40 replies to this topic

[kar]

Seriously, with the new safety car regs we are seeing defacto team orders being executed through fuel strategy for Q3.

What was meant to be a way of mixing up the grid to prevent predictable races, and of course to put a stop to Michael Schumacher and Ferrari's dominance seems to be terribly out of touch with the current state of F1.

Michael is retired, Ferrari are level pegged with McLaren for technical superiority and rather than mixing up races it's rather having the race winner picked by team bosses rather than drivers and races.

It's ridiculous that Lewis effectively lost the ability to win today when Ron decided to put him on a one stopper on Saturday. It's ridiculous that Ferrari have to pick between Massa and Raikkonen for who they want their main pole position charge to be. They both should have equal opportunity.

There's no real hope of a fair equitable shoot for pole position right now, teams have to pick one driver to back and this year it is grid position rather than fuel loads that seems to be the determining factor on Sundays.

So I think NOW is the time to remove this ridiculous fuel burning/race fuel q3, nominate fuel loads before q3, and go for it in q3 on fumes.

THIS CANNOT HAPPEN SOON ENOUGH. The way things are going this championship is going to be decided by who gets what fuel strategies on Saturday rather than a genuine level playing field shootout by the drivers.

I just don't understand why the press isn't asking this question?

[Cenotaph]

I hate this qualifying system, so i think it must die too... I wish the classic 12 laps/1 hour system returns, there was nothing wrong with it.

[kar]

I don't mind this system, but because of the new safety car rules we're seeing teammate strats always split by 2-3 laps which basically is the difference between most teammates. Effectively then, the fuel strategy determines which of the two will do better in qually.

That effectively means team orders occur every single race since the team has to pick one driver to put on the optimum (read lightest) strat, when grid positions are sometimes determined by hundreths having a 3 tenths advantage purely down to fuel loads over your teammate is huge.

[smirnoff-ice]

i am sure of being very alone with that but i want to have the single-quali-lap format back

[Risil]

Change it all. Have a single practice session on Friday, then qualifying on Saturday morning, and then 2 practice sessions in the afternoon and one on Sunday morning. Teams will then have different race pace to qualifying pace, having a small, non-artificial mixing-up of the pack that has created some excellent racing in the past.

[gerry nassar]

This type of qualifying has become quite tedious too. Bring back the one hour low fuel sessions!! Waiting to see who pits first and who "really" was faster than who in qualifying 30 laps into the race is just pointless.

Something along the lines of Risil's idea would be good. Also remove all parc ferme rules, remove the engine rev limit and scrap this silly tyre rule.

[Cplu]

take away refuelling at the end of Q3 and the whole show will be a much more interesting proposition IMHO.

[ensign14]

Make them start three abreast. Should be more interesting.

[brunopascal]

Originally posted by Cenotaph
I hate this qualifying system, so i think it must die too... I wish the classic 12 laps/1 hour system returns, there was nothing wrong with it.

I agree

[Blythy]

possible soloutions - no race fuel as above, but I think a better format would be having one lap qualifying in Q3 with no race fuel and have it backwards, so who came 10th in Q2 goes last.

that way, we see the limit in Q3, and Q2 becomes more interesting as it's more of a gamble, jepordise you lap by going too slow and ending up out of Q3 or going too fast but having to go out first.

Although I did like 12 laps in an hour, but sometimes it could be ridiculous.

[BuonoBruttoCattivo]

Originally posted by Blythy


Although I did like 12 laps in an hour, but sometimes it could be ridiculous.

nothing is perfect, but it is better than current ideas implemented since 2003...

[metz]

Just let them refuel after Q3. Simple!

[Mauseri]

Originally posted by smirnoff-ice
i am sure of being very alone with that but i want to have the single-quali-lap format back

I disagree once again. You are not the only one. Single lap format was great in TV.

It would be better without race fuel, but for the lack of racing FIA just have to orchestrate more pit stops

[Cplu]

Originally posted by metz
Just let them refuel after Q3. Simple!

No, don't let them refuel.

think about the tactics that would be involved.

You fill your car to what you want for the race + enough to do three laps.

and then have to qualify.

you go out with 5minutes to go and get P1.

but then someone tops your time by .050

you know you can beat it, but do you risk it and compromise your strategy?

