Jump to content


Photo

Fiat S76 (merged)


  • Please log in to reply
360 replies to this topic

#101 Patrick Fletcher

Patrick Fletcher
  • Member

  • 758 posts
  • Joined: February 04

Posted 17 November 2007 - 13:18

What a superb sense of timing Ivan - pajeros = [w.... ] so is that why they called them a different name in the US.
Now back to Armidale

Advertisement

#102 Ivan Saxton

Ivan Saxton
  • Member

  • 66 posts
  • Joined: January 07

Posted 17 November 2007 - 22:31

You will find S76 pictures of car and both sides of engine in the Antique Car Club of America discussion forum. You should get it with http://forums.acca.org Open "General Discussion" section, and at this date the thread titled "S76 300hp" is on page 19. Post numbers 416468, -69,-70 have links to the images. Quality is not great, but you can see what the gentleman should have.
Ivan Saxton

#103 robert dick

robert dick
  • Member

  • 1,136 posts
  • Joined: October 02

Posted 18 November 2007 - 17:27

- In "The Australian Motorist", T. Alberione wrote: "... Transmission is by chains, and, as you may imagine, for such a power there are not many gear-speed changes; there are only two, and reverse. ...";

- Tito Anselmi quotes four speeds in his "Automobili Fiat" book;

- in Fiat's "Rivista Illustrata Mensile"/no. 9/1914, Arthur Duray wrote: "... To engage first, second or third gear is relatively easy, but when it comes to engage fourth whilst travelling at 190 km/h, that is a different story. ..."

Two gearboxes - or two cars???

#104 Ray Bell

Ray Bell
  • Member

  • 66,452 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 18 November 2007 - 18:26

An interesting find, Robert...

Does it say anything about the car being in Australia?

#105 robert dick

robert dick
  • Member

  • 1,136 posts
  • Joined: October 02

Posted 20 November 2007 - 10:21

Originally posted by Ray Bell
Does it say anything about the car being in Australia?

Based on the photos, I would say that Fiat assembled only one monster.
It was rectified and polished, and, some day, it received a modified gearbox.

I'm still waiting for a (contemporary) photo showing two monsters side by side. :cool:

