81 replies to this topic

[oxxcar]

I'm just wondering about the situation in the McLaren team.

Imagine that Alonso does not exist, and that Lewis arrived to McLaren with a unknown teammate. Imagine Ralfie for example.

This year Alonso is the responsible for setting up the car, and Lewis just copies his set up and studies Alonso telemetry.

Do you think that without Alonso, Lewis Hamilton could be the championship leader this year?

Lewis is the most benefited form Alonso presence in McLaren. LH is fast, but lacks experience and delegates in Alonso to set up the car.

what are your thoughts about this?

[Enkei]

Originally posted by oxxcar


This year Alonso is the responsible for setting up the car, and Lewis just copies his set up and studies Alonso telemetry.

Source?

[Lontano]

Originally posted by Enkei


Source?

Wishful thinking and too much reading between the lines

[oxxcar]

I've read it in many different places.

If you search a little bit I'm sure you can find it by yourself.

[Hacklerf]

Originally posted by Enkei


Source?

"Since he is new in the category and he doesn't know the tracks, on Fridays he gets all the data from my car and my laps so he knows the circuit better and knows where the time is found."

www.autosport.com

[PassWind]

Originally posted by Enkei


Source?

Alonso's latest in Autosport alludes to this, he doesn't say its the case of him setting up the car but he does say that his data helped Lewis out in S2 at Indy.

To say he does all the work would be a stretch, but he is helping young Lewis out which is good, though ITV mentioned that there had been information denial to Lewis's side of the garage from a certain time, which must be Sat Prac all through to first Pit. I can only confrim they said until first pit, I assume it starts Sat Prac because Alonso said he gave him data on Friday only. Its an assumption but somethings up there with regards to information sharing, Alonso now seems happy with whatever the new arrangement was inside the team.

[Gecko]

These days setting up the cars is mostly done away from the track anyway. If Lewis is learning anything from Alonso's telemetry it has little to do with setting up the car but figuring out where he is losing time with respect to his teammate. Braking a fraction later here, keeping more speed at the apex there, things like that. It just helps him learn the circuit quicker, that's probably all there is to it.

[MPea3]

Originally posted by oxxcar
Do you think that without Alonso, Lewis Hamilton could be the championship leader this year?

Maybe so or maybe not but so what? I have no doubt that Alonso has been an asset to the team and has helped in the development of the car through his input and experience. Hamilton has taken advantage of the opportunity given him though and put together a string of excellent weekens so far. If part of his success is due to having FA as a teammate, then good for him for takin advantage of the chance given him.

[Orin]

Originally posted by Hacklerf


"Since he is new in the category and he doesn't know the tracks, on Fridays he gets all the data from my car and my laps so he knows the circuit better and knows where the time is found."

www.autosport.com

Data might simply mean telemetry, not set-up. I would assume the set-up came from working on the simulator with his engineers. Their styles are very different, after all.

There's a Guardian article in which Martin Whitmarsh says that telemetry is shared both ways - so Alonso also benefits from Hamilton's traces, something he does not deign to mention.

[Ben]

I'm sure Kovalinen can copy Fisi's settings, but he's still behind him in the championship. Sharing data between your two drivers is standard working practice.

All the Alonso fans have given up slating Lewis on track because he's beating him fair and square, so now he must be using his setups

Maybe (are you sitting down FA fans?) Lewis is just doing a better job and is very talented. Please stop looking for excuses.

Ben

[marcinito]

Originally posted by Orin


There's a Guardian article in which Martin Whitmarsh says that telemetry is shared both ways - so Alonso also benefits from Hamilton's traces, something he does not deign to mention.

but the question that remains is:

how much can FA benefit from LH runs on tracks he never driven on / doesn't know as well as FA....

I think that FA relies more on his own runs than on LH data. And by that I don't mean he doesn't have an occasional peek over his shoulder...

[Gareth]

Originally posted by marcinito


but the question that remains is:

how much can FA benefit from LH runs on tracks he never driven on / doesn't know as well as FA....