You could get P1, but will be 3-4 laps short of what you wanted.

you might also stuff the lap, and be no better off and have 3-4 laps less fuel for your 1st stint.

brings the cat and mouse element back into it.

Funnily enough, is EXACTLY what we would have if not for people like Ronzo whining about having a fat fuel tank design.

Flavio even suggested it regardless after dealing with the farce at the start of last year.

you won't see the vapour times of Q2 - but would be a damn site more interesting with no burn off period either.

[Tolyngee]

Originally posted by ensign14
Make them start three abreast. Should be more interesting.

Have them start in single file. Then teams could save money, as you wouldn't even need to bother running the race to know the outcome...

[Deepak]

Teams hand out fuel loads before Q3 to FIA & the Q3 session goes ahead without race fuel loads & when the Q3 is done teams fuelup the car as declared to FIA before start of Q3.

[wingwalker]

Originally posted by Deepak
Teams hand out fuel loads before Q3 to FIA & the Q3 session goes ahead without race fuel loads & when the Q3 is done teams fuelup the car as declared to FIA before start of Q3.

agreed.

[smirnoff-ice]

Originally posted by micra_k10

I disagree once again. You are not the only one. Single lap format was great in TV.

It would be better without race fuel, but for the lack of racing FIA just have to orchestrate more pit stops

i thought it was great. the crazy idea of bernie to let cars start the race itself with slowest cars in front and fastest back on the grid of course never can become reality but the single-lap qualifying with wm leader has to go out first on green track and the slower ones getting better track for their laps brought at least a BIT of a speed-equality to all.
it had to end because michelins superior quali-performance but now with everyone one same tires .... bring it back!

[kar]

Originally posted by Deepak
Teams hand out fuel loads before Q3 to FIA & the Q3 session goes ahead without race fuel loads & when the Q3 is done teams fuelup the car as declared to FIA before start of Q3.

Exactly. Seriously the press needs to raise this issue and fast. Because otherwise this season is just going to end up being determined by who puts who on what fuel strategy in qualifying, and it's completely ruining the one session that remains interesting - qualifying.

I'm sick of drivers having to say 'i'm on a good strategy' when he's just outqualified his teammate fuel adjusted. The fastest driver on the day should get just reward.

Schumacher's gone, Ferrari are no longer dominant, it's time to remove the cripple clauses brought in to stop them. Because now it's ruining the show for everyone.

[Limits]

If they are keeping qualifying, which is a boit unnecessary at the moment, they must:

1. Skip the race fuel in Q3
2. Count the best time from any session

That means that you could set a hammer of a time in Q1 and go home. Or at least wait until the end of Q3 to improve. Why have a lot of cars filling the track that does not need to be there? Less blocking and **** and the whole thing would be easier to capture by the TV producers.

The very least they should do is to publish the fuel loads directky after Q3 - the teams must give the information to race control at the start of Q3.

But best, the only reasonable, solution is to get rid of the race fuel qual. We have had soon half a decade where pole position means nothing. Messes up the life for future historians.

[MattFoster]

Originally posted by Cenotaph
I hate this qualifying system, so i think it must die too... I wish the classic 12 laps/1 hour system returns, there was nothing wrong with it.

I couldn't agree more

[Gecko]

Originally posted by Limits
1. Skip the race fuel in Q3
2. Count the best time from any session

This makes so much sense you can bet it has no chance of actually making it. This would basically be the old 1 hour system save for the shootout bits after every 15-20 minutes, and this would nicely solve the only problem the old system had, which was that there was little happening in the first half an hour.

[glorius&victorius]

Now we will never know who is really faster... Alonso or Hamilton...Kimi or Massa...
We will just never know...

Actually the whole refuelling should be banned... maybe something to think about:
-all cars should start with equal mimimum weight (say 800kg) and finish with equal minimum weight (say 700 kg).
-The difference in mass start - mass finish should be the mass of the fuel (100kg), given that all cars use the same density fuel.

- Given these parameters, the teams could change engine mapping to consume exactly that amount (100kg or less) over the course of a race.

Offcourse this shouldnt be too rigid, allowance for variation of the finish mass of 700kg. For example if a driver didnt complete all laps, because spending 3 laps in the pit, it should be allowed that the finish mass will be 708 kg....