#106 Ivan Saxton

Ivan Saxton
  • Member

  • 66 posts
  • Joined: January 07

Posted 20 November 2007 - 13:28

I have spoken to several relevant people on the phone to double-check on my memory. It is good, much better than my typing which leaves a few spelling errors when I have been writing too long to correct thoroughly.
Barry Vinen was one of Stuart Middlehurst's friends for a very long time; but also was employed by him at the Laundry, so he saw the Lion Peugeot when it came. It was indeed as I said, except there is a possibility that Stuart may have got a couple of early RW wheels with it, the same centres as Alfonso Hispano. Tyere were no axles. Stuart gathered quite a lot of these wheels over the years, and I know where many came from. Arthur Lang and I picked up the chassis frame and axles of a 1911 Lancia from the Wilby football ground with only three wheels and hubs left on it. When that Lancia became mine I had to aquire my own wheel centres for it. Anyway, what axles are with the Peugeot chassis Lord alone knows: But it is reasonable to use what will fit unless you try to convince peole they are correct if they are not.
OK, if you look at the wheels on S76, and then at the size used on Alfonso, Lancia, and T-head Austins, it is obvious that the statement that S76 had same as the others, involves what my theoetical astrophysicist son would descrbe as "a gross anomoly of scale". (Arising from one of his obsessioal interests as a child, Curtis was contracted to author books on spacecraft in the final two in a series of films in a series that was very popular. Of course, when he identified anomolies of scale during production, they were able to correct them in the films because it only required computer graphics adjustment; but unfortunately you cannot do that with Rudge Whitworth wheel sizes.)
Those early RW wheels have two spline types. The Alfonso ones are the same size with the same fine splines as the vintage 62mm. The later 62's would fit if you could hold them on. There was also a similar type fine spline 80mm, which Wolsely sometimes used. The other type had six flat key-like splines. Napier used these consistently, but the very earliest as on Arthur Lang's 1907 6 cyl 40hp T20 were held on with brass nuts. They were quite different, and it is a very long time since I looked at them, but I fancy there was some ratchet lock to stop them falling off. Hub size and key size were constant. Very few really big cars had a larger version , which I believe were those on the S76. I bought the front axle from a huge 6 cyl sleeve valve Daimler from Hughes wrecking yard in Coburg. This must have been a wondrous place in earlier times. They even used the 6 1/2 litre Bentley that Jack Nelson later owned, for ages, as a tow truck. Now I was always welcome there, and allowed to wander round at look for vintage stuff; but a few people tried to pilfer stuff, and from then, most had a very brief journey in and out the front door. But they knew me from going with my father to war surplus auction sales. They had dealings, and there was a lot of mutual liking and respect. Harold told me the story of the Daimler, because he knew both the fellow who asked his friend to buy for him a good secondhand Rolls or Daimler for him while he was in England, and the friend who bought it for him. Well when the ship came in, as was the custom, the car was taxed separately on the chassis, (not much), the tyres (fair enough), and the body for protection of the local body-building industry. Now as we all know, beauty resides in the beholder, and this car was not exactly what he hoped his friend would find for him. The duty was as high as that body, which could be winched up to expose the chassis for service; so he pulled the pins and dropped the body of one of His Majesty's Daimlers from the edge of the warf into the Yarra, and took the rest home in disgust. Harold said that he later learned that all the body hardware was sterling silver. Eventually he had second thoughts and had a local body made for it.
Anyway, just look at the wheels of S76 in that picture. Those rims are probably 28-30" beaded edge (whatever the size in emus (Ethnic Measurement Units). The loading on their structural integrity must have been extreme at best, so an S76 would really not be an ideal vehicle for a crosscountry race with lots of hills and corners.
Move to the matter of a 90hp Stutz engine in 1924, and what it might have been if it was. Now the engine that would best fit that description would be a 4 cyl detacheable head T-head with 4 valves per cylinder. The detacheable head came out in 1921. They really performed quite well, but sometimes suffered destruction of the transaxle when two gears engaged simultaneously, typically splitting the housing, shearing all the woodruf keys in the gears of the layshaft, and possibly lifting a tooth off the pinion. So more engines have survived than cars. I brought my first Stutz 4 engine home from Moruya on NSW south coast in a light duty EK Holden ute in 1973, about the same time I got about enough to rebuild a tipo 8 Isotta. Very different engine designs,but same year, same displacement, and same power output. Which might be the best engine? I didn't know I had a load in the ute. Everything about the Stutz was short and rigid, and they were not prone to torsional vibration. And you could really make them run on a high compression ratio for high efficiency if you wanted. Just take a look at the engine cross-section of the Isotta Fraschini 1907 Tipo 1 Corsa in Anselmi's book. The piston crowns just about touch the combustion chamber roof. Minoia won the Coppa Florio in one covering 302 miles on 19.8 gallons of petrol!!!!! It is not widely recognised that what Cattaneo did was establish "prior art" of Sir Harry Rickardo's much later "turbulence" combustion chamber for L-heads, though double sided with a T head. Finley Robertson Porter did the same thing exactly with the T head Mercer Raceabouts. Ralph Buckley told me that the compression ratio was about 6 to 1 on the raceabouts, but typically low for a T-head for other types. Morris Burrows insisted I go to meet Ralph when I was over there in 1980. The T-head was in a friend's factory next door, and Ralph said he hadn't run it for 3 or 4 years, and it really needed restoring again. When it started, it was on about one and a half cylinders. "Sticking exhaust valves,we'll have to take them out and fix them". So Ralph gathered the tools required, and we had just started when he was called to the phone. I asked if I should wait till he returned. He said "No; you know what you are doing". I was wiping and tidying the tools when he returned. "Have you finished already?" I said "Yes; you said just to keep pottering along". Mercer started well the second time. Ralph drove it outside, then hung a set of plates from a registered car on it. After a couple of miles he pulled up, and directed me to get in the driving seat. I said "Ralph, when I was at boarding school one of the students had Ken Purdy's "Kings of the Road" and I read it. I never expected to ride in one of these. That is quite sufficient, and I prefer that you should drive". I lost that argument. Ralph gave instructions. "Dont use the footbrake on the driveshaft. If you have to stop, use the handbrake." Never lug the engine, or you can break off the cylinder hold-down flanges. If you slow down, change down. Dont double declutch. You don't need to. Nobody knows why it works: It just does."
Those Hispano Suiza engine drawings are very different to the cars Stuart had. They show four main bearings, inclined valves and rockers, and non-detacheable head. I double checked with Tom Henderson who rebuilt the engine for him. The camshaft was hollow with anti lash dampers, and it operated vertical valves directly. There was detacheable head and three main bearings.
Alan Morgan said he never knew Bob Chamberlain to have anything of an S76. He transferred to chamberlains as an aprentice in about 1940, and remained on Bob's payroll until they finished restoring the cars. One thing he once told me they had to do was very clever. During the war they had to make honeycomb radiators for aircraft. They mde a split die to cast the inside form of the cartridge tubes of Woods metal. They electroplated copper onto these to the required thickness, then melted out the Woods metal in hot water. We can make our own honeycomb radiators at home like that if we wish.
I apologise for any late night spelling errors. Ivan Saxton

#107 Ray Bell

Ray Bell
  • Member

  • 66,452 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 20 November 2007 - 18:46

Keep it coming, Ivan...

