41 replies to this topic

[Ray Bell]

It's well known that Buick's compact car of the early sixties, the 'Special', was introduced with a 215ci alloy V8 engine...

It's also well known that a cast iron 90° V6 replaced that engine.

It's come to my attention that several websites, virtually all that google up on the first page, state that the V6 was based on the architecture of the alloy V8. One I read also says that the 4-cyl Pontiac 195 engine was available as an alternative in all BOP compacts.

Both of these 'facts' go against my recollection. But I'm here to have my recollections corrected if needs be.

My memory tells me that the V6 was simply the Buick iron V8 with two cylinders left out. This also agrees with the logic of it all, as a V6 with similar cylinder size to the alloy V8 would have been only about 170ci at best before major changes were needed.

I also recall that the Pontiac was the one that got the Pontiac 4 and that was the end of it.

So who actually knows or remembers?

[McGuire]

The Buick 90 degree V6 was built on the architecture of the 215 BOP aluminum V8. Same bore spacing, timing cover scheme, etc. There were two versions of the BOP V8: Buick and Olds. They difffer in combustion chamber layout, number of head bolts and a few other features, but otherwise they are very similar. The Buick V6, with an initial displacement of 198 CID, was built on the Buick version of the BOP V8.

In 1964 Buick introduced a 300 CID version of the 215 BOP V8, which was later enlarged to 340 and then 350 CID. This engine has a cast-iron block but is not related to the Buick nailhead V8 or the 400/455 "big block" Buick V8, owing all its architecture to the BOP V8. (And in the first year and a half or so it used aluminum cylinder heads.) And except for the number of cylinders, it is strikingly similar to the V6 in appearance and key specs. That may be the source of the story that the V6 is "based on" cast-iron Buick V8. In reality the aluminum V8 came first, then the V6, then the iron V8, all based on the same design and tooling.

Of course, in 1966 the V6 engine was sold to Jeep, while the BOP V8 went to Rover. (Then in 1975 GM bought back the engine from Jeep, then continued production for several more decades, with constant revisions -- this is the 3800 V6 of song and story.) Meanwhile the cast-iron 350 CID variant of the BOP V8 was continuously produced by Buick into the late 1970s. Pretty decent engine... very quiet, smooth and reliable, if short on performance potential.

The 195 CID Pontiac "slant four" was no more nor less than a 389 CID Pontiac V8 with the left cylinder bank lopped off. It was offered only in the Pontiac Tempest, with the BOP V8 as the performance option. Olds F-85 and Buick Special got the BOP V8 or the V6, while in the Olds a turbocharged version of the BOP V8 was available.

There is a reason for these goofy L4 and V6 engine configurations in the early Olds, Buick and Pontiac compacts. They shared their floor pan with the rear-engined, unit-construction Corvair and there wasn't really room up front for an inline six. In 1964 GM went to body-on-frame construction for the A-body, with room for virtually any powerplant.

[phantom II]

Hey, where have you been? I'ts been quite around here with you MIA. Very nice story.When GM got the V6 back, all the tooling was bolted into the same hard points on the floor they vacated 8 years before. The Buick V8 lasted 'till 2002 in the Range Rover albeit, not in its original form. That's a stroy that needs to be told. The 3.8V6 will be replaced after the current model cycle of Impala.

Originally posted by McGuire
The Buick 90 degree V6 was built on the architecture of the 215 BOP aluminum V8.

Of course, in 1966 the V6 engine was sold to Jeep, while the BOP V8 went to Rover. (Then in 1975 GM bought back the engine from Jeep, then continued production for several more decades, with constant revisions .

[Engineguy]

I think this is all of 'em... from Buick/GM at least... Rover/BL made a couple more displacement variations of aluminum V8, but only sent the 215 (3.5L) to the US.

All with 4.24" bore centers...

