105 replies to this topic

[Eliteboy27]

Bruno was testing a 430 challenge car today. he looked pretty rapid when i saw him. Good on him I say for driving as many things as he can get his hands on.

I do think in years to come he will shine in F1, maybe not like Ayrton, but shine all the same. He definately seems to be a sensible lad.

[BuonoBruttoCattivo]

Aytron always wanted to drive for Ferrari one day (with Boutsen as teamate).

He wasn't sure of his abilities to raise Ferrari to high-levels, somefing MS proved was possible...
Senna wanted immediate gratification....

This for me, is the key in why MS was a more complete driver, and more special than Senna...

[SilverArrowF1]

...and your post glorifying Schumacher relates to Senna and Ferrari how?

[Levike]

Originally posted by BuonoBruttoCattivo
Aytron always wanted to drive for Ferrari one day (with Boutsen as teamate).

He wasn't sure of his abilities to raise Ferrari to high-levels, somefing MS proved was possible...
Senna wanted immediate gratification....

This for me, is the key in why MS was a more complete driver, and more special than Senna...

Maybe. But Ayrton was much more spectacular, and Ferrari (in Ayrton's time) was really a mess.
In 1995 They were showing big progress.

[tifosi]

Originally posted by Levike


Maybe. But Ayrton was much more spectacular, and Ferrari (in Ayrton's time) was really a mess.
In 1995 They were showing big progress.

In 1990 they won the WDC excpet for being taken out by the punter.

[Clatter]

Originally posted by tifosi


In 1990 they won the WDC excpet for being taken out by the punter.

But they punted thier way to it again in 94.

[Porsche996]

Originally posted by BuonoBruttoCattivo
Aytron always wanted to drive for Ferrari one day (with Boutsen as teamate).

He wasn't sure of his abilities to raise Ferrari to high-levels, somefing MS proved was possible...
Senna wanted immediate gratification....

This for me, is the key in why MS was a more complete driver, and more special than Senna...

Hmm, I have never actually heard Senna express any wish to drive for Ferrari. Could you please post a link to a quote where Senna stated that he wanted to go to Ferrari.

Thanks.

[holiday]

Has this thread a topic? No.

Has AS a place in Racing Comments? No.

:yawn:

[F1 Tor.]

Originally posted by BuonoBruttoCattivo
Aytron always wanted to drive for Ferrari one day (with Boutsen as teamate).

He wasn't sure of his abilities to raise Ferrari to high-levels, somefing MS proved was possible...
Senna wanted immediate gratification....

This for me, is the key in why MS was a more complete driver, and more special than Senna...

More complete, I could see that. More special, not a chance.

[rfus]

hey guys I'm justing posting in this thread to say Schumacher's good

[Porsche996]

Originally posted by rfus
hey guys I'm justing posting in this thread to say Schumacher's good

What makes you say that? He is being trashed by Trulli.

[george_boy]

Originally posted by Clatter


But they punted thier way to it again in 94.

ferrari didnt win wdc in 1994

[AndreasF1]

Buono Butto Cattivo :

This for me, is the key in why MS was a more complete driver, and more special than Senna...
____________________________________________________________________________

Dear BBC please don't hijack a thread for satisfying your own MS superiority complex. This thread has absolutely nothing to do with MS. Stay on topic

[MarlBorOBR]

Everyone is ancious to see him at F1 and since even a driver like Massa is winning, why not bruno?

ps: The Senna´s wish to drive for ferrari came from the italian team, also never read or heard Senna wanted to drive for ferrari one day, he always wanted a winner car!

[HSOF]

What i heard was that Senna was in contact with Todt for a future drive just before imola 94!!
He wasn't so happy in the Williams team like he thought he shuld be when he signed the contract, the car had big handling problems and was nothing like it was the years before, when Prost and Mansell raced home the wdc and the constructer for the the team

But about Senna the younger, i think he will be in F1 very soon maybe already next year, but atleast for 2009? looking for to it

[BuonoBruttoCattivo]

Originally posted by AndreasF1
Buono Butto Cattivo :

This for me, is the key in why MS was a more complete driver, and more special than Senna...
____________________________________________________________________________

Dear BBC please don't hijack a thread for satisfying your own MS superiority complex. This thread has absolutely nothing to do with MS. Stay on topic

c'mon...just having some fun here...
this place is too easy..

the original poster is too lazy to write a proper headline, this should teach him a lesson...