You've got to lose your 'New Member' status some time soon! As I'm sure John Medley will say, this is 'Astonishing stuff!'

#108 Ray Bell

Ray Bell
  • Member

  • 66,452 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 20 November 2007 - 20:50

I understand you're trying to contact me, Ivan...

The PMs have been reduced so more can come, but they still don't make it through. Please use either the e.mail button on the top of this post, or e.mail me at: r@ybell.net

#109 Ivan Saxton

Ivan Saxton
  • Member

  • 66 posts
  • Joined: January 07

Posted 21 November 2007 - 16:55

The only fresh information, but not from Neville Roberts himself yet, is that the Lion Peugeot went to France. I spoke last night to Graeme Quinn, who lives near Neville and owns a couple of Stuart's Hispanos. If the alledged FIAT chassis was indeed owned by Stuart, the Lion Peugeot is the only one it could be. Stuart always took many photos, and his son John will have all of them now; though they may not be easy to seach for what you are looking for. I'll also check Des Dillon for what he knows. He only lives about 15 minutes from here. If Stuart did own the chassis, then someone is concealing French letters. I shudder to think of a 28litre engine in that light chassis from a single cylinder car, unless it is part of an attempt to compete for a Darwin Award. I shall keep you posted as I learn more from people with the information.
Regards, Ivan Saxton.

#110 john medley

john medley
  • Member

  • 1,397 posts
  • Joined: November 02

Posted 21 November 2007 - 20:30

I will be talking to Keith Roberts(son of Neville Roberts) this weekend, and will raise this business with him(and, indirectly, with his father)

Ivan, tell us more about the Lion Peugeot.

And can you clarify for me please: are you suggesting that the Lion Peugeot remains were found 'between Armadale and the coast" and that this then attaches the story of this chassis to the story of the alleged S76 chassis?

As Ray Bell has said, your contributions to this thread continue to astonish. Thank you so much for those contributions.

Mention of Graeme Quinn reminds me: I was at Phillip Island a few years ago, to be confronted by Ted Hider Smith who in his inimitable manner started straight in to tell me this story:one alcoholic evening Ted accused Graeme Q that he, Ted, was aware that Graeme had slept with a woman using the persuasive argument that he, Graeme , was Ted Hider Smith. At first Graeme denied all knowledge of this infamy, but then, under Ted's verbal onslaught, said that he had no knowledge or memory of such an event but if it could possibly have happened without his knowledge or memeory then he absolutely and unreservedly apologise to Ted. Ted told me his reply to Graeme was: " Nah, it's OK Graeme. She died last week and left me half a million dollars"

#111 john medley

john medley
  • Member

  • 1,397 posts
  • Joined: November 02

Posted 21 November 2007 - 21:31

I have just spoken to Keith Roberts and am about to ring his father Neville. Keith tells me
- he has photos at home somewhere of the alleged Fiat S76 chassis "cant remember what model number it was, but it was painted red and was in a big container"
-he went to Stuart Middlehurst's clearance sale, bought all sorts of bits and pieces, but noted that the alleged Fiat S76 was no longer there. No-one then seemed to know where it had gone
-his father Neville did own a Lion Peugeot "nearly a complete car",but sold it to France.Keith is adamant that the alleged Fiat S 76 chassis and the Lion Peugeot are two separate entities
- his father was asked several times by Stuart Middlehurst to do work on various of SM's cars
-" someone in now in Tasmania knows a lot about all this..."

#112 john medley

john medley
  • Member

  • 1,397 posts
  • Joined: November 02

Posted 21 November 2007 - 21:32

I have just spoken to Keith Roberts and am about to ring his father Neville. Keith tells me
- he has photos at home somewhere of the alleged Fiat S76 chassis "cant remember what model number it was, but it was painted red and was in a big container"
-he went to Stuart Middlehurst's clearance sale, bought all sorts of bits and pieces, but noted that the alleged Fiat S76 was no longer there. No-one then seemed to know where it had gone
-his father Neville did own a Lion Peugeot "nearly a complete car",but sold it to France.Keith is adamant that the alleged Fiat S 76 chassis and the Lion Peugeot are two separate entities
- his father was asked several times by Stuart Middlehurst to do work on various of SM's cars
-" someone now in Tasmania knows a lot about all this..."

#113 Ray Bell

Ray Bell
  • Member

  • 66,452 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 21 November 2007 - 21:37

Originally posted by john medley
.....And can you clarify for me please: are you suggesting that the Lion Peugeot remains were found 'between Armadale and the coast" and that this then attaches the story of this chassis to the story of the alleged S76 chassis?


This is what he's saying, but he's also saying it was Armidale NSW, which any good teacher would know has an 'i' in the middle of it!

