289 replies to this topic

[Handwashed]

There seems to me to be a lot of similarities here.

Montoya was rated very highly before he started at McLaren and people predicted championship wins etc... but it didn't work out. He didn't gel with the team and was dumped ahead of schedule.

With Kimi, the almost universal pov before the season was that Kimi would walk it this year - the BS advantage for Ferrari would mean nobody would come close to stopping Raikkonen, certainly not Massa!

But that's all been proved false. Seems like the doubters (I was always one of them) were right and that Kimi had been grossly overhyped as the next big thing. He hasn't adapted to Ferrari at all well. His one win came as a result of Ferrari's 1s per lap advantage and the fact Massa's car failed on Saturday. Kimi had no challenge that race, it was bound to be a very very easy win. The next four races he's been very poor, and indeed Massa has been easily the more impressive of the two Ferrari drivers in the last 3 GPs.

Kimi isn't even doing himself any favours with his bad attitude, such as leaving the circuit early to watch the ice hockey ffs.

I can't help but wonder if this relationship isn't going to last ever so much longer...

Thoughts?

[Man of the race]

No.

[RTX]

You are right, its very similar. Seems people underestimated the difficulties of changing teams.

[Handwashed]

How come MOTR? : Ferrari are paying the guy £30m or something insane like that... why would they continue to do that when his performances have been so poor?

[Ferrari_F1_fan_2001]

With Nicholas and Jean Todt having a more 'personal' relationship with Massa - not to mention Michael Schumacher serving as a mentor to Massa as well - Felipe will always curry more favour within Ferrari (IMO) than Kimi.
However, Kimi is supposed to be 'the next big thing' (his salary of $20m means Ferrari expected him to perform like Schumacher; amazingly and consistently fast; an all rounder, good in every condition etc etc etc) so he has to be able to put that out of his system and deliver. Maybe then he'll "gel" a bit more within the Ferrari clique. Felipe has embraced the Ferrari atmosphere, Kimi hasn't. It could turn sour like in 1991 when Alain Prost became disenchanted with the Scuderia.

[MortenF1]

Todt has been complimentary about him, and some of their engineers thinks that there's more speed in Räikkönen than it was in Schumacher. It's just about finding that sweet spot.
And when they do....

I'm gonna take Teemu Selanne's words (Menace's sig) and make them mine; "The ketchup bottle is open so we just have to keep pushing. It's hard to get it out, but when it comes, it's going to come and it's going to come a lot."

[Man of the race]

I wait until I judge. That is why I will not waste time by thinking about it now. That's why.

[AndreasF1]

It could turn sour like in 1991 when Alain Prost became disenchanted with the Scuderia

_____

These 2 situations have nothing in common. Prost was a 2 WDC and was in great part responsible for bringing Ferrari back to the Top. His only problem was that he couldn't hack it out with Fiorio and that the 91 Ferrari was a dog of a car.

[jimm]

Originally posted by AndreasF1
It could turn sour like in 1991 when Alain Prost became disenchanted with the Scuderia

_____

These 2 situations have nothing in common. Prost was a 2 WDC and was in great part responsible for bringing Ferrari back to the Top. His only problem was that he couldn't hack it out with Fiorio and that the 91 Ferrari was a dog of a car.

Prost was a 3x WDC at that time.....and Ferrari were very fast in 1989, just not reliable and had more inconsistant drivers in the cars.

The problem with 1991 was that Prost had basically called for the team boss's head in 1990 when Mansell passed him and almost took him out (ala Senna 1988) at the beginning of the race at Estoril. So, the bad feelings were there for at least 1 year before.

[Hyatt]

i as well am scratching my head at kimis performance ... the impression i had over all the years begins to fade ...

[jimm]

Originally posted by Hyatt
i as well am scratching my head at kimis performance ... the impression i had over all the years begins to fade ...

Actually, I am starting to doubt as well...Never liked him personally, but thought he likely had the most speed...Unless he starts to pick it up, he will be forced to support Massa...never thought that would happen.

[robnyc]

Originally posted by RTX
You are right, its very similar. Seems people underestimated the difficulties of changing teams.

I agree, I was always one of those who stood by the claim that adjusting to a new team was not an easy task and not it has been proven right with Kimi's performance this year.

[robnyc]

Originally posted by jimm


Actually, I am starting to doubt as well...Never liked him personally, but thought he likely had the most speed...Unless he starts to pick it up, he will be forced to support Massa...never thought that would happen.

I actually thought that Kimi would start outperforming Massa from Monaco on. I was really expecting Kimi to beat Massa last Sunday and not loose that many points.

[Handwashed]

So do we think he'll still be with the scuderia next season?

[andy walker]

I think Kimi will come good, I think a lot of it has to do with the tyres being less grippy and his full on style of driving.