---

The reason why a fixed start weigh should exist is to make sure all cars weigh equally at the start. Otherwise there will be situations where the Mercedes fuel consumption is less than Ferrari and therefore the Ferrari start weigh must be higher because of additional fuel.


Another solution for this would be to give each car a fixed amount of "way too much" fuel. Say a race consumes only 70 kg of fuel. The cars would need to fill up with 100 kg, as the start weight is 800 kg. No matter what.

Most cars at the finish would weigh 800 - 70 = 730 kgs... but it would be allowed if a car weighs 700 kgs. But 699 kgs is disqualified.

Engineers will work towards a consumpition which will give the car an end weigh of 710-700. But thats ok...

the main thing is that the start weight is equal (800), and that drivers and engineers can figure out themselves how to stay above 700. For sure there will be an engine mapping and engineering part to it, but drivers would have to deal with not going under 700.

** I dont know the exact weight of an F1 car, nor how much weighs the fuel load... so the numbers are just to explain the logic.

[F1Champion]

Originally posted by Cenotaph
I hate this qualifying system, so i think it must die too... I wish the classic 12 laps/1 hour system returns, there was nothing wrong with it.

I still don't know why they got rid of it......just because you couldn't always track the leaders laps? How often did that happen...enough to get rid of the format? I don't think so.

Fuel burning serves no purpose...look there goes "x" who has burnt off his fuel load for his 1st stint tomorrow and is now going for a hot lap.....

In my opinion the old format was better because there was more variation in fuel loads, with the current rules, there is only one strategy, either 1 stop or 2 stops.
Imagine a driver qualifying in the top 10, chooses to run a 1 stop fuel load and pulls himself into a podium position, that's more exciting than what is happening at the moment, more variation. You will acknowledge the driver's skill more when you see a driver on a one stop fuel load is only lapping 0.3 slower than someone ahead with a two stop fuel load and is pulling himself into a good final position.

[Dudley]

Originally posted by Cenotaph
I hate this qualifying system, so i think it must die too... I wish the classic 12 laps/1 hour system returns, there was nothing wrong with it.

Yes there was, the artificial 12 lap limit.

Something along the lines of Risil's idea would be good. Also remove all parc ferme rules, remove the engine rev limit and scrap this silly tyre rule.

People really don't realise that it's the rev limit that actively prevents overtaking.

If you have a rev limit lower than your engine can do, everyone sets their car up to hit it at the end of the longest straight.

So you'll never have overtaking at the end of the longest straight anymore because everyone is going the same speed, their max speed, slipstream or not.

Without a limit, someone can risk some extra revs in the draft and have a shot, i.e - almost every overtake at the monaco chicane ever, which is why we didn't see any today.

Just let them refuel after Q3. Simple!

They already do.

[kar]

Some engines will provide more power at that rev limit compared to others though.

Rev limit isn't the be all and end all of top speed. Although I'd imagine to be fair it is a serious differentiating factor.

[DSP]

Originally posted by smirnoff-ice
i am sure of being very alone with that but i want to have the single-quali-lap format back

No you're not.

This was indeed the best qualifying format. It just needed the improvement of allowing the cars to qualify on "fumes".

[Umpire]

Bring 12-lap, pre-2003 qualifying back.

Alternatively, keep the current format but for heaven's sake, let them qualify on low fuel.

[J2NH]

The gripe for some was that for the first 30 minutes of the old 12 lap system, very few cars took to the track. The positive for the teams, generally the less competitive teams, was that they got max exposure for their sponsors. It never bothered me, it just helped build the tension.

All of this could have been fixed if the FIA had just required that each team make one Q attempt during every 20 minutes during the one hour/12 lap system.

The 12 lap system worked because it allowed drivers to go back out and try again, MIKA AND MS IN JAPAN 2000, perhaps the best qualifying session in recent (93 to present) history. That qualifying session was better than 80% of the races I have seen.

Imagine Kimi, Massa, FA and LH slugging it out without regard to fuel!


Bring back the 12!

[george_boy]

The qual is fine this is just the usual whining. The 12 lap qual sucked.

[HSOF]

I think we shuld go back to the system we had in the beginning of 2005 but with no racefeul on board for the second Qualifying!!

Or bring back the 1 hour qualifying, but let the drivers drive as mutch they want, then i can promise u that we will see cars just not only in the last 30 min ;)
And with this one scrap the silly enginerule and rew limiting. Also ban refueling!!