215 V8 3.500" bore x 2.800" stroke (8.960" deck ht, 5.66" rod) 1961-1963

198 V6 3.625" bore x 3.200" stroke (9.535" deck ht, 5.96" rod) 1962-1963
225 V6 3.750" bore x 3.400" stroke (9.535" deck ht, 5.96" rod) 1964-1967

300 V8 3.750" bore x 3.400" stroke (9.543" deck ht, 5.96" rod) 1964-1967
340 V8 3.750" bore x 3.850" stroke (10.19" deck ht, 6.39" rod) 1966-1967
350 V8 3.800" bore x 3.850" stroke (10.19" deck ht, 6.39" rod) 1968-1981

231 V6 3.800" bore x 3.400" stroke (9.535" deck ht, 5.96" rod) 1975-1987
196 V6 3.500" bore x 3.400" stroke (?????" deck ht, ????" rod) 1978-1979
252 V6 3.965" bore x 3.400" stroke (?????" deck ht, ????" rod) 1980-1984
181 V6 3.800" bore x 2.660" stroke (?????" deck ht, ????" rod) 1982-1988
231 V6 3.800" bore x 3.397" stroke (?????" deck ht, ????" rod) 1984-200-

[Ray Bell]

What, then of the chronic shortfall in port size that the 215 had? I know the exhaust ports were really small, or at least the end ones were... did they redesign the heads to overcome this?

I guess the problem originated in some kind of restriction that the design had?

[Greg Locock]

For my sins I worked on a diesel conversion of the 'Rover' V8. Nasty. Very nasty.

[ray b]

3.8 = old V6 final form a turbo used in GN and GNX also used in indy cars almost all RWD
menard based 3.8 indy motor very fast but...
3800 new motor almost no parts swap shares old size and 90 deg v6 form almost all FWD

3800 series 1 2 and 3 no turbo but stock supercharged top model
favored swap into fiero's esp in supercharged form
as it bolts in eazy with a few mods/swaps tight fit but fit it does

btw there was also a short lived turbo 215 alloy v8 in about 62

buick had by far the most different V8's motors
3 or four very diffent 350 motors
final 455 series 1 was a monster in 1970 form
lite and very powerfull

[Ray Bell]

And your answer to the original question, ray b?

Any more about port sizes, by the way?

[Catalina Park]

Ray, do you remember that Leyland Australia was working on a P76 Motor with 2 cyl removed to make an alloy V6 when they closed Zetland?

[Bob Riebe]

In the seventies, hot rod magazines often mentioned that the best way to cheaply get better performance of the the BOP engine, was to use the crankshaft, and heads off of the first iron block version to get better breathing alloy engine of over 300 inches.

Of course at that time the heads and crank were much easier to find.
Bob

[ray b]

I DONOT KNOW HOW THE BUICK 3.8 CAME TO BE
or if it was 3/4 of a v8 but the chevy motor was

BTW GM had two V6 3.8s the buick and a chevy in production in the 80's
last RWD malibu had both sometimes in it's run
because the parts guys would ask what motor the car had

they still build the chevy v6 in 4.3 size and that motor was 3/4 of the old chevy small block V8
used in trucks and boats currently and some race classes too or did anyway

sorry no idea on port size eathor

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Catalina Park
Ray, do you remember that Leyland Australia was working on a P76 Motor with 2 cyl removed to make an alloy V6 when they closed Zetland?

I only found out about that project through the wonders of the internet, actually...

[Engineguy]

A lot of 215 family information, history, interchange, tips, etc. at http://www.aluminumV8.com the website for D & D Fabrications.

This is the same company I got a conversion kit from 32 years ago to put a Buick 215 in my autocross Vega. They're still at it, though mostly involved in MGB 215 conversions now (Vega kits still available if you can find a decent Vega).

"D & D Fabrications, Inc. specializes in the Buick/Olds/Rover "215" aluminum engine. With over 30 years' experience with the "215", we have built and modified almost every aspect of this incredible motor. We"ve also stockpiled a vast array of standard and performance parts. So whether you're looking to restore your "215" to its original pristine glory, or build a fire-breathing performance mill, chances are 98 times out of 100 we'll have the part you're looking for on the shelf!"

