44 replies to this topic

[SennaVsProst]

Question for all... Why is it that Ferrari had the Number 27 for so many years? Then in 1990 when Prost switched to Ferrari from Mclaren he brought the number 1 to the Ferrari, and Berger (28) brought 28 & 27 For Senna in 1990. I understand the numbering rule as it is now. The team gets the number of the highest placing driver from the previous year, so Mclaren in 2007 received the number 1, and so on... What was the numbering rules previously?

[f1steveuk]

I thought it was considered a lucky number in Italy?

[Allin]

Back then, and for a long time since 1973, the teams were not alocated numbers according to their WCC positions the previous year but simply kept the numbers they had. Only the WDC team swapped the numbers with the previous WDC team.

Therefore, when Williams (a latecomer of 1978, therefore alocated numers 27 and 28) "earned" numbers 1 and 2 by virtue of Jones winning the WDC in 1980 and staying there for 1981, Williams and Ferrari (who had the WDC driver driving for them in 1980, hence the numbers 1 and 2) swapped 1/2 for 27/28 and voila! a nonsense legend was born.

Ferrari, due to not winning th WDC nor having the WDC driver on board until 1990, retaind 27/28 during the 1980s because there was no changing numbers according to rules back then. And then Alain Prost, the reigning WDC arrived in 1990 and brought numbers 1 and 2 with him. McLaren, naturally, received 27 and 28 for the 1990 season.

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by SennaVsProst
Question for all... Why is it that Ferrari had the Number 27 for so many years? Then in 1990 when Prost switched to Ferrari from Mclaren he brought the number 1 to the Ferrari, and Berger (28) brought 28 & 27 For Senna in 1990. I understand the numbering rule as it is now. The team gets the number of the highest placing driver from the previous year, so Mclaren in 2007 received the number 1, and so on... What was the numbering rules previously?

Ferrari had the no. 27 for one reason and one reason only.

They couldn't win the drivers' championship.

End of. No mystique, no mystery, no superstition. It reflects a period when Ferrari grossly underperformed.

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by Allin
[B]Back then, and for a long time since 1973, the teams were not alocated numbers according to their WCC positions the previous year but simply kept the numbers they had. Only the WDC team swapped the numbers with the previous WDC team.

Not strictly true, there were occasional 'tidy-ups' when teams dropped out, but in principle yes (there was one in the early 90s, and I think a less thorough one in the mid-80s?), you're right that 27 was Ferrari's because they underperformed ;) There have been lots of threads on this before.

[SennaVsProst]

I just want to know the exact rule that mandated that... I understand that Ferrari was certainly under performing from 79 - 2000. I wasnt under the impression that Ferrari were given the Number 27 for any special reasons, but they did not have drivers who finished 27th or 28th during all those seasons. SO clearly as stated earlier only the WDC brought the number around. But were there even 28 drivers for every one of those seasons?

OK, so in 78 Williams had the 27 and 28 drivers.

79 Ferrari was 1 and 2

80 Williams wins WDC and gets 1 and 2, Ferrari get 27 and 28 because those were the only numbers available to switch.

SO essentially numbers would stay the same forever for your team if you were not to win the championship, or lose it up until the current numbering rules.

Thanks!

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by SennaVsProst

OK, so in 78 Williams had the 27 and 28 drivers.

79 Ferrari was 1 and 2

80 Williams wins WDC and gets 1 and 2, Ferrari get 27 and 28 because those were the only numbers available to switch.

SO essentially numbers would stay the same forever for your team if you were not to win the championship, or lose it up until the current numbering rules.

Exactly. 1/2, 5/6, 7/8, 11/12 and 27/28 did a lot of swapping between Ferrari, Brabham, McLaren and Williams.

[Benway]

two famous teams always kept the same numbers during the time of that regulation: Tyrrell (3/4) and Ligier (25/26).

[LB]

When did constant numbering start btw?

[911]

Slightly off topic, but I miss the old numbering system because it seemed more traditional and you could actually track back through the years and find the champion based on the team's numbers. Also, if you weren't winning the championship, then you were stuck with a number for a long time! For "me," I'll always associate some teams with the following numbers:

Tyrrell: 3 & 4
Ligier: 25 & 26
Brabham: 5, 6, 7 & 8
McLaren: 1, 2, 5, 6, 11 & 12
Lotus: 1, 2, 5, 6, 11 & 12
Ferrari: 1, 2, 11, 12, 27 & 28
Shadow: 16 & 17
Williams: 1, 2, 5, 6, 27 & 28
Benetton: 5, 6, 19 & 20

I'm sure there are plenty of other number variations, but that's all I can think of right now.