He needs to adjust his behaviour. You are right about him disappearing after a race. Schuey would be there for ages after, analysing and going over stuff with his mechanics.

He needs to radically change his attitude a bit if he wants to become world champion at any time in the future. Montoya DID also have a similar thing going on.

Now Montoya drives Taxi Cabs. Kimi beware!

[Limits]

Originally posted by Handwashed
So do we think he'll still be with the scuderia next season?

Propably not. Ralf seem to be on his way from Toyota and needs a new seat.

[andy walker]

they should put a lapdancer on the nose cone, that would make Kimi go faster.

[jimm]

Originally posted by Limits

Propably not. Ralf seem to be on his way from Toyota and needs a new seat.

Why would ralf be a better option than Kimi even in Kimi's latest form?

[hello86]

Well I fear that it will come out like that.

[giacomo]

Originally posted by jimm
Why would ralf be a better option than Kimi even in Kimi's latest form?

I am quite sure that Limits was making a joke...

[Ricardo F1]

We'll see if Monaco is a sign of things to come or not. Kimi was much quicker than Massa all weekend on THE drivers circuit. Does that mean he's got his set ups working properly? I guess we'll see in a couple of weeks. Shame he made such a silly mistake Saturday, but hey, things happen.

One thing is right though, Kimi needs to start winning and start winning now. He should have be able to adapt to the Bridgestones by now.

[Ricardo F1]

Originally posted by Handwashed
So do we think he'll still be with the scuderia next season?

Is that supposed to be the most ******** question of the decade?

p.s. I do wish the Kimi bashers would stop re-registering under different handles.

[Limits]

Originally posted by giacomo
I am quite sure that Limits was making a joke...

What? I would never dream of making jokes when Ralf is involved!

[derstatic]

I think Kimi has what it takes. He has out performed DC in a similar way MH did at McL. He usually out shone Montoya who was incredibly quick on his day (although somewhat inconsistant).

What I do belive is going on is that Massa is very underrated, atleast when he's not under big pressure and he definately needs to prove himself in the wet. But when things are going Massa's way he is very very good. He did run with Schuey and beat him on merit on occation last year.

We've seen before how talanted drivers struggle to adapt to a new environment. There was RB going to Honda, JPM going to McL, JV going to Sauber to name a few. Now we might add Kimi to Ferrari and atleast in some part FA to McL.

IMO it's too early to write Kimi off, but I'd also like to admit I've been very impressed by Massa this season. If Kimi is not Massa's equal come the first races next season, then there's a problem.

[jimm]

Originally posted by Limits

What? I would never dream of making jokes when Ralf is involved!

Sorry I missed the read...carry on

[Menace]

Originally posted by robnyc


I actually thought that Kimi would start outperforming Massa from Monaco on. I was really expecting Kimi to beat Massa last Sunday and not loose that many points.

The only reason he didn't was because of a very costly mistake by Kimi in Q2. Until then, Kimi looked like the only Ferrari driver capable of challenging the Mclarens this weekend.

His time will come. He is already starting to find those extra tenths as he is more comfortable in the car.

[Handwashed]

Originally posted by Ricardo F1
Is that supposed to be the most ******** question of the decade?

p.s. I do wish the Kimi bashers would stop re-registering under different handles.

You what? : I've been a member here since last September ffs.

[giacomo]

Originally posted by derstatic
IMO it's too early to write Kimi off, but I'd also like to admit I've been very impressed by Massa this season. If Kimi is not Massa's equal come the first races next season, then there's a problem.

So you expect Raikkonen not beating Massa the whole 2007 season?

[miniman]

There is no love lost between Todt and Luca DiMontezmolo, hence it is not surprising that Kimi's adjustment to Ferrari is proving more difficult than expected.

Kimi came in to Ferrari one year too early; all the political intrigue that led to Schumi's early retirement was destabilizing in 2006 and continues to be exceedingly costly in 2007.

[HSOF]

He was missfurtuned in Monaco, but i think we all we see in Canada what he's capable of??
Atleast beating Massa if he will win depends on McLaren's ongoing form who seems now very strong!!

[Menace]

Originally posted by miniman
There is no love lost between Todt and Luca DiMontezmolo, hence it is not surprising that Kimi's adjustment to Ferrari is proving more difficult than expected.

Kimi came in to Ferrari one year too early; all the political intrigue that led to Schumi's early retirement was destabilizing in 2006 and continues to be exceedingly costly in 2007.

Has there been any accurate info/source on all of this, or is this just pure hearsay and speculation?

[MortenF1]

Originally posted by derstatic
I think Kimi has what it takes. He has out performed DC in a similar way MH did at McL. He usually out shone Montoya who was incredibly quick on his day (although somewhat inconsistant).