[BuonoBruttoCattivo]

Originally posted by Porsche996
Could you please post a link to a quote where Senna stated that he wanted to go to Ferrari.

Thanks.

Yeah asswipe, where do you want me to send the link to?

[Tolyngee]

Originally posted by BuonoBruttoCattivo

where do you want me to send the link to?

Please post it in this thread. Others are also interested in reading this, if in fact it was... factual?

If in any way based on fact, it either was before he ever even went to McLaren, or during/after Prost's tenure at Ferrari, meaning it was more than likely merely a jab at Prost's inability to get the Ferrari to where Senna could, not any desire to actual drive for them.

Case in point: There are life-long Ferrari fans who turned their back on Ferrari during the MS years, and there are MS fans who simply had to endure his years at Ferrari. that's how political a response the name "Ferrari" receives.

Before Senna had cemented his name in F1 (prior to McLaren), I don't see what interest he would have in Ferrari. If there's any fact to it, he was merely taking jabs at Prost.

It's not like MS had any desire to drive for Ferrari either, 'til political strings pulled him in there...

MS blowing his engine in 1996 (1st Ferrari year) on the warm-up lap at France must have had MS shaking his head at himself at the time...


Though it is interesting how Kimi can leave a team that at best will get him 4th in the DC, go to a team that should be able to get him the DC, and he's back at 4th place again... While the team he left has a driver leading the DC...

[kenny]

the story was confirmed by Jean Todt, it was Senna himself who looked up Jean to discuss a drive...
And Senna's family confirmed this: it was Senna's dream to race a Ferrari no matter what state it was in...
that is the reason he joined Williams first, to rack up another title or 2, and then head of for Ferrari...
now his Manager (Julian Jakobi) confirmed that before Imola 94, Senna had requested him to get a seat at Ferrari already for 1995.. he didn't like the Williams environment at all...

[Mobil1NSXR]

Originally posted by Porsche996


What makes you say that? He is being trashed by Trulli.

LOL

[lustigson]

Originally posted by kenny
now his Manager (Julian Jakobi) confirmed that before Imola 94, Senna had requested him to get a seat at Ferrari already for 1995.. he didn't like the Williams environment at all...

That surprises me. 1995 already?

I've always wondered whether Senna would have won the 1994 title had he survived the Imola crash. He could have, even if he had performed only marginally better than Hill. 1995 would have been a different story, though, with Schumacher in the Benetton-Renault and Senna in the Williams.

After that, I'd say Senna could have joined Ferrari while Schumacher opted for McLaren-Mercedes, making Ron Dennis' M-team complete: McLaren, Mercedes, Mobil, Michael, Mika... and, later, Michelin. But that's a bit off-topic.

[kenny]

Originally posted by lustigson

That surprises me. 1995 already?

Apparently Senna said that he wanted to go to Ferrari no matter what, even if it was a dog of a car...

Adriana Galisteu once said that he had 3 dreams: going to Disney, having a son, and drive a Ferrari...

[Henri Greuter]

Originally posted by kenny


Apparently Senna said that he wanted to go to Ferrari no matter what, even if it was a dog of a car...

Adriana Galisteu once said that he had 3 dreams: going to Disney, having a son, and drive a Ferrari...

Well, I wonder if he could have achieved what Michael eventually did at Ferrari. The fact that his appearance didn not keep McLaren on a different level from 1989 on makes me think that. Of course you must wonder if Honda was still as committed in late '91 and 92 as they had been before.
I can't help have my doubts that Senna could not have motivated Ferrari as much as MS did. Lot of the Senna magic was based around himself and his genious. Michael was not as genial in that on his own. But teaming up with the people he needed and who could work with him made the difference. The more while those people he worked with could also motivate their own people again. The real power behind MS was the fact that he was part of a little group that, once placed in the right enviroment was hard to beat and devastatingly effective.


Henri

[Tolyngee]

Three years ago, for the 10th anniversary of Imola, there was a plethora of articles written about that weekend. Of course most centered around Senna.

And I still don't ever remember reading a single word about Senna's desires to next drive for Ferrari.

And there's still not a single link in here to a story?

After seeing how stiff Senna was getting out of the Williams and getting around after his retirement in Brazil '94, I couldn't help but think his conditioning hadn't prepared him for the physical punishment of these new cars. That his career was on the downturn. We never got to see that play out though, as the Pacific GP lasted one corner, and he died at Imola.