Cheers.

[HDonaldCapps]

It started during the 1973 season.

I am certain that this has been covered numerous times here on the forum, but.....

....apparently, it was not something that seems to have been the result of an initiative set in motion by the Bozos in Blazers of the CSI, but rather something set up by the F1CA.

[DOHC]

This thread, for one ;)

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by HDonaldCapps
It started during the 1973 season.

I am certain that this has been covered numerous times here on the forum, but.....

....apparently, it was not something that seems to have been the result of an initiative set in motion by the Bozos in Blazers of the CSI, but rather something set up by the F1CA.

The first season in which no number appeared on more than one car during the season was '78, though - but as you say it was the F1CA teams who stabilised first, with the variations being mostly amongst the tail-enders, privateers and 'extra cars'. See this thread for analysis.

[ensign14]

Weren't the Tasman numbers fixed? Perhaps to save on fablon.

I note in 1972 Jackie Stewart had 1 at every race bar two - maybe this gave people ideas?

[Nanni Dietrich]

Originally posted by f1steveuk
I thought it was considered a lucky number in Italy?

Definitely no.

[subh]

Originally posted by 911
Slightly off topic, but I miss the old numbering system because it seemed more traditional and you could actually track back through the years and find the champion based on the team's numbers. Also, if you weren't winning the championship, then you were stuck with a number for a long time! For "me," I'll always associate some teams with the following numbers:

Tyrrell: 3 & 4
Ligier: 25 & 26
Brabham: 5, 6, 7 & 8
McLaren: 1, 2, 5, 6, 11 & 12
Lotus: 1, 2, 5, 6, 11 & 12
Ferrari: 1, 2, 11, 12, 27 & 28
Shadow: 16 & 17
Williams: 1, 2, 5, 6, 27 & 28
Benetton: 5, 6, 19 & 20

I'm sure there are plenty of other number variations, but that's all I can think of right now.

Cheers.

I know what you mean, but of course there aren’t too many of those teams around any longer; and it wouldn’t make a lot of sense to have 27 and 28, for instance, in a field of 22. What numbers would you allocate now to revive this tradition? Did anyone ever favour one number over another in a team? Eg. maybe fans of Villeneuve, Tambay, Alesi favouring the 27?

Some of the ones you missed:
McLaren 7,8
Renault 15,16
Arrows 17,18
Minardi 23,24
Sauber 29,30

In motorcycle racing it has now got to the point where most riders adopt a number and thereafter take it with them wherever they go, regardless of category or team. It is rare for team-mates to have consecutive numbers. Some world champions don’t even bother with the number one. Valentino Rossi is a case in point, but in earlier times think of Barry Sheene or Kevin Schwantz, or indeed Joey Dunlop.

[911]

Originally posted by subh


Some of the ones you missed:
McLaren 7,8
Renault 15,16
Arrows 17,18
Minardi 23,24
Sauber 29,30

subh,

fyi, in my post I mentioned that "for me" these are the numbers that I'll remember the teams by.

Cheers!

[subh]

OK - well just one more post and I’ll leave this alone:

The teams’ numbers were fixed in 1973, from the fifth race in Belgium, main protagonists as follows:

1+2 Lotus
3+4 Ferrari
5+6 Tyrrell
7+8 McLaren
9+10+11 Brabham
12 Graham Hill
14 March
15 Mike Beuttler
16+17 Shadow
18 Lec
19+20+21 BRM
22 Tecno
23+24 Surtees
25+26 Williams
27 Hesketh
28 Ensign

_ _ _

The most entries in car 27 are:
Michele Alboreto - 80
Jean Alesi - 63
Alan Jones - 45
Patrick Tambay - 23
Gilles Villeneuve - 20
Ayrton Senna - 16

The most entries in car 28 are:
Gerhard Berger - 112
John Watson & René Arnoux - 32
Stefan Johansson - 31
Didier Pironi - 27
Émerson Fittipaldi & Jean Alesi - 16

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by ensign14
Weren't the Tasman numbers fixed? Perhaps to save on fablon.

