26 replies to this topic

[ry6]

In 1961 Phil Hill won the world championship in the 156 'sharknose'.

Then in 1962 the Ferraris fell behind the British V8 monocoque chassied competition.

It appears that the car used by Ferrari was called a 156 aero.

From what I have read the 'sharknoses' were all scrapped - so was the 156 aero an 'upgrade' or an all new car.

Furthermore, it seems that at the end of 1963 Surtees was driving a monocoque 'aero' and Bandini a 'spaceframer' - is this similar to the a case of the Lotus 24 spaceframe and Lotus 25 monocoque state of affairs.?

[Barry Boor]

I am declining towards senility... but I cannot recall the 1962 cars ever being called Aeros.

IMMSMC the '62 car was pretty well the 1961 car with some mods - until Bandini appeared at the 'Ring with a sharknose-less car.

The Aero came much later, I thought.

[DOHC]

156 Aero was in 1963-64 IIRC. And Ferrari were very late in developing full monocoques. I think this didn't happen until Harvey Postlethwaite designed the 126 in the early 80s. Forghieri had worked with a mix of spaceframe and monocoque, essentially stressed skin on thin frame elements. But perhaps there are several different opionions on how to view his constructions.

[MrMacca]

Yes, the '62 cars were updates of the '61 versions, and the 'non-sharknose' car the appeared at the 'Ring was a further development of the same design with slight changes to the suspension and steering and a lower seating position, apart from the plain nose.

Surtees tested this car at the beginning of '63 and developed it further, so that the pukka '63 cars that appeared at the Int. Trophy were not unlike British spaceframe cars of the time.

The 'Aero' that appeared at Monza '63 was so called because it was akin to aircraft construction, using a light spaceframe as the equivalent of longerons and stringers with a semi-stressed rivetted skin. The British full monocoques just had the folded edges of the rolled panels and fabricated bulkheads rivetted together; the Italians didn't have the 'English wheel' to make their skins.

Ferrari used this construction from '63 to the 80s, although I believe the 1973 tubs ordered from John Thompson were built in the English way; did they then revert to the old way in '75?

The two V6-powered '63 cars were always called 'Aero' to distinguish them from the spaceframe cars, but the term fell out of use with the V8 and flat-12 cars although they used a very similar chassis.

Bandini won the '64 Austrian GP in an 'Aero', and Pedro drove one in NART colours in the US and Mexican GPs.

But what happened to them after that?


Paul M

[Barry Boor]

Broken up, I guess, like everything else (well, almost everything) from that era.

[MrMacca]

But the '63 spaceframe cars survived (one in Ferrari's museum, one at Mulhouse) and so did the '64-'65 158 and 1512s and the 3-litre cars from '66 (other than those destroyed in accidents).

Paul M

[David McKinney]

There was an Aero V6 in the Schlumpf musée last time I looked, and Jacky Seton had an Aero V8 abut 20 years ago

[ry6]

Wow - you gents are quick.

In 1963 Ferrari ran 2 cars in the Rand GP and South African GP for Surtees and Bandini.

They finished 1-2 in the Rand and at the SAGP Bandini was 5th after Surtees fell out.

I understand that 3 cars were brought for the races and the Rand GP winner was a 'monocoque'.

I will try to dig out some photos and ask Marc to post.

Regards

Rob

[Hieronymus]

Seems Marc is taking a nap, so I post on behalf of Robert.



Surtees's car in the pits.

[MrMacca]

The Schlumpf car is one of the '63 spaceframe cars; as well as the Seton car (wherever it is now), the chassis that had a 2.4 V6 fitted in '66 is supposedly the one that Surtees drove at the FoS in 2004, now with a V8 again and American owned; Surtees used to own a 1512 in red, which was auctioned years ago; and another/the other 1512 in NART colours was auctioned recently.

Paul M

[Hieronymus]

The Bandini car looks different.

[MrMacca]

Yes, that's one of the spaceframe cars with outboard front springs.

Paul M

[macoran]

Originally posted by Hieronymus
Seems Marc is taking a nap,

Who ? Me ?

[Hieronymus]

Howzit, Marc!

Apparently Bandini's car was a 156, c/n 0001 and Surtees's a 156 Aero, c/n 0003.

[rl1856]

From what I had read, the late '62 car (Bandini / Germany) was more of a new chassis than a development of the old car. It was lower and more compact, with fewer curved tubes and more advanced suspension geometry. Essentially, the new car was based upon their interpretation of Lotus, BRM and Cooper designs. Additional development occured when Surtees signed on, bringing with him knowledge of contempory English chassis design and the ability to analytically develop a car through testing.

Best,

Ross

[ry6]

Both those pix were taken at the Rand GP 1963.

Marc, I misplaced your email address and so had to use Hieronymous.