[275 GTB-4]

Originally posted by ray b
I DONOT KNOW HOW THE BUICK 3.8 CAME TO BE
or if it was 3/4 of a v8 but the chevy motor was

BTW GM had two V6 3.8s the buick and a chevy in production in the 80's
last RWD malibu had both sometimes in it's run
because the parts guys would ask what motor the car had

they still build the chevy v6 in 4.3 size and that motor was 3/4 of the old chevy small block V8
used in trucks and boats currently and some race classes too or did anyway

sorry no idea on port size eathor

How did they increase capacity from 3.8 to 4.3 ray b?? Bore or stroke??

[phantom II]

Completely different engines. The 4.3 was derived from the Gen 1 Chevy small block and the 3.8 from a Buick V8. The 4.3 shares rods pistons, bore centers, timing gears, chains oil pump, front and rear seals etc. with the Chevy V8. It is probably the most dependable engine in the world and has been the base engine in Chevy and GMC trucks for many years. It is in the 08 line up also. Many after market race parts also. The TB injection has improved over the years and it is a powerful economical engine also. Both engines have been in production since the early 60s.

Originally posted by 275 GTB-4


How did they increase capacity from 3.8 to 4.3 ray b?? Bore or stroke??

[phantom II]

http://en.wikipedia....iki/Buick_Regal All these Buicks have the 3.8 engine. Check out the Turbo Grand Sport.

http://www.gmhightec..._truck_feature/ High 12s in the 1/4

http://en.wikipedia....iki/GMC_Typhoon 4.3 V6

http://www.chevrolet...oclassic-2500HD 4.3 V6

http://www.chevrolet...?seo=goo_impala 3.8 V6

http://en.wikipedia....Chevrolet_Astro 4.3 V6 The AWD version was the best mini van ever.

http://www.budgetfor...CFQJWgQodMx7vBA 4.3 forklift engine.

Volvo Penta marine engines many models are Chevy V8s and 4.3 V6s under liscence.

Originally posted by 275 GTB-4


How did they increase capacity from 3.8 to 4.3 ray b?? Bore or stroke??

[Engineguy]

Actually, Capt. b, there was a real (SBC based) Chevy 3.8L V6, in addition to Chevrolet's use of the Buick V6. It was 229 cubic inches as opposed to the 231 Buick.

The Chevy 4.3L is, with its 4" bore and 3.484" stroke, truely a shortened version of the venerable 350 SBC... the 3.3L and 3.8L Chevy V6s are just reduced bore size versions of the 4.3L... and they actually preceded it.

Chevrolet "SBC" 90° V6s... all with 4.4" bore spacing...

200 (3.3L) V6 3.500" bore x 3.484" stroke (9.025" deck ht, 5.70" rod) 1978-1979
229 (3.8L) V6 3.736" bore x 3.484" stroke (9.025" deck ht, 5.70" rod) 1980-1984
262 (4.3L) V6 4.000" bore x 3.484" stroke (9.025" deck ht, 5.70" rod) 1985-200-



And getting back to Buick V6s, I missed one in my post above

204 (3.3L) V6 3.701" bore x 3.160" stroke (????? deck ht, ????? rod) 1989-1993

[McGuire]

Originally posted by phantom II
Completely different engines. The 4.3 was derived from the Gen 1 Chevy small block and the 3.8 from a Buick V8.

There was also a big old 4.3 liter version of the 3.8L (231 CID) Buick V6. Used in RWDs... Buick Riviera, Lesabre and Park Avenue for a few years... around 1981-85 If I remember properly. If you can picture a Buick V6 with a Quadrajet carb, that was it.

Not a happy motor, had a problem with head gaskets and crankshaft thrust among other things... when the torque converter clutch engaged Mr. Consumer could actually HEAR the crank shuffling forward and back in the block. Which made the engine run like crap too, as the main bearing thrust knock was roughly the same frequency and amplitude as spark knock, so the piezo detonation sensor picked it up, it went straight through the bandpass filtering untouched and the ECM proceeded to ****** the ignition timing back to zero... thus the engine developed a reputation as a gutless wonder.