Again, if there's any truth to this, and it was to be a post-Williams move, I can't help but feel it would be an acknowledgment on Senna's part this his career was on the downturn...

Besides, the environment at Williams? It was the same as always!? Mansell was dumped for Prost. Senna pushed Prost's dumping so he could drive for them!

Senna himself helped create whatever environment existed. And he knew Williams has no history of coddling his drivers.

Until I read an article, I am having trouble understanding any of the logic or motives of any of this...

Unless, as said, it was simply an acknowledgment that his career was indeed on the downturn...

To jump to a team that just a few years back fired Prost? Hmph... Why? How could that environment be an improvement to Williams?



Although, on a final note, Senna's pal o' pals Berger had driver many seasons for Ferrari... Taking that into consideration, Senna would know much about Ferrari through him.

Maybe I am wrong. Perhaps Senna knew exactly what he would be getting into.

Hmmm, although I still don't remember reading about any of this, the Berger factor cannot be ignored...

I suddenly find this story interesting and credible!

So, please, where can I read more?!

[Owen]

To claim that Senna wanted to drive for Ferrari is very difficult to prove, I don't recall any credible stories about this at the time. He simply wanted to drive the quickest car out there which, at the time, was not a Ferrari or a Mclaren, it was a Williams.

[brunopascal]

Originally posted by Tolyngee
And I still don't ever remember reading a single word about Senna's desires to next drive for Ferrari.
...
To jump to a team that just a few years back fired Prost? Hmph... Why? How could that environment be an improvement to Williams?

I remember reading an article where LdM claimed that Senna would have eventually raced for Ferrari, that it was something Senna wanted to do before he retired. (I think it was around 2004 LdM said that).

I once read another article (don't remember where/which, so I can't link to it unfortunately) containing a short interview with Senna from around 1992-1993. In it, Senna said about joining Ferrari something along the lines of: "It's too much trouble and turmoil at Ferrari, and if not even Prost could turn Ferrari around, it's not worth it". (Something like that, don't remember the exact words).

But I haven't read anything from Senna stating explicitly that he wanted to join Ferrari sometime.

[brunopascal]

A quick search on google yielded this:

From The N.Y. Times:

AYRTON SENNA has rejected bids to drive with the Ferrari team in 1993 and was quoted as saying he may stop racing for one year if he cannot rely on a competitive car next season.

Senna was quoted by Ferrari's manager, NIKI LAUDA, as saying he wants to join the Williams team or go on a temporary retirement.

Senna, the defending world Formula One champion, who won two Grand Prix races this year but still lost the drivers title to NIGEL MANSELL, discussed plans for the next championship with Lauda at the Monza autodrome, where most Formula One teams are testing their cars for the coming Italian Grand Prix.

"He told me that's Williams or nothing next season. Ayrton wants a winning car, which only Williams-Renault can give him," said Lauda, a former world champion.

(This is not the same article I was referring to in my previous post)

[HSOF]

Here is a link from 94, but it's also confirmed of Todt, but i couldn't find that article yet :

http://news.bbc.co.u...one/3647401.stm

Enjoy....;)

[Owen]

Originally posted by brunopascal
A quick search on google yielded this:

From The N.Y. Times:

good find.

[kenny]

http://forums.autosp...y=&pagenumber=1

[HSOF]

If someone understan italian, i think this is the confirm of Todt??



Jean Todt: Senna fu a un passo da un accordo con la Ferrari...

La morte, giunta a Imola il primo maggio '94 ha impedito il clamoroso accordo tra Ayrton Senna e la Ferrari. L'episodio è stato raccontato dal capo della scuderia di Maranello Jean Todt, durante il 14/o incontro stampa sulla neve di Madonna di Capiglio, organizzato da Philip Morris, Fila, Fiat e Sabelt.

Quale è il suo ricordo di quel giorno a Imola? è stato chiesto a Todt: "Fu una giornata triste per la perdita di un grande campione". E poi l'aneddoto: "Ho avuto un'esperienza con Senna. Ci siamo visti durante il Gp di Monza, quando da pochi mesi io ero arrivato in formula 1".

