199 replies to this topic

[giacomo]

2006 was a remarkable year in F1 history as it brought the end to the stellar career of Michael Schumacher, and thus the end of the Schumacher era, clearly the longest period of one certain driver being the benchmark for everybody else.

Since 2001 a generation of younger drivers started to challenge the alpha driver; Juan Pablo Montoya was the first young driver who was considered as a serious threat for Schumacher, followed by Kimi Raikkonen and later Fernando Alonso.

Montoyas was eliminated due to his failure at McLaren, and left Raikkonen and Alonso as the only drivers who were considered as real "greats" by experts and fans after Schumachers retirement.

To spice up things both top dog drivers decided to switch teams at the same moment; Raikkonen took over Schumachers position at Ferrari, while Alonso was hired as the new spear head at McLaren.
So the two top drivers became the hugely paid lead drivers for the two top teams; nobody expected their teammates doing any more than playing second fiddle.


But now more than 1/3 of the new season are gone, and both star drivers are far away from delivering the expected results. Both are struggling to handle their teammates, both of them scored less points than their teammates, and both of them still have a long way to go to display the expected dominance within their teams.

What are the reasons for the problems of Raikkonen and Alonso?
And what will emerge out of the current situation?

Your thoughts, please.

[Gareth]

Moving teams has become more and more difficult in F1.

Changing tyre manufacturer has been difficult to adapt to.

Massa has improved.

Hamilton is superb.

All adds up to 2 superstars looking perhaps a little less super than everyone supposed.

[Georg_Kuyumji]

Getting used to a new Team and a new car needs time.

[robnyc]

Originally posted by Georg_Kuyumji
Getting used to a new Team and a new car needs time.

it always has. People just didn't realize it before.

[noikeee]

Originally posted by Gareth
Moving teams has become more and more difficult in F1.

Changing tyre manufacturer has been difficult to adapt to.

Massa has improved.

Hamilton is superb.

All adds up to 2 superstars looking perhaps a little less super than everyone supposed.

That pretty much sums it up.

[Atreiu]

It wasn't hype, not when you become the youngest double WDC ever.
Perhaps changing teams is much more difficult than people thought it was. Schumacher himself didn't cruise to win all of his titles, and Hamilton just might be the first ever "real deal" to hit the ground running on a winning team on the way up.

As for Raikkonen, I do have some doubts now, but I'll hold my judgement for longer.

[santori]

I'm glad both are having problems at the same time. The my-driver-is-better-than-yours posts are bad enough as it is but if only one were having problems, the fans of the other would be unbearable.

[Owen]

Originally posted by Gareth
Moving teams has become more and more difficult in F1.

Changing tyre manufacturer has been difficult to adapt to.

Massa has improved.

Hamilton is superb.

All adds up to 2 superstars looking perhaps a little less super than everyone supposed.

Yes, all that seems true IMO. Also, Hamilton is not 'new' to Mclaren and has had extensive simulator training. Not taking anything away from Lewis, but it's not true that he's just landed at Mclaren this year and got into the car and beat Alonso straight away.

[robnyc]

Originally posted by Owen


Yes, all that seems true IMO. Also, Hamilton is not 'new' to Mclaren and has had extensive simulator training. Not taking anything away from Lewis, but it's not true that he's just landed at Mclaren this year and got into the car and beat Alonso straight away.

In this article from las week Prost said that the extensive work in the simulator by Hamilton has made it easier for Mclaren to adjust the cars to Lewis characteristics.

http://www.marca.com...lo/1007366.html

[VoidNT]

Originally posted by giacomo
What are the reasons for the problems of Raikkonen and Alonso?
And what will emerge out of the current situation?

I would suggest that Michelin-Bridgestone switch is the crucial factor here. Everybody say the tyres are quite different and require different driving techniques. Both Alonso and Raikkonen made a debut in 2001 on Bridgestone, but it was a customer tyre for Sauber and Minardi and it was only one year for them. Since 2002 both Raikkonen and Alonso raced on Michelin tyres, they grew up in F1 with this tyre, they adapted their driving style to this tyre and both have built their success on using Michelin characteristics better than the others.

If there would be no Michelin, would Raikkonen and Alonso emerge as a superstars? Yes, they both could be good and solid drivers, but superstars? Who knows.

I see two ways. It could be a temporary problem for them with their talent to adapt to the Bridgestones: then my suggestion will be proven wrong. But if not, they both could be considered in history books as the best drivers of Michelin era, who were unable to do their best when the situation has changed.