Ted told me his reply to Graeme was: "Nah, it's OK Graeme. She died last week and left me half a million dollars"


That was a very speedy will-reading, John...

How I long for the long nights over the post-race barbecues.

#114 Ivan Saxton

Ivan Saxton
  • Member

  • 66 posts
  • Joined: January 07

Posted 21 November 2007 - 23:25

The Tipo 510 Fiat is red, and was stored in a container at Stuart's place at Camp Hill near Drouin. The colour was similar but brighter than was original on the car. Stuart bought it for 6 pounds from Frank Wild at Heath Hill near Lang Lang. You can probably still distinguish the original registration number painted on the radiator core. The original owner, Paddy Einsiedel, was a bookmaker and racehorse owner who had a property down near there, so Frank told me. I am sorry I can tell you neither registration, chassis, or engine numbers, because it was never important enough to commit them to memory. I can tell you that the third figure of the chassis number on the right front dumbiron spring hanger is "3", and so it is 1923. Michael Sedgwick told me that dating code. My 510S with short chassis and sharply pointed radiator is 1922. Stuart's son John still has the 510, as far as I am aware. Stuart bought the FIAT because it had good Rudge 62 895 x 135 wheels , because he was scratching for wheels for the first Alfonso. He later gave me the threaded bronze adapters he made to use these on the earlier type hubs, in case I needed to use them on the Lancia Delta. As far as I am concerned it is an unlockable flawed concept and I would never use them; but they would be free to anyone who needed them for an aero engined special with mixed system Rudge 62's.
(Wilds had wrecked a Lancia Theta on the property and I bought the steering box and gearbox, but I was never able to trace more of the car.)
510 FIAT was a very nicely made car, and in the same price range as Cadillac out here in the early 1920,s.
There was an internal Lanchester torsional vibration damper. The conrods were milled and drilled to be very light; more , perhaps than I consider really prudent. I have bent and broken examples here. My opinion is not that of a qualified engineer; as my qualification is in Agricultural Science.
I'll leave Ray Bell to follow up on the previous resting place of the Lion Peugeot chassis. Neville Roberts only can tell you what else he might have gathered for it before he disposed of it.

It would be good that an S76 engine should have an authentic reconstruction of the car built around it; and it is highly likely that FIAT may have the drawings for that. That is just what Bob Chamberlain had to do for Samson, though he had to make engineering drawings from Rowledge' design notes. (Then Alan Morgan built the rest to those engineering drawings.) But it is just wrong to use names of esteemed people like Bob and Stuart to dignify something they had no connection with when they are no longer about to answer for themselves. I would like to see an "I am sorry that I have been misled and I have misled everyone, because some of the connections and the 'history' I have quoted are wrong."
Regards, Ivan Saxton

#115 Ray Bell

Ray Bell
  • Member

  • 66,452 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 21 November 2007 - 23:38

Shall I budget two or three days visiting you when I come to Melbourne, Ivan?

Or maybe it should be several visits over some of my coming trips? Sounds like there's a lot there for me to look at and learn about...

#116 Ivan Saxton

Ivan Saxton
  • Member

  • 66 posts
  • Joined: January 07

Posted 22 November 2007 - 11:15

"Two gear changes" means there are three forward speeds, not two. At least only three that he saw used in the circumstances.
You are most welcome, Ray, when and for what time you choose to come. The longer you are here, the more trouble you will have with the elasticity of your memory.

The lady mentioned by Ted must have really been in the grip of the grape if unable to distiguish between Ted Hider-Smith and Our Gracious Quinn.
Pardon my brevity. Regards, Ivan Saxton

#117 Ray Bell

Ray Bell
  • Member

  • 66,452 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 22 November 2007 - 11:37

I would say the lady in question was totally unaware of the identity of either party and thus capable of believing whatever the dastardly liar wanted to tell her...

Of course, the grape might have been at fault there anyway.

John is pursuing other enquiries with Neville Roberts and will duly post his findings.