Given Lewis has often been faster, he could probably learn a bit ...

[Hacklerf]

Massa had 100% access to Michaels data and setup, and he still couldn't touch him.

[oxxcar]

Originally posted by Ben
I'm sure Kovalinen can copy Fisi's settings, but he's still behind him in the championship. Sharing data between your two drivers is standard working practice.

All the Alonso fans have given up slating Lewis on track because he's beating him fair and square, so now he must be using his setups

Maybe (are you sitting down FA fans?) Lewis is just doing a better job and is very talented. Please stop looking for excuses.

Ben

I'm wondering how Lewis would stand against other teams drivers (not teammate) without the help of Alonso experience.

We all know Lewis is very good, but he's got the lucky to be in the right team, at the right time, with the right teammate.

[Owen]

Originally posted by Hacklerf
Massa had 100% access to Michaels data and setup, and he still couldn't touch him.

1. I think you would find the majority of the team and it's resources focused on Michael's peformance in that team, at that time.
2. Massa was occasionally quicker.

[oxxcar]

Originally posted by Hacklerf
Massa had 100% access to Michaels data and setup, and he still couldn't touch him.

My original idea was to try to guess if LH could be in fornt of Ferrari or BMW without data from FA set ups.

[Melbourne Park]

Originally posted by oxxcar
...
This year Alonso is the responsible for setting up the car, and Lewis just copies his set up and studies Alonso telemetry.

I don't think Hamilton is that good.

Hamilton has a marked different style to Ferdinand. If he can out perform FA with FA's own setup, then he's clearly a far superior driver.

And that is yet to be proven.

Logically, Hamilton is either not using FA's setups, or if he is, Hamilton is a faster driver than FA is.

[brunopascal]

It's a teamwork from which everybody benefits. It works like that in every team.
Since FA sees LH's telemetry too, FA benefits from it as well. Remember, there were races in the past when MS used RB's telemetry and setup because he failed to find a good setup for himself.
But I also think LH has benefitted more from FA, than FA from LH.

oxxcar, you wrote:

This year Alonso is the responsible for setting up the car, and Lewis just copies his set up and studies Alonso telemetry.

I think it's going a bit too far to say "..Lewis just copies..". True, it's a great help for him at tracks he's never been to, but it still has to be adapted to his style, and LH needs to translate it into a setup that suits his driving style.

I think LH would still have fared pretty well on all tracks even without FA's help.

[oxxcar]

Originally posted by Melbourne Park


I don't think Hamilton is that good.

Hamilton has a marked different style to Ferdinand. If he can out perform FA with FA's own setup, then he's clearly a far superior driver.

And that is yet to be proven.

Logically, Hamilton is either not using FA's setups, or if he is, Hamilton is a faster driver than FA is.

Please people, read my words ...

HOW WOULD LH PERFORM IF HE WAS RESPONSIBLE TO SET UP THE CAR?

WILL KR AND FM EXPERIENCE MAKE A BIG DIFFERENCE?

[Orin]

Originally posted by oxxcar



Please people, read my words ...

HOW WOULD LH PERFORM IF HE WAS RESPONSIBLE TO SET UP THE CAR?

WILL KR AND FM EXPERIENCE MAKE A BIG DIFFERENCE?

Given that the engineers are mostly responsible for set-up... very well indeed. In fact, I would expect him to be in the same position he is in now.

I don't expect you to believe that, as you've managed to blithely skip over the fact that it's highly improbable that Hamilton just copies Alonso's set-ups. It's not even known whether he even uses them as a basis for his own.

But keep looking for excuses if you find it reassuring.

[Lifew12]

Originally posted by oxxcar
I've read it in many different places.

If you search a little bit I'm sure you can find it by yourself.

You've read it on bulletin boards like this one, written by people who believe it to be, or want it to be, true but actually have no idea what they are on about.

The answer to your question is that there would very likely be no noticeable difference to what we see now - give, especially, that Alonso and Hamilton drive in different manners.