I note in 1972 Jackie Stewart had 1 at every race bar two - maybe this gave people ideas?

Tasman numbers were not fixed, but co-operation between entrants and organisers undoubtedly led to entrants not having to change numbers very often. Especially after the first couple of years.

One thing that did happen there was that local entrants often relinquished their usual numbers in favour of international drivers having this simplicity in their lives. And prominence with low numbers.

[ensign14]

Actually, just thinking about this...

...did Skid Solo ever race in F1 without the number 7? I have a feeling that they may have had fixed numbers in the Tiger in the 1960s. Certainly when I was reading the numbers were the same for the drivers - 2 was Ledstock, 6 Mareilla, 8 Sparrow Smith (then Mike Mason), 11 von Vargen and so on. Even some of the midfield runners had the same number (there was an American called something like Tyler who had 21).

[Ray Bell]

If he raced on the Continent, there's a fair chance he did...

Many European races in the fifties had no odd-numbered cars.

[312B]

It seems strange that there is such an apparent mythology about GV with the number 27, bearing in mind that he only had it for a season and a half, and at least half of the events that have become synonymous with him (the race with Arnoux, being 12 seconds faster than the field in the wet at Watkins Glen) were when he wasn't using that number

[Doug Nye]

Isn't this fixed-numbers business just pathetic... I loved the era through which I grew up in racing when numbers differed from race to race and in some cases between practice and the race. At least then one had a hook by which can later help one identify all those lovely photographs that were taken...with a delicious pitfall built-in to trap the unwary. And it added some individuality race by race.

A thin end of the wedge was later prominently displaying a driver's name on the side of his car. Pathetic. A deeper part of the wedge was then fixing race numbers. Pathetic. And a deeper-still part of the wedge was finally rendering those numbers so small as to be virtually illegible and lost amongst the fag and money-laundering adverts - thereby returning us to the era when only the cognoscenti could readily recognise which trained ape was which.

Don't for one moment think I'm cheesed-off this afternoon... :

DCN

[HDonaldCapps]

Be careful, Doug! Your opinion might upset those who take exception to your retrograde view of the world as we now have it -- and, for goodness sake, stay away from the one with Prost commenting on today's technology.... particularly if you are using the word "pathetic".....

[alansart]

Do F1 cars need numbers any more? Let's face it you can hardly see the bloody things!

I must admit when I raced Formula Ford I liked to have the same number all the time. In those days on a Bank Holiday weekend I could do maybe 3 different meetings (and it didn't cost a fortune). The last thing I would do is change the numbers (if I had to) and it confused the Scrutineers sometimes by having the wrong number on the car. There would then be a panic to find the right ones!

[Fiorentina 1]

If Williams weren't running 27 & 28 when they started winning races, and ultimately the championship with Alan Jones then Ferrari would never have been numer 27. Actually at the begining of 1984 there was talk of Ferrari and Tyrrell switching numbers, because Ferrari were running up front and Tyrrell weren't. The poster for the 84 San Marino GP showed Arnoux with number 4 on his Ferrari.

Number 27: Alan Jones, Gilles Villeneuve, Patrick Tambay, Michele Alboreto, Ayrton Senna, Nigel Mansell, Alain Prost (not 100% sure) and Jean Alesi. Not a bad group of driver, eh?

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by Doug Nye
Isn't this fixed-numbers business just pathetic... I loved the era through which I grew up in racing when numbers differed from race to race and in some cases between practice and the race. At least then one had a hook by which can later help one identify all those lovely photographs that were taken...with a delicious pitfall built-in to trap the unwary. And it added some individuality race by race.

A thin end of the wedge was later prominently displaying a driver's name on the side of his car. Pathetic. A deeper part of the wedge was then fixing race numbers. Pathetic. And a deeper-still part of the wedge was finally rendering those numbers so small as to be virtually illegible and lost amongst the fag and money-laundering adverts - thereby returning us to the era when only the cognoscenti could readily recognise which trained ape was which.

Don't for one moment think I'm cheesed-off this afternoon... :

DCN

One is, these days, apparently meant to tell the two (and where's the rant about Two Car Teams Only?) cars in a team apart by the colour of the excrescence, er, sorry, TV camera about the driver's head.