[Ray Bell]

Well, if you want to throw that one in the mix, I'm once again angling towards believing what I thought I read all those years ago... that the engine was derived from the regular iron block Buick V8 rather than the alloy engine...

After all, 4.4 litres was the biggest production version of the alloy engine until fairly recently, now they've gone out to 4.9 litres but I don't know what they've done to achieve this.

4.3 litres with that basic structure in a six? How?

[McGuire]

Well, after refining my recollection (by looking it up har) I find that the big version of the Buick V6 displaced 4.1 liters, not 4.3 liters as I stated earlier. How they did it was by enlarging the bore to almost 4 inches... which is surely why it was weak in the head gaskets given the 4.24" bore centers.

The main problem with regarding the V6 as a derivative of the iron V8 was that the V6 came first by three years. Unless of course you are referring to the original nailhead Buick V8. However, when you compare the Nailhead and the V6 you will find they don't really share anything.

For example, on the Nailhead the distributor and oil pump drive off the rear of the camshaft, while in the V6 (and the 215 BOP V8 and 300/340/350 V8) the distributor and oil pump are at the front of the camshaft, in the timing cover. In fact, most of these parts interchange between the V6 and V8 -- including the oil pump, timing cover and laughably antiquated rope-type front main seal with oil slinger.

Also, the Nailhead used a unique valvetrain layout with vertical valves and "backward," "underhand" rocker arms (the pushrod is on the outboard side of the rocker arm) with a pentroof combustion chamber. That's why it's called a Nailhead. No other Buick V6 or V8 engine (or any V engine that I can think of at the moment) used this configuration. The V6 and the 215 and other V8s based on them used a more-or-less conventional valvetrain layout. (Though the snap-in nylon rocker arm retainers were a bit odd.)

[McGuire]

In GM lore, the guy reportedly responsible for converting the 215 BOP V8 into a 90 degree V6 was Joe Turlay, an old-style Buick engineer who was in charge of powertrain for the division. The story also goes that he promised he could do it in 90 or 120 days or something, and for approximately $1.98.

I say old-style because he was one of these guys with 300 years of seniority who had GM and Buick directly implanted in his DNA. He had a wooden powerboat, about 22' and of his own design, with a complete early 1960's Buick interior in it -- bucket seats, insturment panel, door panels, everything. The engine was one of the Buick V8s backrouted to him from the 1962 Mickey Thompson Indy 500 program, converted to sidedraft Weber carbs with flame arrestors. A genuine character.

[Engineguy]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
Well, if you want to throw that one in the mix, I'm once again angling towards believing what I thought I read all those years ago... that the engine was derived from the regular iron block Buick V8 rather than the alloy engine...

After all, 4.4 litres was the biggest production version of the alloy engine until fairly recently, now they've gone out to 4.9 litres but I don't know what they've done to achieve this.

4.3 litres with that basic structure in a six? How?

Ray,

The 252 (4.1L) Buick V6 has a block with siamesed bores... the stroke is the same as the 3.8L and several others in the family.

252 (4.1L) V6 3.965" bore x 3.400" stroke (?????" deck ht, ????" rod) 1980-1984

With 3.965" bores and 4.24" bore spacing, the gasket surface between bores is 0.275" which is EXACTLY the same as the gasket surface the SBC 4.125" bore engines (400 and Z06) have (4.400-4.125=0.275).

[Engineguy]

Extreme Duty aluminum 4.5L Buick V6 block...

http://www.taperform...block_flyer.htm

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by McGuire
.....the Nailhead used a unique valvetrain layout with vertical valves and "backward," "underhand" rocker arms (the pushrod is on the outboard side of the rocker arm) with a pentroof combustion chamber. That's why it's called a Nailhead.....

Like the inlet valves, rockers and pushrods of a Poly 318?

I still don't understand the 'nailhead' terminology. To me nails have flat heads...