Räikkönen has certainly got what it takes, and that in spades.
Actually Räikkönen proved quicker relative to Montoya than he did to DC, and that when in 2003- and 4 DC had what was probably his worst seasons. Being fair to Montoya the G's P he did in 2006 wasn't exactly what yoy'd expect from him either. It was below par.

[Louis Mr. F1]

As a McLaren fan, I was sad to see Kimi go, I was hoping to see him partnering Alonso, but it turned out pretty good for the silver stable. Even though he's struggling, I still think once Kimi gets things sorted out, he'll be quite a force to reckon and ahead of Massa, the McLaren drivers need to take advantage of Kimi's little slump.

and I've my doubt on the support that he gets from Jean Todt, MAYBE indeed there's an undercurrent power struggle (between Jean & Luca) in the Scuderia that subtlely favours Massa - not sure, just my gut feeling.

[prty]

A post I made a little ago:

PDLR talked about Kimi's style during the Monaco race. He said that he likes to enter the corners sliding the rear, he needs a very specific geometry suspension to do that, and that's why he was the only McLaren driver using an special geometry which the rest of them didn't like

[Menace]

Originally posted by prty
A post I made a little ago:

PDLR talked about Kimi's style during the Monaco race. He said that he likes to enter the corners sliding the rear, he needs a very specific geometry suspension to do that, and that's why he was the only McLaren driver using an special geometry which the rest of them didn't like

No surprise then that Kimi has been much more comfortable in the car over the last few race weekends.

[COUGAR508]

Originally posted by Louis Mr. F1
As a McLaren fan, I was sad to see Kimi go, I was hoping to see him partnering Alonso, but it turned out pretty good for the silver stable. Even though he's struggling, I still think once Kimi gets things sorted out, he'll be quite a force to reckon and ahead of Massa, the McLaren drivers need to take advantage of Kimi's little slump.

and I've my doubt on the support that he gets from Jean Todt, MAYBE indeed there's an undercurrent power struggle (between Jean & Luca) in the Scuderia that subtlely favours Massa - not sure, just my gut feeling.

What has to be said is that Kimi's current scope for improvement, and his ultimate potential, is far greater than Massa's. The Brazilian is possibly operating at the limit of his abilities right now.

Kimi just needs a break at the moment. A couple of wins and the present furore will be largely forgotten.

[giacomo]

Maybe Raikkonen feels more comfortable in the now modified Ferrari.

The problem is that the modified Ferrari looks slower than before when compared with McLaren.

[HP]

Originally posted by Handwashed
So do we think he'll still be with the scuderia next season?

Jean Todt is leaving instead.

[Peri_Piket]

Too much Karaoke... :

The music relaxed and tammed the beast in Kimi.

His legs are loose.

[Menace]

Originally posted by giacomo
Maybe Raikkonen feels more comfortable in the now modified Ferrari.

The problem is that the modified Ferrari looks slower than before when compared with McLaren.

I think Mclaren disrupted Ferrari's devlopment work more then we are led to know, with the banning of their floor. I still dont understand how Mclaren are allowed to run that front wing, considering the obvious flexing it does. Odd, maybe karma hits them back with the whole Monaco situation.

[as65p]

Originally posted by race addicted


Räikkönen has certainly got what it takes, and that in spades.
Actually Räikkönen proved quicker relative to Montoya than he did to DC, and that when in 2003- and 4 DC had what was probably his worst seasons. Being fair to Montoya the G's P he did in 2006 wasn't exactly what yoy'd expect from him either. It was below par.

I too am of the opinion that he can't suddenly have lost all the abilities we saw from him in recent years.

The only question mark I see is in his relation to the team. IF indeed Massa has a better relationship and standing within Ferrari that will likely be the first time in KR's career that he finds himself in such a situation.

At Mclaren he was always regarded as the no.1 driver, and rightfully so, because he performed better than his teammates. Currently it seems that Massa is in that very same position (and equally rightfully given their relaive performances so far). KR has to recover the ground he lost there. This is certainly psychologically different to what he was used to at Mclaren. It's a different kind of challenge, and we'll see how he handles it.

[Limits]

Originally posted by giacomo
Maybe Raikkonen feels more comfortable in the now modified Ferrari.

The problem is that the modified Ferrari looks slower than before when compared with McLaren.

Interesting observation. Maybe that was a problem for McLaren as well? An oversteery is often slower than a car with more understeer, if the driver can handle it. On the other hand it is said that Hamilton uses very oversteery setups.

I am no expert, but I know that a car that feels fast can very often be slower than the one that feels uncomfortable. And sliding the rear feels faster than sliding the fronts.

[giacomo]

Originally posted by Menace
I think Mclaren disrupted Ferrari's devlopment work more then we are led to know, with the banning of their floor.

That doesn't match Raikkonens rather enthousiastic statements concerning the state of development before the Spain and Monaco GPs.

