75 replies to this topic

[neville mackay]

One issue has always interested me and I don't think I've ever seen it addressed on TNF or anywhere else for that matter.

The Birel was a direct copy of Ron Tauranac's Brabham BT18.

Clint Brawner copied another Tauranac design for his Hawk.

Countless Watson style Roadsters were direct copies of AJ's original masterpiece.

We are not talking of "derived from" or "inspired by". These were blatant cribs, exact in every detail.

So: what other examples can you come up with? And why was there no attempt to protect the intellectual property rights of the original design? Did people simply turn a blind eye to such goings on, did the original designer get a royalty fee, or is there another explanation?

[alansart]

My PRS RH01 was a copy of a Crossle (so I am told).

I must admit there are now Crossle spec parts on my PRS.

[MCS]

In recent memory, the Shadow / Arrows situation in 1978 would probably qualify.

Although, of course, I would stop short of using the word "stealing"

[Vitesse2]

Louis Coatalen's 1923 Sunbeams were a blatant copy of an earlier Fiat design, so much so that they were known as Fiats in green paint. Coatalen didn't make the mistake of trying to "improve" them either, his motto being "It is a wise man who copies without altering".

And IIRC at least one of Sam Tingle's LDS cars was a Brabham clone.

[Ray Bell]

Ronnie Peterson's father built a Brabham replica...

When introduced to the car, Jack Brabham's reaction was far from negative, he told me. Brabhams were being copied in droves those days, Bob Britton did many copies with the full knowledge of Brabham and Tauranac.

[paulsenna1]

Originally posted by alansart
My PRS RH01 was a copy of a Crossle (so I am told).

I thought the PRS RH01 resembled the Hawke DL15/17/19 series of cars after Vic Hollman left Hawke to form PRS.

[bschenker]

By the Italian constructions its can concern also an original car. Seen personally a brand new Brabham, believes a BT18, was provided with a new frame number. Additionally provide with Decals, which proved it’s as Wainer. This car went, in place of something with a certain similarity to a racing car, to Italy.


.

[Ray Bell]

Bob Jane did that as well...

[neville mackay]

I think the Arrows/Shadow situation was probably one of those rare occasions when a designer was guilty of stealing his own ideas.......

[Roger Clark]

Originally posted by Vitesse2
Louis Coatalen's 1923 Sunbeams were a blatant copy of an earlier Fiat design, so much so that they were known as Fiats in green paint. Coatalen didn't make the mistake of trying to "improve" them either, his motto being "It is a wise man who copies without altering".

And didn't he say that when accused of copying a Peugeot?

[MoMurray]

Just as an aside...but I think the Hawke DL15 and the PRS RH01 were two of the best looking FF cars ever.

Mo

[RA Historian]

Besides the "Brawner Brabhams" mentioned by Neville in the first post, there have been numerous other Indy car copies. Some that come to mind are the Eagle clones by Grant King; the Penske PC-7 copies by various, including AJ Watson; and copies of the late 70s Lightning.

Then there was the Penske PC-3, a near copy of a March 751, and the Penske PC-5, a copy of a McLaren M-24.

Lots more, as I would imagine subsequent posts will point out.

Tom

[alansart]

Originally posted by paulsenna1


I thought the PRS RH01 resembled the Hawke DL15/17/19 series of cars after Vic Hollman left Hawke to form PRS.

They do look similar but are totally different. I think the DL19 has inboard front suspension for example.

I did Formula E in the 80's including the Kirkistown races. Before we got the Ferry home, John Crossle would open his workshops for us all to have a look around. It was one of his guys who said the PRS was a Crossle copy.

[bill patterson]

Allegedly the first Van Dieman FFord chassis closely resembled that of the Lotus 69 FFord but used round instead of square for the longitudinal chassis tubes............

[ensign14]

Much of this is not "stealing" but "copying". Stealing would be what those (now ex-) Toyota employees did regarding Ferrari.

There are intellectual property rights but I'm not an expert in the area and it gets complicated by the fact that there may only be one way of doing things right. A number of the 60s F1 cars looked pretty alike cos convergent evolution meant that was the way to do it.

Of course Shadow successfully injuncted Arrows to prevent them using the FA1, cos Southgate's Shadow designs belonged to Shadow, but if Mr Zerokeel leaves McLaren for Ferrari there's nothing to stop him from using info he happens to have in his mind as part of his general experience for his new employer.

[MCS]

Originally posted by alansart
...It was one of his guys who said the PRS was a Crossle copy.

Definitely a copy, but I can say no more.

[alansart]

Originally posted by MCS


Definitely a copy, but I can say no more.

John Crossle didn't seem bothered.

As Ensign says most cars include ideas from others.

At one time I spent a bit of time in the R&D dept at VW in Wolfsburg. I was quite surprised to see a new Jag and Renault in there. They were to be stripped down to see how they were put together.

[MrMacca]

There were quite a few copies of Lotus 29/34/38 Indycars which caused Andrew Ferguson some hard work for the WATN in his book; also Granatelli built some Lotus 56 copies for 1969 with Offy and Plymouth engines.