#118 robert dick

robert dick
  • Member

  • 1,136 posts
  • Joined: October 02

Posted 08 January 2008 - 09:25

The New York Times wrote on 23 July 1911:
"Bob Burman is anxious to race P. Bordino, the celebrated Italian driver, for the world's championship, and has issued a challenge for a match with his 200 horse power Benz. Bordino recently at Saltburn-by-the-Sea, driving a 300 horse power Fiat, lowered the worlds's record for one hour when he traveled 116.13 miles in 60 minutes, or twenty-six miles less than Burman averaged when he dethroned Barney Oldfield.
The record of Bordino eclipses the best performance of any of the foreign pilots with a fast car since Burman took into camp the record of Camile Janatzy (= Camille Jenatzy), who drove his famous kilometer in 16 1-5 seconds at Ostend, and who lowered the record of Oldfield made at Florida. Burman's time was 15.88 seconds.
To bring about a contest between the European and the American, E. A. Moross, the promoter, has issued the following challenge to the F.I.A.T. Company with the hopes of securing a match, to take place in America, that will become the real classic for motoring contests, in fact, nothing less than a match between the world's fastest cars, cars which previous to this time have been confined almost exclusively to record work only. Until the recent Fourth of July meet at Brighton Beach, the Blitzen Benz has always been used for an exhibition car, but Burman, unlike Oldfield, has shown a willingness to use it in open competition. There are many, however, who consider the Blitzen Benz a short-distance car, but in order to get a match with the celebrated foreigner, Burman is willing that the distance of the match be between five miles and one hundred miles, whichever Bordino may elect.
Talking of the match, E. A. Moross who is backing Burman, said: "I desire that Fred J. Wagner be elected to start this event and I further prefer that the first deposit of $2,500 for each driver be paid into his hands. The balance of the wager up to $10,000 to be handled any way that may be suggested consistent with satisfaction to all parties. it will take but little time to negotiate the whole deal."
"If Brighton Beach is selected as the motordrome over which the race shall be run, and this seems the logical battle ground as both the Benz Auto Import Company and the F.I.A.T. Auto Import Company are located in New York City, I would like to see it run on this couse at the Labor Day meet, as Burman is entered with his Benz for that meet, and, further, as the world's record for a mile is held by Burman made at the Brighton Beach Motordrome, when he shattered the mark of De Palma and placed it at 48.72, this proves that the motordrome is as fast as nay track in the United States of the dirt track type, while I also believe that it would insure the largest purse to the winning driver to compete here."
"One clause, however, I insist upon is, that the winner take all, while the forfeit must be deposited the day that negotiations are opened.""

I couldn't find anything else concerning this match race so that I think that it did not take place and that the Fiat S76 was not shipped to the US in 1911.

#119 275 GTB-4

275 GTB-4
  • Member

  • 8,274 posts
  • Joined: February 03

Posted 08 January 2008 - 10:05

Sports Car World Febuary 1967

Posted Image

Advertisement

#120 Tim Murray

Tim Murray
  • Moderator

  • 22,036 posts
  • Joined: May 02

Posted 08 January 2008 - 10:11

Originally posted by robert dick
The New York Times wrote on 23 July 1911:
"Bob Burman is anxious to race P. Bordino, the celebrated Italian driver, for the world's championship, and has issued a challenge for a match with his 200 horse power Benz. Bordino recently at Saltburn-by-the-Sea, driving a 300 horse power Fiat, lowered the worlds's record for one hour when he traveled 116.13 miles in 60 minutes, or twenty-six miles less than Burman averaged when he dethroned Barney Oldfield.

This is incorrect, surely? Bordino's new record at Saltburn was for the flying mile. No-one put more than 100 miles into one hour until Percy Lambert in 1913.

#121 onelung

onelung
  • Member

  • 546 posts
  • Joined: November 07

Posted 08 January 2008 - 10:11

275 GTB-4 ... Oh YES! :clap:

#122 robert dick

robert dick
  • Member

  • 1,136 posts
  • Joined: October 02

Posted 08 January 2008 - 19:42

Originally posted by Tim Murray

This is incorrect, surely?...

Ernie Moross was a - good - promoter. :rolleyes:

#123 Tim Murray

Tim Murray
  • Moderator

  • 22,036 posts
  • Joined: May 02

Posted 08 January 2008 - 22:02

:lol: :lol: :up:

#124 scags

scags
  • Member

  • 405 posts
  • Joined: February 03

Posted 09 January 2008 - 12:45

Never believe ANYTHING in a press release, I know, I write them!

#125 whatisart

whatisart
  • New Member

  • 3 posts
  • Joined: February 08

Posted 17 February 2008 - 16:35

I stumbled across this board searching for information on airship engines (more on that later). Anyway, just wanted to say "it's a small world". I now live back in the UK but for the 1990s I lived in Melbourne and was lucky enough to get to know Brendan Dillon who was mentioned earlier. One of his big projects was a stunning Minerva, which I had the good fortune to be taken for a drive in a few times around the streets of Melbourne – now that always caused a stir! His other project was a Hispano - as mentioned by Ivan. It was all in bits but I'm sure he mentioned it had an aero engine. Maybe I'll drop him a line to see how it's going.

Anyway, my real reason for visiting was to see if anyone could help me establish exactly what FIAT engine would have been used on the North Sea class airships of the Royal Naval Air Service during WW1. All I know is that the would have been 240hp and replaced the Rolls Royce Eagle engines originally fitted to the first airships of this class. I am currently working on a website that focuses on the loss of NS11 in 1919. If you're interested visit: http://web.mac.com/w.../NS11/NS11.html

Once we establish the engine – it would be great to know what cars used it too. Now that would be an interesting article on the site.