[klover]

Originally posted by race addicted
Todt has been complimentary about him, and some of their engineers thinks that there's more speed in Räikkönen than it was in Schumacher. It's just about finding that sweet spot.
And when they do....

I'm gonna take Teemu Selanne's words (Menace's sig) and make them mine; "The ketchup bottle is open so we just have to keep pushing. It's hard to get it out, but when it comes, it's going to come and it's going to come a lot."

Just out of curiousity, what is the context of this signature?

[ferrarifanatic]

Originally posted by Menace


I think Mclaren disrupted Ferrari's devlopment work more then we are led to know, with the banning of their floor. I still dont understand how Mclaren are allowed to run that front wing, considering the obvious flexing it does. Odd, maybe karma hits them back with the whole Monaco situation.

The Ferrari's will be back again in Canada. Did you have a look at the testing times when the Paul Ricard circuit was reverted back to Canada Circuit from Monaco one?

Ferrari were almost a second quicker to the Mclarens. So worry not. We will have the dominant performance. Its just the low downforce configuration/Longer wheel base that doesn't suit us at Monaco. I'd be extremely surprised if Ferrari don't demolish Mclaren in Canada and the US.

[schead]

Originally posted by ferrarifanatic


The Ferrari's will be back again in Canada. Did you have a look at the testing times when the Paul Ricard circuit was reverted back to Canada Circuit from Monaco one?

Ferrari were almost a second quicker to the Mclarens. So worry not. We will have the dominant performance. Its just the low downforce configuration/Longer wheel base that doesn't suit us at Monaco. I'd be extremely surprised if Ferrari don't demolish Mclaren in Canada and the US.

Monaco is high downforce, not low. You are right that Ferrari will probably be the fastest car in Canada and the US. The thing is that Ferrari have the inferior drivers, so we will see if it is car or driver that can prevail.

[jimm]

Originally posted by ferrarifanatic


The Ferrari's will be back again in Canada. Did you have a look at the testing times when the Paul Ricard circuit was reverted back to Canada Circuit from Monaco one?

Ferrari were almost a second quicker to the Mclarens. So worry not. We will have the dominant performance. Its just the low downforce configuration/Longer wheel base that doesn't suit us at Monaco. I'd be extremely surprised if Ferrari don't demolish Mclaren in Canada and the US.

Canada yes...I agree, US I am not so sure...it is a wierd circuit that you can set the car up either way and still be fast. Higher downforce makes it harder to pass during the race though.

[Menace]

Originally posted by schead


Monaco is high downforce, not low. You are right that Ferrari will probably be the fastest car in Canada and the US. The thing is that Ferrari have the inferior drivers, so we will see if it is car or driver that can prevail.

Right, so here we have expert schead spreading his wisdom and alrady making excuses if Ferrari wins it all in the end. Brilliant!

[schead]

Originally posted by Menace




Right, so here we have expert schead spreading his wisdom and alrady making excuses if Ferrari wins it all in the end. Brilliant!

Making excuses? Ask any pundit as to who has had the fastest car in 4/5 races thus far, or who is most likely to provide the fastest car in Canada and Indy.

So, we are agreed that Ferrari has had, (apart from Monaco) and probably will have the fastest car in the forseeable future?

Yet the championship shows the following :-

1. Fernando Alonso
2. Lewis Hamilton
3. Fellipe Massa
4. Kimi Raikkonen

So clearly, given the fact that Ferrari have had the fastest car in 4/5 races, for BOTH of the McLaren drivers to be leading BOTH Ferrari drivers proves that McLaren have the better drivers, whilst Ferrari have the fastest car.

As I said, we will see whether it is car or driver that dictates. My personal opinion is that it will be drivers that win. Massa is a solid number 2, and Kimi is just crap, so my take on the WDC is that it will end up just as it is now, with the exception of Nick Heidfeld being #4 instead of Kimi.

[noikeee]

Originally posted by schead


Making excuses? Ask any pundit as to who has had the fastest car in 4/5 races thus far, or who is most likely to provide the fastest car in Canada and Indy.

So, we are agreed that Ferrari has had, (apart from Monaco) and probably will have the fastest car in the forseeable future?

Yet the championship shows the following :-

1. Fernando Alonso
2. Lewis Hamilton
3. Fellipe Massa
4. Kimi Raikkonen

So clearly, given the fact that Ferrari have had the fastest car in 4/5 races, for BOTH of the McLaren drivers to be leading BOTH Ferrari drivers proves that McLaren have the better drivers, whilst Ferrari have the fastest car.

As I said, we will see whether it is car or driver that dictates. My personal opinion is that it will be drivers that win. Massa is a solid number 2, and Kimi is just crap, so my take on the WDC is that it will end up just as it is now, with the exception of Nick Heidfeld being #4 instead of Kimi.

Reliability.