Please send it to me again.

Rob

[David McKinney]

Originally posted by MrMacca
The Schlumpf car is one of the '63 spaceframe cars; as well as the Seton car (wherever it is now)

I bow to your greater Ferrari knowledge, Paul
But I noted 0004 as the number of the Schlumpf car and 0006 for Seton's - surely 'Aero' numbers?

[Hieronymus]

Photo by Malcolm Kinsey from Robert's book "Springbok Grand Prix".


1963 Rand GP : Bandini is harried through the slippery Clubhouse Corner by Peter de Klerk (Alfa Special) and John Love (Cooper T55 Climax).

The hot weather wreaked havoc with the engines and fuel pumps of some of the ‘works’ cars and the V8 Lotuses of Clark and Taylor were no match for the Ferraris and the de Klerk/Love duo.

[MrMacca]

Yes, Barchetta has those numbers listed - I'm just going by the appearance of the car, as I've never been to Mulhouse.

http://www.pictchall...A/fermulb2t.jpg

DCN had the numbers for the Aeros in 'Dino' and in 'GP Cars 45-65' which I don't have to hand.

Paul M

[David McKinney]

I don't think I would have got those numbers from Barchetta
Can't swear otherwise though

[Ducfer]

The aero cars did not appear until 1963 to my knowledge

1962 cars were update 156's

1963 - 5 cars used, two with the A (Aero) designation
0001 - 156
0002 - 156
0003 - 156
0003A - 156
0004A - 156B - Schlumpf car

1964 - 8 cars used
0001 - 1512
0003 - 156
0004A - 156
0005 - 158
0006 - 158 - Setton
0007 - 1512 - Obrist
0008 - 1512
0009 - 1512

it seems likely that an 0002 existed, but did not appear in 1964. It would also appear that some of the 1963 cars were updated to be used in 1964. Ferrari then entered the bleak 1965 F1 season.

[Roger Clark]

Does anybody know whether the "spaceframe" within the Aero cars provided any structural rigidity, or was it just a convenient way for Ferrari to build the car? A sort of built-in jig.

Sort of on-topic: in his report on the 1962 Italian Grand Prix, DSJ wrote: There were three brand new cars at the factory with rear suspension like a Lotus, but a major error had been committed in copying the geometry and there was not time to correct it, so these cars had to be left behind." Was this true?

[Macca]

I read that bit by DSJ, Roger, and wondered at it; perhaps someone was having him on........

Ferrari chassis numbers are not made easier to understand by his using the same number more than once; Ed McDonagh has the Sharknose cars numbered 0001-4 and 6-9 with 0008 being the '62 experimental car; but the 1960 rear-engined prototype was also numbered 0008.

DCN in 'History of the GP Car 45-65' has the '63 cars as 0001-3, the Aero V6 cars as 0003a and 0004a, and the new 1964 V8 cars as 0005 and 0006 with the flat-12s as 0007-9. Maybe 0001 was a misprint? The Schlumpf car is certainly a spaceframe, so maybe it has the wrong ID plate.

The photo of a 1970 312B frame on the surface plate indicates that the tubes were mainly a jig for the skins; the only tube that looks like a diagonal is actually a curved support for the side fuel tank.

David - sorry, didn't mean the Seton car was a spaceframe, only that it was one of the V8 survivors ; nor that you picked up the Barchetta numbers (more likely the other way round!)

Paul M

[Roger Clark]

Originally posted by Macca
I read that bit by DSJ, Roger, and wondered at it; perhaps someone was having him on........

Possibly, but DSJ wasn't usually prone to fall for that sort of thing. In any case, who might it have been? The story doesn't exactly show Ferrari in a good light: " we tried to copy Lotus but were too incompetent..."

[Ray Bell]

Maybe someone should ask Phil Hill...

Recall that he was pretty disenchanted with Ferrari by this time. About to leave them, it's surely possible he told Jenks that.

[Hieronymus]

I post on behalf of Robert.



(Picture by Malcolm Kinsey from Springbok Grand Prix)


This pic shows Bandini during the 1963 SAGP at East London leading McLaren (Cooper) and the BRM’s of Ginther and Hill.

Is this the same Ferrari as he drove in the earlier Rand GP?


It looks a different certainly the ‘nose’. But then bodywork is easily interchangeable.



At the time we were told that Ferrari had brought 3 cars.

[starlet]

Ferrari had indeed brought 3 cars for the Rand & the SA GPs. Two Aero - c/n 0001 & 0003 - and a spaceframe car, c/n 0001.
East London being of course the more important race, only Surtees drove the Aero at Kyalami, Ferrari holding back the second one only as a spare car. That's why Bandini raced the spaceframe car there.
For the SA GP, both drivers had the Aero, but not the expected results...