[Buttoneer]

Originally posted by oxxcar

Please people, read my words ...

HOW WOULD LH PERFORM IF HE WAS RESPONSIBLE TO SET UP THE CAR?

WILL KR AND FM EXPERIENCE MAKE A BIG DIFFERENCE?

Please person read our words...

PROVE THAT YOUR PREMISE IS TRUE. PROVE THAT LEWIS IS NOT CURRENTLY RESPONSIBLE FOR HIS OWN SETUP.

[Ben]

Originally posted by oxxcar


HOW WOULD LH PERFORM IF HE WAS RESPONSIBLE TO SET UP THE CAR?

The answer is - it's irrelevant. Lewis has a team of engineers to set the car up and access to all Alonso's data. How do you know that Fernando hasn't used some of Lewis's setups? I'm sure if he had he wouldn't advertise it in the media.

The fact remains that Lewis has driven better in races regardless of outright lap times. Alonso outbraked himself 4 times into T1 at Montreal including off the line at the start. Even if Lewis had benefited from an Alonso setup, Fernando still lost the race as much because of his own mistakes.

Ben

[Chubby_Deuce]

Originally posted by Gecko
These days setting up the cars is mostly done away from the track anyway. If Lewis is learning anything from Alonso's telemetry it has little to do with setting up the car but figuring out where he is losing time with respect to his teammate. Braking a fraction later here, keeping more speed at the apex there, things like that. It just helps him learn the circuit quicker, that's probably all there is to it.

Thank you.

[HoldenRT]

It's common practice for all teams to share data/setup/telemetry between drivers. Afterall the goal is for the team (ie the two drivers combined) to have the best result possible, and is much more ideal then having one that is fast and one that is struggling.

For Alonso to refuse or object to sharing data (it's clear he isn't happy with this way of doing things) shows alot of insecurity. If you are a fast driver (WDC x2 at that!) you have to believe that no matter what setup, no matter what car and no matter if he wears your boots or his own boots.. you will drive better and beat him!

[nestor]

If i was alonso i wpuldn't let lewis anywhere near my telemetry, if that kid is so ****ing good, he should do it all by himself and we could really see how he would do with his own effort, i don't think alonso really neeeds to see lewis data, he is a lot more expirienced than him , if he really does need to see lewis data , then he is not as ood ad we thougth....

[Ben]

Originally posted by nestor
If i was alonso i wpuldn't let lewis anywhere near my telemetry, if that kid is so ****ing good, he should do it all by himself and we could really see how he would do with his own effort, i don't think alonso really neeeds to see lewis data, he is a lot more expirienced than him , if he really does need to see lewis data , then he is not as ood ad we thougth....

You're welcome to your opinion, but having worked around data engineers and teams sharing data, your idea that somhow ewis is gaining seonds of time by seeing Fernando's data is ridiculous.

Also, are you 100% sure that Alonso hasn't benefited from seeing some of Lewis' data? After all he had driven a McLaren a lot more before Fernando got into one. That of course being FA fanboy excuse number 1 in a rapidly lengthening list

Data is shared between drivers in two car teams. It's standard practice and is not the reason Lewis is leading the championship.

Ben

[F1Johnny]

Originally posted by Melbourne Park


I don't think Hamilton is that good.

Hamilton has a marked different style to Ferdinand. If he can out perform FA with FA's own setup, then he's clearly a far superior driver.

And that is yet to be proven.

Logically, Hamilton is either not using FA's setups, or if he is, Hamilton is a faster driver than FA is.

This is exactly the point that the FA fanboys seem to miss. If LH is beating him with his own stick who is better?

[Lontano]

Originally posted by F1Johnny


This is exactly the point that the FA fanboys seem to miss. If LH is beating him with his own stick who is better?

it doesn't matter who wins the race, world championship points should be awarded to the driver who has developed the best setup

[Gareth]

Originally posted by Lontano
it doesn't matter who wins the race, world championship points should be awarded to the driver who has developed the best setup

No - it should be awarded to whoever has the best True Pace ™

[Ricardo F1]

Originally posted by oxxcar
Please people, read my words ...