[xflow7]

I've said it before, but what the hell may as well chime in again. My vote for best system is what CART did (actually, I think CC still does it).

Split the field into two groups based on practice times. Then run qualifying as two half-hour lapping sessions; first the slow group, then the fast group.

The sessions will be short enough that teams won't be able to afford to sit around doing nothing for very long. And the traffic situation is much improved vs. the old 1 hour system since only max 11 or 12 cars are on track. Plus, it still allows for the "shake-up" factor now and then with a fortuitously timed rain storm or the like.

Oh, and no race fuel during qualifying, although I do kind of like the idea of the teams having to commit to their starting fuel load prior to qualifying.

Having said that, I kind of like the current system too except for the fuel load thing.

[wingwalker]

Originally posted by george_boy
The qual is fine this is just the usual whining. The 12 lap qual sucked.

i think the current system is better than ever, but the fuel burning phase of Q3 (which takes like 2/3 of it) is pointless and stupid to watch. im surprised they havent sort it out already.

[Leif Snellman]

Originally posted by Limits
If they are keeping qualifying, which is a boit unnecessary at the moment, they must:

1. Skip the race fuel in Q3
2. Count the best time from any session

We can blame Ron Dennis for the miserable Q3 rule. I think all other teams were positive to a change back in 2005 but he insisted they had built 2006 McLaren fuel tank for that rule. Got no idea why rule wasn't changed for 2007.

Also we can blame cry baby Fisichella for the miserable current safety car rules that even without actual safety car deployments destroys the races nowadays.

[boydy87]

Originally posted by Cenotaph
I hate this qualifying system, so i think it must die too... I wish the classic 12 laps/1 hour system returns, there was nothing wrong with it.

Amen. It was exciting watching the cars battling out for outright performance knowing that they had same fuel. The fuel strategies in qualifying waste it now.

However i do like the knockout system if they could employ that into the old system then we have a winner IMO.

[Stephan]

Originally posted by Leif Snellman



Also we can blame cry baby Fisichella for the miserable current safety car rules that even without actual safety car deployments destroys the races nowadays.

What the hell are you talking about?

[Leif Snellman]

Im talking about the fact that Fisichella made a lot of fuss about having lapped cars in front of himself during a restart last year. So much fuss that FIA decided to change he safety car rules so that lapped cars will now be moved to the end of the queue before the restart. With that came also rules about closed pits and other idiotic things so that teams are now scared what will happen in a pace car situation and prefer to take the drivers in early.

[RTX]

Originally posted by kar


Exactly. Seriously the press needs to raise this issue and fast. Because otherwise this season is just going to end up being determined by who puts who on what fuel strategy in qualifying, and it's completely ruining the one session that remains interesting - qualifying.

I'm sick of drivers having to say 'i'm on a good strategy' when he's just outqualified his teammate fuel adjusted. The fastest driver on the day should get just reward.

Schumacher's gone, Ferrari are no longer dominant, it's time to remove the cripple clauses brought in to stop them. Because now it's ruining the show for everyone.

This system has been used since 2003 and we had great season in 2003, 2005, and 2006. Why is it so bad suddenly this year?

[Risil]

Originally posted by RTX


This system has been used since 2003 and we had great season in 2003, 2005, and 2006. Why is it so bad suddenly this year?

We also had great seasons in 1999, 1998, and 1997. What is scary is how the 2005 and 2006, and so far the 2007, seasons have been seemingly devoid of all on-track action. If one weighs up the effects of the race-fuelled qualifying, it appears that it has been a contributing factor.

[RTX]

Originally posted by Risil


We also had great seasons in 1999, 1998, and 1997. What is scary is how the 2005 and 2006, and so far the 2007, seasons have been seemingly devoid of all on-track action. If one weighs up the effects of the race-fuelled qualifying, it appears that it has been a contributing factor.

I also preferred the old system but Kar is carrying on like its not even possible to have a good race this year for some reason. If you have the speed you can make any strategy work, just look what Michael did.

[Dudley]

Originally posted by Umpire
Bring 12-lap, pre-2003 qualifying back.

Alternatively, keep the current format but for heaven's sake, let them qualify on low fuel.

Why the 12 lap restriction? What does it serve?