posted 14 January 2012 - 17:03

For those interested in Austrian Lotus 23s, here are some stunning color photos of a nasty bunch of them against the Abarth works team at the 1965 Aspern Donau-Pokal :

http://www.technisch.../articleid/2406



#122 Cardo

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 16:39

Olav

Do you have a date for when Hildebrand made his first race appearance with his car? I guess the car could have been bought after Clark drove it at the Autosport 3hrs at Snetterton in 1963? Normand ran three cars - 23-S-48, 23-S-49 and 23-S-98 that day, I believe.

When did Cees Fokke Bosch buy the car from him and how long did he own the car for? Does he remember to whom (or which country/continent) he sold it?

Michael

Tonio never owned the car, he drove it. My father bought the car from Colin Chapman and Tonio raced it for the Lonertex racing team. I have a foto here of my father and Tonio in the car after a race on Zandvoort. Cardo Nerden



#123 Cardo

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 17:03

Tonio never owned the car, he drove it. My father bought the car from Colin Chapman and Tonio raced it for the Lonertex racing team. I have a foto here of my father and Tonio in the car after a race on Zandvoort. Cardo Nerden

If I find out how I'll post the foto here.



#124 Michael Oliver

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 10:28

Tonio never owned the car, he drove it. My father bought the car from Colin Chapman and Tonio raced it for the Lonertex racing team. I have a foto here of my father and Tonio in the car after a race on Zandvoort. Cardo Nerden

 

Thanks Cardo, would be very interested to see the photo! And also to know when he bought it. If there are any documents giving chassis number etc that would be very useful too...