HOW WOULD LH PERFORM IF HE WAS RESPONSIBLE TO SET UP THE CAR?

Just as he is today.

[Dudley]

Originally posted by oxxcar
I'm just wondering about the situation in the McLaren team.

Imagine that Alonso does not exist, and that Lewis arrived to McLaren with a unknown teammate. Imagine Ralfie for example.

This year Alonso is the responsible for setting up the car, and Lewis just copies his set up and studies Alonso telemetry.

Do you think that without Alonso, Lewis Hamilton could be the championship leader this year?

Lewis is the most benefited form Alonso presence in McLaren. LH is fast, but lacks experience and delegates in Alonso to set up the car.

what are your thoughts about this?

Yes, because Alonso is probably the best driver in F1, ergo just about anyone else would be further behind.

[Chubby_Deuce]

Originally posted by nestor
If i was alonso i wpuldn't let lewis anywhere near my telemetry, if that kid is so ****ing good, he should do it all by himself and we could really see how he would do with his own effort, i don't think alonso really neeeds to see lewis data, he is a lot more expirienced than him , if he really does need to see lewis data , then he is not as ood ad we thougth....

Lewis doesn't need any more help than Alonso did to get where he is. Jarno Trulli had him covered until his falling out with the team.

[Alien]

Excuse me BUT wasn´t Hamilton Mclaren's test driver? Personally i don´t think setting up the car is such a big deal for him, specially if he learns the tracks on the simulator beforehand. Some of the posters here act as if Hamilton had never driven an F-1 car before, or as if he didn´t have a good base setup by now. For engineers setting up a car nowadays is not obscure science. It bewilders me when drivers don´t find a good setup, and yes it is normal to use a teammate's telemetry, in fact every f-1 driver should use it. Senna had no problem using it when Hakkinen lapped faster than him in 93 or 94.

[F1Johnny]

Originally posted by Alien
Excuse me BUT wasn´t Hamilton Mclaren's test driver? Personally i don´t think setting up the car is such a big deal for him, specially if he learns the tracks on the simulator beforehand. Some of the posters here act as if Hamilton had never driven an F-1 car before, or as if he didn´t have a good base setup by now. For engineers setting up a car nowadays is not obscure science. It bewilders me when drivers don´t find a good setup, and yes it is normal to use a teammate's telemetry, in fact every f-1 driver should use it. Senna had no problem using it when Hakkinen lapped faster than him in 93 or 94.

Hamilton was not McLaren's test driver. Pedro and Paffett were/are.

[Alien]

True he wasn't a test driver until late last year. Still my point i think stands, by now Hamilton knows the car well, he shold have no problems finding a setup with the help of a good engineer.

[nestor]

Originally posted by Chubby_Deuce


Lewis doesn't need any more help than Alonso did to get where he is. Jarno Trulli had him covered until his falling out with the team.

No **** sherlock

[Chubby_Deuce]

Jarno Trulli, 2 times WDC!

[Melbourne Park]

On driver's setting up their cars:

Takeo Kiuchi - Drivers Then and Now,
Article following Bira's Feet Firmly on the Ground: Exclusive Interview with Shoichi Tanaka By Biranit Goren, Italy Atlas F1 Editor in Chief

Honda's F1 Project Leader Takeo Kiuchi ... is best known in the paddock as Alain Prost's race engineer in 1988, and Ayrton Senna's engineer from 1989 to 1992. He is best positioned to compare between the drivers of then, and the drivers of now.

"The drivers back then were famous - not only Alain Prost and Ayrton Senna - but also Nelson Piquet and Nigel Mansell, for example. But more to the point, these drivers could make a difference to the car; they could make a major set-up, they could comment, for example, on first corner understeer, second corner oversteer, and they could make an entire setup. Now that is the job of the engineer.