Era il '93: lo incontrai per parlare di un eventuale futuro in Ferrari nel '95. In quel momento la Ferrari andava malissimo, era probabilmente uno dei periodi più neri nella storia della scuderia, eppure Senna manifestò il suo interesse a vestirsi di rosso: "Rimasi sorpreso - ha detto Todt - che un pilota del suo livello fosse interessato a correre per la nostra squadra. Però è da capire la cosa, perché la Ferrari è un mito, e come mito anche lui aveva il sogno di correre per noi".

L'incidente al Tamburello ha impedito una storia che avrebbe appassionato i tifosi di tutto il mondo.

[HSOF]

Originally posted by Henri Greuter



Well, I wonder if he could have achieved what Michael eventually did at Ferrari. The fact that his appearance didn not keep McLaren on a different level from 1989 on makes me think that. Of course you must wonder if Honda was still as committed in late '91 and 92 as they had been before.
I can't help have my doubts that Senna could not have motivated Ferrari as much as MS did. Lot of the Senna magic was based around himself and his genious. Michael was not as genial in that on his own. But teaming up with the people he needed and who could work with him made the difference. The more while those people he worked with could also motivate their own people again. The real power behind MS was the fact that he was part of a little group that, once placed in the right enviroment was hard to beat and devastatingly effective.


Henri

He wouldn't couse he wouldn't race untill 2006, but Ms had probebly never been a Ferrari driver, he had probebly goone to McLaren, but who know what he could archive there??

[brunopascal]

Originally posted by HSOF
If someone understan italian, i think this is the confirm of Todt??

I speak basic italian, and your quote is virtually the italian version of what's in the link provided by kenny (although kenny's link contains a little bit more).

[Peri_Piket]

Originally posted by brunopascal

I remember reading an article where LdM claimed that Senna would have eventually raced for Ferrari, that it was something Senna wanted to do before he retired. (I think it was around 2004 LdM said that).

Yes, Senna's desire was racing for Ferrari before his retirement, that at that time was close.
Ayrton was very found of Ferrari and enjoyed the Italian approach to auto racing and design, having business with De Longhi and most of his licensed products were italian too.

I keep wondering that IF Senna had joined Ferrari, there would be another tech staff in Ferrari.
After the John Barnard fiasco, Instead of seeing the Benetton pack (Byrne, Brawn) we might have seen another group (Gordon Murray, Neil Oatley or Adrian Newey), as Todt arrived first and chose the driver, then the driver brought his staff.

Senna would have been WDC and WCC bcs there have been countless car revisions on all those years.

[MarlBorOBR]

Originally posted by BuonoBruttoCattivo
Aytron always wanted to drive for Ferrari one day (with Boutsen as teamate).

He wasn't sure of his abilities to raise Ferrari to high-levels, somefing MS proved was possible...
Senna wanted immediate gratification....

This for me, is the key in why MS was a more complete driver, and more special than Senna...

Ayrton never said anything about ferrari! And I´m brazillian....all the hundred millions interviews he gave he has never metioned it! Not even his relatives said anything about that supposed wish...

Jean Todt thinks everything resumes to ferrari and as far as I remember Senna never gave a **** about ferrari while he was still alive, he never even had a ferrari car in his garage, but always AUDIs! He loved AUDI´s cars...

[giacomo]

Originally posted by HSOF
What i heard was that Senna was in contact with Todt for a future drive just before imola 94!!
He wasn't so happy in the Williams team like he thought he shuld be when he signed the contract, the car had big handling problems and was nothing like it was the years before, when Prost and Mansell raced home the wdc and the constructer for the the team

"What I heard..."

Classic internet BB hoax.

[tifosi]

Originally posted by MarlBorOBR


...all the hundred millions interviews he gave he has never metioned it! Not even his relatives said anything about that supposed wish...

DAMN!!!!! That's like 2,739 interviews a day throughout his career. EVERY DAY!!!!! When the **** did he have time to drive.

[Peeko]

Originally posted by kenny
the story was confirmed by Jean Todt, it was Senna himself who looked up Jean to discuss a drive...
And Senna's family confirmed this: it was Senna's dream to race a Ferrari no matter what state it was in...
that is the reason he joined Williams first, to rack up another title or 2, and then head of for Ferrari...
now his Manager (Julian Jakobi) confirmed that before Imola 94, Senna had requested him to get a seat at Ferrari already for 1995.. he didn't like the Williams environment at all...