Paul M

[WHITE]

Was not the Fittipaldi F5 from 1978 a recreation of the Ensign from 1977, both designed by david Baldwin ?

Was not the pyramid shape, introduced in the Parnelli VPJ in 1972 for the USAC championship, by Maurice Phillippe, copied later by several F1 teams ? ( Brabham, BRM, Surtess )

[ian senior]

The Narval JC3 Formula 3 car from 1972 was based very much on the Brabham BT35, and was rumoured to use some actual BT35 parts in its construction. Not entirely surprising, as its creator Bernard Lagier was a Brabham agent in France.

And what about all those so-called "Chinese McLaren" Indycars in 1972, that may or may not have been a direct crib of the M16?

[MCS]

Chinese McLarens ??

Pray tell Ian!

[barrykm]

In South Africa, Doug Serrurier's LDS cars were outwardly pretty good copies of Brabhams, and as stated in past threads, Black Jack was apparently not too pleased.

[raoul leDuke]

Wasn't the straight 4 twin overhead cam Peugeot engine, designed by Les Charlatan, Paulo Zuccarelli and Ernest Henry, and used by Jules Goux to win the Indy 500 in 1913 copied by Harry Miller amongst others?

Actually I think the Peugeot was first copied by the Indianapolis management and called the Premier. One of these copies won the race in 1919. The double overhead camshaft engine was then copied by Harry Miller when he designed his Miller-Offenhausers.

And were not a pair of Miller's engines then the basis of the Bugatti Type 51 straight eight twin-cam?

[ian senior]

Originally posted by MCS
Chinese McLarens ??

Pray tell Ian!

Not really from the Orient, but American, of course. I remember an article in Motoring News in 1972 about a whole raft of new cars that were considered to be a direct crib of the succesful McLaren from 1971. Presumably called "Chinese" because of the way the Chinese copied other people's designs, not just in cars (although they are still doing it....).

Indy isn't my strong point, so I can only remember the name of one of them, the Kingfish.

[Huw Jadvantich]

Lotus Sevens, the world over, Mallock U2s were copied in NZ, Many 'Coopers' were built in NZ, as was the odd Brabham, and many cars built from Mclaren bits.

[Sharman]

Come to France- anything offered for sale which has 2 seats and no boot is described as a Lotus. My lad is thinking about selling his Westfield, he was talking about £6000 but there is a Robin Hood advertised here for €15000. I think I might enjoy the trip from Cheshire to the Aude in a 150 brake roller skate.

[David McKinney]

Originally posted by Huw Jadvantich
Mallock U2s were copied in NZ, Many 'Coopers' were built in NZ, as was the odd Brabham, and many cars built from Mclaren bits.

As I understand it, most NZ U2s were built under licence. And I don't know of any NZ Cooper or Brabham 'copies' built in period

[Ray Bell]

Didn't the Bryan Faloon Tasman car come from the Brabham factory in Britto's back yard?

[David McKinney]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
Didn't the Bryan Faloon Tasman car come from the Brabham factory in Britto's back yard?

Faloon's Tasman Brabham was a Brabham
The Rorstan-Climax which he later drove did however come from the source you mention

[Ray Bell]

And the Rorstan Porsche...

Which Brabham did he drive?

[RA Historian]

Originally posted by ian senior


Not really from the Orient, but American, of course. I remember an article in Motoring News in 1972 about a whole raft of new cars that were considered to be a direct crib of the succesful McLaren from 1971. Presumably called "Chinese" because of the way the Chinese copied other people's designs, not just in cars (although they are still doing it....).

Indy isn't my strong point, so I can only remember the name of one of them, the Kingfish.

Grant King, who did indeed have Chinese blood in him, built the Kingfish cars, which were direct copies of McLarens and Eagles of the day. I suspect that is where the term originated, as I recall the Kingfish Eagle copy frequently referred to as the "Chinese Eagle".

[Tom Glowacki]

There was the Atlanta, which was an M16 copy, built, if i recall correctly, by ex-McLaren employees. Similar to the Shadow-Arrows situation, Lotus 38- 1966 Eagle, with Len Terry, and the late 1979's Coyotes and Wildcats, both designed by Bob Riley.

[petefenelon]

Do "designs that were done for someone else" count? If so, Lotus 107/unraced Chris Murphy March, Tyrrell 008/whatever Maurice P. was working on before...

Benetton B196/Ligier JS41?;)

[MoMurray]

Originally posted by alansart


They do look similar but are totally different. I think the DL19 has inboard front suspension for example.

Oh I didn't mean to imply they were close to each other, just that each individually is a rather pretty car.

[David McKinney]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
And the Rorstan Porsche...

And the Stanton-Porsche too. But neither pretended to be a Brabham

Originally posted by Ray Bell
Which Brabham did he drive?

The ex-Stillwell BT4, in 1968 and 1969

Getting back to an earlier comment, one of the Rorstan Team's Brabhams did get a replacement Britton frame, but that's not the same things as a complete new car

[Pikachu Racing]

Toyota ripping off Ferrari F2002 and failed horribly. To this day they still couldn't build a car and enging without getting/stealing info from third parties.