There's a shot of the engine on an NS-class airship below.

http://www.flickr.co...@N00/2271849024

Well, hope someone can help.

Thanks

Art


#126 Ivan Saxton

Ivan Saxton
  • Member

  • 66 posts
  • Joined: January 07

Posted 17 February 2008 - 22:20

Your airship engine appears to be a V12, with six outlets to a sweeping exhaust pipe, and one matching from the other side of the engine. I have not got much reference to FIAT aircraft engines.
Brendan has the 30hp Minerva and the second of Stuart's 3litre 4cyl Barcelona Hispano Suizas. His Brother Des has the V8 aero-engined Alfonso chassis, which will do half an hour in twenty minutes. He also has and regularly drives a t35 Bugatti and what was Stuart's third Alfonso project, for which he had to make new crankshaft, conrods, and cylinder block. Ivan Saxton

#127 whatisart

whatisart
  • New Member

  • 3 posts
  • Joined: February 08

Posted 17 February 2008 - 23:36

Ivan – thanks for that info. That gives me a little more to go on - every little helps. One extra accessory on one of the engines on each NS-class airship was a hotplate mounted on one of the exhausts – that was the 'galley'.

#128 antonvrs

antonvrs
  • Member

  • 500 posts
  • Joined: October 02

Posted 18 February 2008 - 02:31

Originally posted by Ivan Saxton
Your airship engine appears to be a V12, with six outlets to a sweeping exhaust pipe, and one matching from the other side of the engine. I have not got much reference to FIAT aircraft engines.
Brendan has the 30hp Minerva and the second of Stuart's 3litre 4cyl Barcelona Hispano Suizas. His Brother Des has the V8 aero-engined Alfonso chassis, which will do half an hour in twenty minutes. He also has and regularly drives a t35 Bugatti and what was Stuart's third Alfonso project, for which he had to make new crankshaft, conrods, and cylinder block. Ivan Saxton

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Actually, it would appear to have 2 sets of three cylinder headers and 2 sweeping exhaust pipes per side.
I love old Fiats!
Anton

#129 robert dick

robert dick
  • Member

  • 1,136 posts
  • Joined: October 02

Posted 18 February 2008 - 18:38

Originally posted by whatisart
There's a shot of the engine on an NS-class airship below.

http://www.flickr.co...@N00/2271849024


The engine on the photo looks like a Fiat A14 - although the Rolls-Royce Eagle was much smaller (Series VIII: V-12, bore/stroke = 114,29/165,09 mm, 359 hp at 1800 rpm, dry weight 926 lbs).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_A.14

The Fiat A14 appeared in experimental form in June 1917. "The Automobile Engineer"/London, October 1918, published a description:
60-degree V12, steel cylinders, bore/stroke = 170/210 mm, SOHC 4-valve head(s), camshafts driven via vertical shaft(s), 2 x 66,5 mm intake valves + 2 x 66,5 mm exhaust valves per cylinder arranged at 25 degree to the cylinder axis, H-section fork type connecting rods, 600 hp at 1500 rpm, 720 hp at 1700 rpm, dry weight 1740 lbs.

Fiat also produced a 240-300 hp engine: the A12, a straight-six with SOHC 4-valve head, 160/180 mm.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_A.12
http://arizonamodels...an/Fiat_A12.jpg

Ernest Eldridge used a Fiat A12 engine in his Fiat Mephisto:
http://cache.viewima...55A1E4F32AD3138

#130 Ivan Saxton

Ivan Saxton
  • Member

  • 66 posts
  • Joined: January 07

Posted 19 February 2008 - 19:08

In LJK Setright's book "The Power to Fly", Appendix 6 is a table of FIAT aero engines from 1908 to 1945. The ones you might also look at are 1918 A15R 325hp V12, and A19 350hp V12 of 1923. These would seem to be in the same range as RR Eagle. It does seem that a lot of technical records have been preserved in Italy, so it may be worth the effort to ask FIAT, if you can find the exact person who knows where to look. Angelo Tito Anselmi has a published book on FIAT which is likely very comprehensive if his book on Isotta Fraschini is any indication. It may also be worth asking Duncan Pittaway for advice on channels of research if you can find him.
Ivan Saxton

#131 whatisart

whatisart
  • New Member

  • 3 posts
  • Joined: February 08

Posted 19 February 2008 - 19:34

This is amazing stuff! Thanks so much Ivan, Robert and Anton. The change-over from RR to Fiat engines would have taken place in 1917/18. All the research I have found says the engine was 240hp too.