Originally posted by kenny


Apparently Senna said that he wanted to go to Ferrari no matter what, even if it was a dog of a car...

Adriana Galisteu once said that he had 3 dreams: going to Disney, having a son, and drive a Ferrari...

Originally posted by MarlBorOBR


Ayrton never said anything about ferrari! And I´m brazillian....all the hundred millions interviews he gave he has never metioned it! Not even his relatives said anything about that supposed wish...

Jean Todt thinks everything resumes to ferrari and as far as I remember Senna never gave a **** about ferrari while he was still alive, he never even had a ferrari car in his garage, but always AUDIs! He loved AUDI´s cars...

So what you're saying is that Kenny's full of ****? When it somes to stories regarding Senna I'll believe kenny.

[Lifew12]

I'm pretty certain that Senna once said something about wanting to drive for Ferrari before he retired, using the old 'every driver wants to drive for Ferrari' cliche in the mix.

I have no 'link' unfortunately, but thats far from surprising.

However, I thought the opening post was about Bruno?

[MarlBorOBR]

Originally posted by Peeko







So what you're saying is that Kenny's full of ****? When it somes to stories regarding Senna I'll believe kenny.

Believe what you want, I only believe what Senna says not what a person like Jean Todt who always denied RB´s submission to MS untill austria prooved he was just lying.....

Everyone who enjoys ferrari would like to buy one to keep on the garage, and Senna had money enough to buy how many ferraris he wanted to! How come then no ferraris on his garage? stop playing ferrari´s is every driver´s goal

[MarlBorOBR]

Originally posted by BuonoBruttoCattivo


This for me, is the key in why MS was a more complete driver, and more special than Senna...

Exactly, that´s why MS had to win under team orders from one of the greatest of all times RB....

[John B]

Keep in mind that Senna spent the first four seasons of his career driving for Toleman and Lotus, though he had reasonable seasons with Lotus they really weren't championship caliber cars. I imagine this would have reduced his motivation to bypass title opportunities at McLaren or Williams for another rebuilding effort. By the same stage of his career, MS had two championships at an early age, and consequently a bit less to lose by risking a season or two with Ferrari.

[Peeko]

Originally posted by MarlBorOBR


Believe what you want, I only believe what Senna says not what a person like Jean Todt

Unfortunately Senna cannot say a whole lot. However, Senna's family, his Manager (Julian Jakobi),
and Adriana Galisteu are not Jean Todt. Are they full of **** too or is Kenny making stuff up?

[Lifew12]

Originally posted by MarlBorOBR




Everyone who enjoys ferrari would like to buy one to keep on the garage, and Senna had money enough to buy how many ferraris he wanted to! How come then no ferraris on his garage?

End of thread - that is the ultimate proof. If Ayrton had no Ferrari in his garage he quite clearly did not want to race for the Scuderia - so obvious, why havn't we noticed it before? Mind you, quite how he would have fitted one in amongst all those free Honda NSX's i don't know.

stop playing ferrari´s is every driver´s goal

Find me an F1 driver who would not relish driving for the most legendary name on F1 history at some point during his career.

[turin]

wasn't this thread about Bruno

[Atreiu]

Originally posted by turin
wasn't this thread about Bruno

Yes, but it took exactly one reply to become hijacked. Must be a record.

[tifosi]

Originally posted by turin
wasn't this thread about Bruno

Up until the first reply

[Ilaya]

Originally posted by MarlBorOBR
Everyone who enjoys ferrari would like to buy one to keep on the garage, and Senna had money enough to buy how many ferraris he wanted to! How come then no ferraris on his garage? stop playing ferrari´s is every driver´s goal

Let's try and use your warped logic:

Hey Senna NOT having a Ferrari in his garage is even more proof that he wanted to drive for Ferrari in his career.
He expected to fill his garage with a lot of free/discounted ferrari's as soon as his dream of driving for Ferrari would materialize. That must be it.

but anyway although you claim to be brazilian I'd still go with Kenny's explanation, he's got cred here.

[mach4]

Originally posted by turin
wasn't this thread about Bruno

The thread never had a chance with a title like "Senna and Ferrari".

[Porsche996]

Find me an F1 driver who would not relish driving for the most legendary name on F1 history at some point during his career.

Alonso. Right back when he was at Minardi he was talking about "when will Ron be calling". He is known to have been aspiring to McLaren all his life, not Ferrari.