[McGuire]

The Buick Stage I and Stage II iron cylinder cases were offered in both 3.800" bore and ~4.00" bore (siamesed) versions. The siamesed block has "4.1" cast in the side instead of "3.8".

Early in the Buick Indy program both bore/stroke combinations were tried (known internally as "big bore" and "long stroke," or "Fat Man" and "Little Boy") mainly because it was felt the larger bore would unshroud the intake valve a bit. However, there was no detectable difference on the dyno at the time, so the smaller bore was settled upon for the sake of durability. The siamesed big bore block was the usual pain with steam holes, etc. The Stage II blocks also had six head fasteners per cylinder instead of four and .500" decks, solid bulkheads and splayed 4-bolt main caps. However, as someone's little joke on everyone, the Stage I and Stage II blocks had the same casting numbers.

[McGuire]

Originally posted by Ray Bell


Like the inlet valves, rockers and pushrods of a Poly 318?

I still don't understand the 'nailhead' terminology. To me nails have flat heads...

The Poly is another flavor of weird altogether.

The original Buick V8 was called the Nailhead because it had bolt-upright valves with relatively small diameters.

[NRoshier]

Originally posted by Greg Locock
For my sins I worked on a diesel conversion of the 'Rover' V8. Nasty. Very nasty.

Crikey, BL at that stage and diesel V8 conversion...that's working for your sins and then some!

[McGuire]

The original Buick Nailhead V8... note the vertical valves and pentroof combustion chamber.

[McGuire]

Originally posted by Engineguy
A lot of 215 family information, history, interchange, tips, etc. at http://www.aluminumV8.com the website for D & D Fabrications.

This is the same company I got a conversion kit from 32 years ago to put a Buick 215 in my autocross Vega. They're still at it, though mostly involved in MGB 215 conversions now (Vega kits still available if you can find a decent Vega).

That outfit also heped a good buddy of mine, Kerry McLean, source and assemble the BOP 215 V8 for this vehicle... this one is the Oldsmobile version.



Here it is going down the road. However, photos simply don't do it justice -- you have to see it in person, and your brain will still not quite be able to process the visual info. Especially when you see it doing 70 mph. In case you were wondering, yes, this thing is totally evil -- it almost killed Kerry twice. This is version 3.0. Note the seat belt. He must fasten himself in tightly just to be able to "control" it.

[ray b]

iron ''nailheads'' were both narrow and sorta lite for their time
early 60's and a good swap motor as an eazy fit in old hot-rods
also strong and common in junkyards = cheap to get and longer lasting too

[phantom II]

Oh! So these are the type of friends you have? It explains a lot.;)
Are there any pictures or videos of this contraption in max acceleration and braking modes.

Originally posted by McGuire

[Engineguy]

Well, it's official then. The BOP 215 V8 has been installed in everything.

Originally posted by McGuire
-- it almost killed Kerry twice.

...So... he's only ridden it twice?

Still, he's more sane than the guy that designed that nailhead exhaust port.

[Bob Riebe]

Mr. Mcguire:
I realize your name is not google, BUT there was/is a internet site devoting information to how to install bigger valves in the Nailhead, not cheap I realize.
Are aware of which site that is?

Bob

[desmo]

Originally posted by Engineguy


Still, he's more sane than the guy that designed that nailhead exhaust port.

No shit.

[McGuire]

Originally posted by phantom II
Oh! So these are the type of friends you have? It explains a lot.;)
Are there any pictures or videos of this contraption in max acceleration and braking modes.

Kerry has built around 20 of these things, powered by everything from moped to snowmobile engines, with the V8 as his grand stroke. "I had to build the V8," he once told me. "It makes everything else I do look sane." The little ones are beautiful things, absolute jewels. Since every input on the wheel is essentially destabilizing, every component is carefully lightened and balanced. And he can do incredible tricks and manuevers with the little ones too, BMX stuff. It's really something to see.