Looks like another rich seam of research for me to mine. By the way, what do you think of the site so far?

Peter.

#132 blitzen

blitzen
  • New Member

  • 2 posts
  • Joined: January 08

Posted 20 February 2008 - 01:18

Hello,
I'm new to this forum.
I own two Grand Prix F.I.A.T's a 1910 tipo S-61 (ex. Indy 500 Museum basement) and a 1911 S-74 ( ex. Tetzlaff Santa Monica 1912) and have searched for years for the S-76 that was supposedly sent to Mexico, consequently I have spent a lot of time researching the car. I friend of mine told me of Duncan’s project and I was floored when I saw the photos.
I do not know him, have never met him and have only had 1 telephone call with him. I have no dog in this fight but I do know early F.I.A.T. racecars and can tell you the engine is real and the chassis looks right. Little things that do not show on blueprints look exactly like details on both my cars. I have not viewed the project with my own eyes but if it is a fake it is to a whole new level, think faked moon landing. I am full of lust over the car.

Bill Evans
San Diego, California
wevans@evanshotels.com
619-890-2900

#133 Steve L

Steve L
  • Member

  • 385 posts
  • Joined: October 02

Posted 20 February 2008 - 07:10

Hi Bill,

Welcome to the forum.

It sounds like you own a couple of the most fantastic racing cars!

It would be great if you could post some pictures of them and also any that you have of Duncan's S76 too, please?

#134 Ralf Pickel

Ralf Pickel
  • Member

  • 563 posts
  • Joined: December 05

Posted 21 February 2008 - 11:58

I was asked to post the following by John Hearne via the VSCC Forum - he had problem to sign on to TNF :

"I have something to contribute to the F1 bulletin forum but, have made several attempts to sign on and each time have failed. On the FIAT S76 thread they quote John Tennant's book "Motor Racing the Golden Age" which shows two different S76 FIATS. I have images of both on my workshop wall. They also mention the FIAT tipo 5. I know of an excellent complete gearbox in N.Z. Would you mind posting this information on the S76 thread on my behalf please "

An addition, I have got from John:

"I also meant to mention that there is also a FIAT A12 aero engine in N.Z. . It is the later type as used in "Mephistopheles" "

#135 john hearne

john hearne
  • New Member

  • 1 posts
  • Joined: January 08

Posted 21 February 2008 - 13:49

Just wanting to check that I am now signed up :)

#136 David McKinney

David McKinney
  • Member

  • 14,156 posts
  • Joined: November 00

Posted 21 February 2008 - 13:53

Well done - and welcome :wave:

#137 Ralf Pickel

Ralf Pickel
  • Member

  • 563 posts
  • Joined: December 05

Posted 21 February 2008 - 14:08

Welcome here , too, John.
I am glad, it works now. :clap:

#138 Ivan Saxton

Ivan Saxton
  • Member

  • 66 posts
  • Joined: January 07

Posted 06 March 2008 - 02:52

I am still surprised that Duncan Pittaway hasn't responded to my explanation, so by way of further clarification I have this picture of three different sizes of Rudge Whitworth wheels/hubs. The smallest, measuring just over 4" is the exact size used on Hispano Suiza. Rudge 62mm. (Wheel and hub shown are of and for my 1911 Lancia Delta).

The green wheel is for my 1911 Napier, it's approximately Rudge 80mm size. The larger hub, over 5" on the outside, is from my cuff-vavle Peugeot, it's Rudge 100mm. Even this might not be as large as the hubs on the big Fiat. Stuart Middlehurst simply had no car with anything as large as might have been used on the Fiat S76. As the joint owner with him of various cars over a period of over thirty years, as one who worked and played with these cars with Stuart for all of that time, I can assure everyone that these facts are correct.

I am also sure he had any bent chassis that could be from a big Fiat racing car.

Posted Image

#139 leestohr

leestohr
  • New Member

  • 28 posts
  • Joined: December 06

Posted 07 March 2008 - 04:14

I don't know if this is relevant, but I stumbled across this odd photo of something called the FIAT Submarine, 290hp, in the Des Moines News. This is a newspaper from Aug 28, 1918, state of Iowa, USA. This picture is from an advert for the Iowa State Fair. To be driven by Henderson. Sorry the original picture quality is no better.
Apparently this is a rebodied FIAT used in the IMCA racing circut of the times.

Posted Image

Advertisement

#140 fines

fines
  • Member

  • 9,647 posts
  • Joined: September 00

Posted 07 March 2008 - 09:09

It's the Jay-Eye-See, a TNF search will probably bring up several threads.