To quote the wit, sage and philosopher Alexei Sayle -- "Cak, cak, bloody cak".

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by 312B
It seems strange that there is such an apparent mythology about GV with the number 27, bearing in mind that he only had it for a season and a half, and at least half of the events that have become synonymous with him (the race with Arnoux, being 12 seconds faster than the field in the wet at Watkins Glen) were when he wasn't using that number

Death cult, innit?

[dbltop]

Originally posted by petefenelon

.

To quote the wit, sage and philosopher Alexei Sayle -- "Cak, cak, bloody cak".

Or, " HELLO JOHN, GOT A NEW MOTOR?"

[Barry Boor]

Just spotted Doug's post about numbers. I couldn't agree more with the man.

Blimey, I even change the numbers on my slot cars every race these days!

As may have been pointed out on other threads, the numbers on some of this year's Grand Prix cars actually seem to be a little larger and more visible.

[ensign14]

I understand Patrick McGoohan introduced fixed numbers in a Mini Moke series in the late 60s.

[subh]

Originally posted by Fiorentina 1
Number 27: Alain Prost (not 100% sure)

Yes, in 1991. Also, James Hunt raced 27 before any of those guys.


I happen to like the fact that almost all motorcycle racers keep the same number. It makes it easier to follow, especially as you can see the numbers. Casey Stoner is doing alright with 27.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Why the fixation over numbers? Helmets are far easier. I know who's driving by the helmet, even if the car number was the biggest logo on the car I wouldn't know who it was. This is hardly American Football where the number is the only identifying mark.

The thing that annoys me about the coloured camera pods is that its the same color for all the teams. They should be different, but they should allowed to be tailored. So Ferrari can run a red one and a black one, not a red one and a neon yellow one. Likewise Williams and BMW can run White and Blue, or whatever combination they want. Both cars look a bit silly with neon red and neon yellow.

I say go back to the 'fin' camera pods anyways...

[macoran]

Originally posted by Doug Nye
Isn't this fixed-numbers business just pathetic... I loved the era through which I grew up in racing when numbers differed from race to race and in some cases between practice and the race. At least then one had a hook by which can later help one identify all those lovely photographs that were taken...with a delicious pitfall built-in to trap the unwary. And it added some individuality race by race.

A thin end of the wedge was later prominently displaying a driver's name on the side of his car. Pathetic. A deeper part of the wedge was then fixing race numbers. Pathetic. And a deeper-still part of the wedge was finally rendering those numbers so small as to be virtually illegible and lost amongst the fag and money-laundering adverts - thereby returning us to the era when only the cognoscenti could readily recognise which trained ape was which.

Don't for one moment think I'm cheesed-off this afternoon... :

DCN

So Lewis was right about the monkeys !!

[Rob G]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
Why the fixation over numbers? Helmets are far easier. I know who's driving by the helmet, even if the car number was the biggest logo on the car I wouldn't know who it was. This is hardly American Football where the number is the only identifying mark.

I have a hard enough time remembering today's helmet designs under normal circumstances, but when drivers run special edition helmets I'd be totally lost. I prefer going by numbers.

[John B]

Originally posted by Fiorentina 1
If Williams weren't running 27 & 28 when they started winning races, and ultimately the championship with Alan Jones then Ferrari would never have been numer 27. Actually at the begining of 1984 there was talk of Ferrari and Tyrrell switching numbers, because Ferrari were running up front and Tyrrell weren't. The poster for the 84 San Marino GP showed Arnoux with number 4 on his Ferrari.

There also was a rather ungainly-looking Matchbox die cast Ferrari that had a #3 (granted, I think it also had Pirelli stickers....)

I remember Enzo Ferrari making comments about how it was more appropriate for Ferrari to switch with Tyrrell. If it was after the 1983 season that's interesting, because while not quite WDC material, Tyrrell had won races in both 1982 and 83 with Alboreto.

[Collombin]

Originally posted by ensign14
Actually, just thinking about this...

...did Skid Solo ever race in F1 without the number 7?

Yes, he did once at the Nurburgring, and it may have saved his life.

After having a dream in which he suffered a terrible T-boning accident, he decided to swap to the number 9 ("to my knowledge, it was the only time I have changed my racing number during my career").