"Ayrton, for example, would come back from driving a few laps and say 'change the left side rubber 2 millimetre and change the suspension', or 'the tyre pressure by 5 kilo or something' – he, and others back then, knew what to do and how every change affects the car. Essentially today, just Michael Schumacher can do this; the other drivers are there just to drive quickly.

"Compared to ten years ago, Formula One is very systematic – the driver is just here for driving – making the setup of the car is the engineer's job. That is the primary reason for the difference between then and now. The second reason is that everything is now controlled by computers, with traction control and everything – the driver is just sitting there! The driver's jobs now are very few."

[Ciao]

Source?

I haven't read this anywhere, but I would seriously doubt that Alonso is looking at Lewis for car setup, considering he has 6 seasons under his belt and 2 WDC titles........ McLaren like every team shares the telemetry of both cars. It just makes sense that Lewis is depending more on Fernando's findings than the other way around, even if that offends the senibility of some British fans here. Just common sense.

[Raelene]

the guardian

Alonso admitted he is not upset that McLaren give Hamilton all of his telemetry: "Hamilton gets my data but I also get his data," he said. "However, the one that gets the car ready on a Friday is me."

[jimm]

Originally posted by Melbourne Park
On driver's setting up their cars:

Takeo Kiuchi - Drivers Then and Now,
Article following Bira's Feet Firmly on the Ground: Exclusive Interview with Shoichi Tanaka By Biranit Goren, Italy Atlas F1 Editor in Chief

Interesting considering Buford's repeated comments concerning the new drivers only being able to "hot lap"

Sad if true...Seems that J Villi should have been able to do this though because did he not bring in set ups from CART (ie the famous pass around the outside of MS?)

[Ciao]

"However, the one that gets the car ready on a Friday is me."

As I said...common sense!!!!

[Melbourne Park]

Originally posted by jimm


Interesting considering Buford's repeated comments concerning the new drivers only being able to "hot lap"

Sad if true...Seems that J Villi should have been able to do this though because did he not bring in set ups from CART (ie the famous pass around the outside of MS?)

JV fought Williams with his desires for setups ... but I think Jock Clear was his man for most of JV's F1 career. JV wanted some weird things on that regard, almost as a statement of defiance according to some. But Jock was doing the work I had thought. I'd imagine the Honda guy would know all about JV too, since BAR and Honda were together by then I think.

There is no doubt that a driver wants his car to behave a certain way, which is why they seem mostly to talk about balance and brakes. But the contemporary drivers don't know how to adjust the car at all - and why would they when they are not given the background or choice.

MS also showed that a good driver was not as good as today's engineers - he took a major part of the blame for the BS narrow front tyres in 2003, as he rejected BS's desire to square the profiles and build in more grip at some aero cost. After the footprint fight and Michelin getting on top with the grippy Williams in 2003, BS changed their tyres and went away from MS's preference.

If a driver is slow in a section of the track, its normal for drivers to know where they are slow, and to consider how best to increase their speed. McLaren would not only compare their cars with each other - they would compare their car with other cars, to seek out the best compromise for the qualifying and for the race.

[Chui]

Perhaps what makes LH quicker in race trim is his longer, pointier sideburns...

[Leyser]

Originally posted by oxxcar


My original idea was to try to guess if LH could be in fornt of Ferrari or BMW without data from FA set ups.

Quite easily I believe. The McLaren is so much better that even if you took away a tenth or two from every lap time, it'd still do the job.

[Raelene]

However, the one that gets the car ready on a Friday is me

FA should be embarassed then if LH is beating him with his set up!!

[Ciao]

FA should be embarassed then if LH is beating him with his set up!!

It is 7 races only. Time will tell.

[Melbourne Park]

Originally posted by Raelene


FA should be embarassed then if LH is beating him with his set up!!

Yes ... but the reality is the team setups their cars differently. There are reports that say that the team finds it easier to setup for Hamilton because he drives with a lot of touch and uses the wheel less.

Maybe when McLaren understand FA better then FA will get comparatively faster.

[David M. Kane]

So where was LH getting his info in Karts, F3 and GP2?