#141 leestohr

leestohr
  • New Member

  • 28 posts
  • Joined: December 06

Posted 07 March 2008 - 09:37

You are correct. I had never seen the Jay Eye See described as the FIAT Submarine, momentarily confused me.
Here is a link- http://forums.autosp...ght=jay eye see

#142 Steve L

Steve L
  • Member

  • 385 posts
  • Joined: October 02

Posted 08 March 2008 - 12:50

There is a great period picture of the Fiat S76 here: -

http://www.motoringp...ge=8&fleID=8519

#143 rijdema

rijdema
  • New Member

  • 20 posts
  • Joined: March 08

Posted 08 March 2008 - 13:32

this is all very exciting!

Posted Image

the F.I.A.T. S-47
what racing was all about
George Wingard drove one of these at the Goodwood festival.

#144 Steve L

Steve L
  • Member

  • 385 posts
  • Joined: October 02

Posted 20 March 2008 - 18:26

There are some great pictures of the rebuild in the new "The Automobile" magazine.

Whatever the car is, and wherever it came from - WOW! 'Can't wait to see it run :) !

#145 flat-16

flat-16
  • Member

  • 478 posts
  • Joined: December 04

Posted 08 April 2009 - 21:07

The S76 was one of the most terrifying creations to emanate from any factory


:rotfl:

After clicking on the link in VAR1016's signature and seeing a photo, I tried a search on the S76 and found this immensely entertaining and amusing thread.

In the interim 5 years, has any new information come to light regarding either of the cars' whereabouts? What a pull an S76 would be for a festival!


Justin

#146 VAR1016

VAR1016
  • Member

  • 2,825 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 08 April 2009 - 21:19

Originally posted by flat-16


:rotfl:

After clicking on the link in VAR1016's signature and seeing a photo, I tried a search on the S76 and found this immensely entertaining and amusing thread.

In the interim 5 years, has any new information come to light regarding either of the cars' whereabouts? What a pull an S76 would be for a festival!


Justin


It's difficult: would I die happy just hearing the S76 on full noise, or could I be really greedy and hear a V16 BRM (which was probably just as unmanageable) on full noise as well?

I suppose that the "Old Man" could probably have handled it!

Paul

#147 john medley

john medley
  • Member

  • 1,397 posts
  • Joined: November 02

Posted 18 December 2009 - 01:14

I had a brief conversation with Neville Roberts today, and he untangled a little of this. He insists that it was the Lion Peugeot that crashed down a cutting between Armadale and the coast on its rapid run, and has photos (somewhere!)of the remains down that slope. The chassis of this Lion Peugeot was a long thing easily mistaken for a Fiat. After correspondence with Griffith Borgeson and Serge Pozzoli, Neville sold this chassis to France. Neville says that the car's engine was definitely not an ordinary engine but a serious race motor of the correct bore and stroke(measured when a gudgeon scored the bore!), having six valves per cylinder, of one of the Coupe de L'Auto/voiturette cars(he was not certain about the year, but guessed on the phone at 1906.--- I would guess later). The engine remains in Australia.

#148 Ray Bell

Ray Bell
  • Member

  • 66,452 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 18 December 2009 - 02:06

Which 'Armadale' and which coast, John?

I think we discussed this earlier, wasn't it 'Armidale' in NSW?

#149 Ivan Saxton

Ivan Saxton
  • Member

  • 66 posts
  • Joined: January 07

Posted 18 December 2009 - 12:16

Which 'Armadale' and which coast, John?

I think we discussed this earlier, wasn't it 'Armidale' in NSW?

I can tell you about two more interesting big early FIAT items out here. About 1964 I saw remains of another chain-drive truck on Doug Ferguson's farm at Dartmour, in far western Victoria near the South Australian border and Mt Gambier. There was no engine, but he chain drive transaxle was still there; and if the bornze crankcase truck engine at Hughes Wrecking had still been ther itcould have become a restoreable entity. However, doug decided to clean up the place, and I understand that a lot of it went to scrap, including a pioneer type single cylinder Inter Mogul tractor. The other thing which I never thought to show Ray when he was here (though he may well have run out of memory capacity during the visit). It is a very big FIAT car front axle, which I saved from a derelict dairy farmer's calf trailer about 3 miles from where I live. I now suspect it came from a Tipo 5 car, almost certainlythe same car as the 9 litre side valve engine I used to have. Now the interesting thing I have found is the forging identification on it, "Parke". This almost certainly shows that it was made by Parke Forge; which shows that the car must have been made at the FIAT factory at Poughkeepsie, New York. The crankshaft of one of my cars, I think the Roamer Duesenberg, came from the same maker. I have kept this against the day when someone desperately needs one for a car.
Ivan Saxton

#150 Ray Bell

Ray Bell
  • Member

  • 66,452 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 18 December 2009 - 12:38

Keep it coming, John and Ivan...

Brilliant stuff! So much we don't know about cars in Australia early in the 20th century.