During the actual race, he spun and was in danger of being T-boned again, but luckily the other driver managed to stop. However, on the very same day in another part of Germany, a driver with a car numbered 7 was killed in an incident identical to Skid's dream.

Surprisingly the incident was not extensively covered in Autosport or Motor Sport, but the 1978 Tiger annual did a full feature on it.

Originally posted by 312B
12 seconds faster than the field in the wet at Watkins Glen

Nine and a half seconds, not even Roebuck exaggerates it that much

[TonyCotton]

I know it's bad taste to refer to one's own writings, though my excuse is it was edited by people more knowledgeble than I.

It was meant as a bit oif fun but the pic at the end posted by the site's editor showing that Enzo Ferrari had a liking for 27 is quite interesting.


http://www.ferrariow...r/27/report.asp

[caneparo]

Originally posted by f1steveuk
I thought it was considered a lucky number in Italy?

not really, lucky number in italy is 13

[scheivlak]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
Why the fixation over numbers? Helmets are far easier. I know who's driving by the helmet, even if the car number was the biggest logo on the car I wouldn't know who it was. This is hardly American Football where the number is the only identifying mark.

You certainly must be young chap, my boy.
Like anybody from my generation I was always used to look at numbers, and they were as easily recognizable as they could be http://www.forix.com...06&c=49&p=4&o=1
Never had any problem distinguishing them until that fateful day they miniaturized them or made them almost impossible to read http://www.forix.com...07&c=49&p=3&o=1
Since then I'm simply lost as far as most teams are concerned - certainly also because of the ultra-refined helmet designs. Why not make them in recognizable, easy to distinguish, basic colours?
And I'm not the only one, I hear every TV commentator making mistakes or just make a guess and correcting himself the next moment. How or why should we fare better than the professionals who should do the job for us?

[Benway]

Originally posted by subh
OK - well just one more post and I’ll leave this alone:

The teams’ numbers were fixed in 1973, from the fifth race in Belgium, main protagonists as follows:

1+2 Lotus
3+4 Ferrari
5+6 Tyrrell
7+8 McLaren
9+10+11 Brabham
12 Graham Hill
14 March
15 Mike Beuttler
16+17 Shadow
18 Lec
19+20+21 BRM
22 Tecno
23+24 Surtees
25+26 Williams
27 Hesketh
28 Ensign

_ _ _

The most entries in car 27 are:
Michele Alboreto - 80
Jean Alesi - 63
Alan Jones - 45
Patrick Tambay - 23
Gilles Villeneuve - 20
Ayrton Senna - 16

The most entries in car 28 are:
Gerhard Berger - 112
John Watson & René Arnoux - 32
Stefan Johansson - 31
Didier Pironi - 27
Émerson Fittipaldi & Jean Alesi - 16

I think the driver with the most entries with the same number must have been Jacques Laffite (26)

[john aston]

Oh come on - if you can't recognise a GP driver's helmet then you are clearly a dilettante lightweight who spends too much time watching TV and not enough trackside. If the car's quick - and , face it even the slow ones are,the number's a blur anyway.And guys, if you're struggling with your old myopic eyes but have not yet got so cynical that you still watch GPs - just watch the silver car with the yellow helmet.Clue - normally near the sharp end of the field and a total bloody star.

[D-Type]

I believe the whole 'No 27' thing arose when Enzo Ferrari asked that No 27 should not be used for the remainder of the 1982 season as a tribute/memorial to Gilles and was refused.

I thoroughly endorse all the comments about numbers nowadaysbeing all but invisible.

Incidentally, a final point on the whole numbers issue: who can name the only (championship) Grand Prix won by Stirling Moss with his 'lucky' No 7?



Answer to save anybody looking it up: Germany 1961

[Rob G]

Originally posted by D-Type
Incidentally, a final point on the whole numbers issue: who can name the only (championship) Grand Prix won by Stirling Moss with his 'lucky' No 7?



Answer to save anybody looking it up: Germany 1961

That makes perfect sense. "Germany" has 7 letters, and for the year '61, 6+1=7.

[ensign14]

Originally posted by Benway
I think the driver with the most entries with the same number must have been Jacques Laffite (26)

8.5 seasons...could be.

Or maybe Schumacher with number 1...