But the big V8 wheel is a monster. As you spotted, just one of the problems is keeping torque reaction from rotating the subchassis on accel/decel. It put him in the hospital twice with some really serious injuries. But being the kind of guy he is, that only hardened his resolve to conquer the problems and make it work. Really talented guy -- musician, fabricator, machinist -- and the original independent thinker.

[McGuire]

Originally posted by Bob Riebe
Mr. Mcguire:
I realize your name is not google, BUT there was/is a internet site devoting information to how to install bigger valves in the Nailhead, not cheap I realize.
Are aware of which site that is?

Bob

I don't know of the website, but I am sure one would use the same techniques as with most other engines.... enlarging the seat diameters, and then to go bigger than that, offset valve guides and rocker arms etc.

However, with the Buick you are constrained by the pentroof chamber configuration, which essentially splits the chamber in half. To fix that one would have to resort to radical welding and reconstruction or casting a new head. Most guys building Nailheads today have them in conservative road performance applications or vintage racing, where there is not a huge call for such extreme approaches. Despite the limited valve area, they can still make respectable power. And this is just me talking, but I have always considered the Nailhead a very good looking engine.

[Bob Riebe]

Originally posted by McGuire


I don't know of the website, but I am sure one would use the same techniques as with most other engines.... enlarging the seat diameters, and then to go bigger than that, offset valve guides and rocker arms etc.

However, with the Buick you are constrained by the pentroof chamber configuration, which essentially splits the chamber in half. To fix that one would have to resort to radical welding and reconstruction or casting a new head. Most guys building Nailheads today have them in conservative road performance applications or vintage racing, where there is not a huge call for such extreme approaches. Despite the limited valve area, they can still make respectable power. And this is just me talking, but I have always considered the Nailhead a very good looking engine.

I thought you might be aware of it because the person/people who did it, also did it commercially.

And yes it involved considerable machining but from what I remember, it really woke up the nail-head.
Bob

[m9a3r5i7o2n]

The old Nailhead valves were very small ,I believe, only in the size of the exhaust valve. Old Buick engines always had small valves, the 1930 straight 6 had a bore and stroke of 3.4375” x 4 .625” stroke for as displacement of 257.5 cu. In. Since these engines had to go into rather short cars they had to keep the engines short also and this they did by using long strokes and small bores. They made up for this by using camshafts of around 10 to 20 degrees more valve timing than engines needed with larger bores and of similar piston displacement. The idled very well under the circumstances in place at that time.

The valve sizes in the 1930 Buick were 1.5625” on both the intake and the exhaust. Some of the old Buicks had roller lifters if I read my old 1930 Buick manual correctly. (No pictures) Dual valve springs.

The old cam timing of the old straight eights were much the same. They used 283 degrees on the exhaust and 287.5 degrees on the intake, small 248 cu. In. engine. The larger 320 cu. In. engine use engine used 287.5 degrees on the exhaust and 291.5 degrees on the intake. This was in 1937.

As we can see Buick was well versed in using longer valve timing to make up for small valves.

If someone has the old Buick specs they could look this up and find the Nailheads valve sizes and the valve/camshaft timing.
M.L. Anderson

[McGuire]

Small valves with extended duration and high port velocities, especially on the exhaust, were a Joe Turlay thing.

[m9a3r5i7o2n]

If one goes to the following address you will find a fairly decent picture of Joe Turleys work on the intake and exhaust valves. The picture is # 18 on the lower left. Also a reading of the text will tell about the cam timing to some degree.

http://www.buickstre...head-page3.html

M.L. Anderson

[McGuire]

Here is a rarely seen Nailhead V8 done by Buick Engineering sometime in the early '60s, a turbocharged 401... as the story is told, it made so much power there was no application for it so it got shoved into a corner. Note the old sidedraft carbs from a six-cyl. Corvette.

[Bob Riebe]

I see from my latest Hot Rod magazine, parts are once againd being made for the old Nailhead, starting with rocker-covers, and intake manifolds.
NOW, some new cyl. heads with bigger valves would be nice.
Bob