[Mistron]

The Piers Courage book talks of 'tom the weld' building Lotus F3 chassis to order.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by David McKinney
And the Stanton-Porsche too. But neither pretended to be a Brabham


The ex-Stillwell BT4.....

Ironically, the Stanton Porsche was, I believe, built on a jig made from another Stillwell chassis. Bob made up this jig when he had the car in to build a new rear to take the Repco V8.

I think I have a bunch of photos of that chassis, actually...

[petefenelon]

There's the persistent tale of one 60s manufacturer knocking off blueprints of another's car which they'd sent to a model kit maker.... only problem is nobody's Been Really Precise about who it was... but I've heard rumours ;)

[Bonde]

There were many 500cc F3 cars built very much along Cooper lines (large diameter tubes, little to no triangulation, some curved, Fiat 500 Topolini-derived running gear and suspension, though the only 'fully faithful' copy that I know of is the Danish Alfa-Dana. You really need to be an expert to tell it from a Mk VIII Cooper.

Tyrrell 009 and Williams FW07 were very, very similar to the Lotus T79, and the Arrows A5 was near-identical to the Willams FW08. All of the above so similar that I would call them copies, even if not 100% identical to the original, er, source of inspiration.

It is interesting to note, that the cars that seem to have been copied more than any others are the spaceframe Ron Tauranac Brabhams. I think there's a message in there outlining Tauranac's greatness as a designer...

Didn't someone once say that plagiarism is the sincerest form of flattery?

[RA Historian]

I seem to recall a story about the introduction of the Tyrrell 009. The journos came into the room and one of them supposedly said, "oh, look at the blue Lotus!"

[TonyCotton]

Originally posted by Bonde
I think there's a message in there outlining Tauranac's greatness as a designer...

RT2 became Toleman became Lola T850?

I didn't understand all that, and judging by Mike Lawrence's book, neither did RT

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by TonyCotton


RT2 became Toleman became Lola T850?

I didn't understand all that, and judging by Mike Lawrence's book, neither did RT

...which also begat Docking-Spitzley DS-1 and Roman/SPA-Hart, if I'm not mistaken?

[stevewf1]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
When introduced to the car, Jack Brabham's reaction was far from negative, he told me. Brabhams were being copied in droves those days, Bob Britton did many copies with the full knowledge of Brabham and Tauranac.

Back in the "good old days", there was a saying: "Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery"...

Certainly not true anymore...

[Mark A]

I know it's not motorsport but it's a huge problem in the road car industry at the moment with the Chinese.

Here are a couple of pics of Chinese cars which look very similar to other vehicles.

X5 anyone


This isn't a smart car, Really!


Honda CRV and the illegitimate offspring.

[stevewf1]

Originally posted by Mark A
I know it's not motorsport but it's a huge problem in the road car industry at the moment with the Chinese

Off-topic, but I saw this in the Indianapolis Star the other day...

http://www.indystar....D=2007706150449

[petefenelon]

Weren't at least some of the LDSs built with the consent of Black Jack? - seem to recall reading somewhere (DCN '66-'85?) that one of the later LDS cars was built with Brabham's knowledge and even assistance after Serrurier failed to get hold of the last BT11 (The earlier ones were, er, 'inspired' by Coopers were they not?)

[TonyCotton]

Originally posted by petefenelon


...which also begat Docking-Spitzley DS-1 and Roman/SPA-Hart, if I'm not mistaken?

Aha! Pete, you fell into my trap!

The Roman had different front and rear geometry, a modified tub, didn't use the ally sponsons and had different rear uprights on a totally different rear suspension layout. The Roman designers (there were several) also discovered that when somebody (not Rory Byrne) at Toleman narrowed the track, they totally messed up the geometry.

[Manfred Cubenoggin]

Bob McCallum out of the Toronto area ran off virtual carbon-copies of Crossle 32's in the late 1970's, early 80's and christened the marque, Pulsar. Frame, bodywork, suspension...all direct knockoffs. There were some slight 'enhancements', tho, in that the body panels were of thinner guage for light weight, you could specify 4130 chrome moly for the suspension links for ditto and the frame had a removeable rear bulkhead held with four bolts...a considerable improvment over the static assembly of the standard Crossle which was all too damage prone. The cars had some minor impact; the funding from the sale of the Pulsars largely backed McCallum's Tsunami project for FF.

[Mazilles]

Originally posted by petefenelon
There's the persistent tale of one 60s manufacturer knocking off blueprints of another's car which they'd sent to a model kit maker.... only problem is nobody's Been Really Precise about who it was... but I've heard rumours ;)

In the early 80s Colin Chapman gave a set of plans of one of the ground effect Lotus to Ken Tyrrell's son to take to Japan to give to a model manufacturer. The next year's Tyrrell was uncannily similar to the plans. Chpaman was quoted in either Motor Sport or Motoring News about it!