[robnyc]

Originally posted by VoidNT


I would suggest that Michelin-Bridgestone switch is the crucial factor here. Everybody say the tyres are quite different and require different driving techniques. Both Alonso and Raikkonen made a debut in 2001 on Bridgestone, but it was a customer tyre for Sauber and Minardi and it was only one year for them. Since 2002 both Raikkonen and Alonso raced on Michelin tyres, they grew up in F1 with this tyre, they adapted their driving style to this tyre and both have built their success on using Michelin characteristics better than the others.

If there would be no Michelin, would Raikkonen and Alonso emerge as a superstars? Yes, they both could be good and solid drivers, but superstars? Who knows.

I see two ways. It could be a temporary problem for them with their talent to adapt to the Bridgestones: then my suggestion will be proven wrong. But if not, they both could be considered in history books as the best drivers of Michelin era, who were unable to do their best when the situation has changed.

I think the tires is a factor but not a big factor.. Tire compounds changed in 2005 and than again in 2006. Alonso and Kimi aren't the only drivers on the grid who are new to bridgestones this year, almost all of them are. (I don't see Nick struggling. )
Massa switched from Michellin-Sauber to Ferrari - Bridgestons last year and no one commented about the impact of that change.
The new car as a whole (tire, chasis, handling, electronics, suspension) is what is different for any driver switching teams not just the tires..

[HP]

Originally posted by VoidNT


I would suggest that Michelin-Bridgestone switch is the crucial factor here. Everybody say the tyres are quite different and require different driving techniques. Both Alonso and Raikkonen made a debut in 2001 on Bridgestone, but it was a customer tyre for Sauber and Minardi and it was only one year for them. Since 2002 both Raikkonen and Alonso raced on Michelin tyres, they grew up in F1 with this tyre, they adapted their driving style to this tyre and both have built their success on using Michelin characteristics better than the others.

If there would be no Michelin, would Raikkonen and Alonso emerge as a superstars? Yes, they both could be good and solid drivers, but superstars? Who knows.

I see two ways. It could be a temporary problem for them with their talent to adapt to the Bridgestones: then my suggestion will be proven wrong. But if not, they both could be considered in history books as the best drivers of Michelin era, who were unable to do their best when the situation has changed.

I don't know about that, when BAR/Sauber switched to Michelin the same drivers in the same car were immediately 2 tenths or more faster. If there is a problem, possibly the adjusting to lesser grip of this years tyres.

[prty]

Originally posted by VoidNT

Both Alonso and Raikkonen made a debut in 2001 on Bridgestone,

The 2001 Minardi was on Michelin!

http://corchopaen.ie...tos/Minardi.jpg

Originally posted by robnyc


Massa switched from Michellin-Sauber to Ferrari - Bridgestons last year and no one commented about the impact of that change.

http://quatrorodas.a...auber2_1024.jpg

[emburmak]

IMO I think the 'big two' are either nowhere near as good as the 'hype' or both LH & FM are exceptional drivers, on a par with or better than their teammates. Perhaps the truth is somewhere in-between. The current list of excuses, by both sets of fans (KR & FA) have run their course. If a 'great' driver cannot adapt to a new environment, tyres cars etc after pre-season testing and seven races into a season, pray when will he?

A lot of rookie drivers were not even given half a season to bed in before being shown the door--eg AP, JW. I do not foresee any great change in the order of things; the case of either 'blowing their teammates away' as hyped is a fanciful fanboy dream best forgotten.

My take; FA's greatness will depend alot on his intra-team battle with LH over the next few seasons and the latter's later standing. KR's case is more difficult because he is up against supposedly known quality (FM) who frankly was not expected to give KR this hard a time. KR's rep will suffer if he fails to defeat FM this season but even worse if he fails to obliterate FM next season, his rep such as it is will suffer terminal decline.

In essence Alonso can afford to lose to LH, a unknown who might become one of the all-time greats but KR losing to the known FM (who lost to NH, GF & MS) no matter the latter's improvement will be terminal. But he still has time to beat FM; the rest of this season and the next, although his climb to all-time greatness has been undermined seriously this season, because let's face it unless FM pulls some phenomenal stats like 3 WDC's etc in later years he will not become an all-time legend.

[VoidNT]

Originally posted by prty
The 2001 Minardi was on Michelin!

Oops... Well, Fernando even never drove on Bridgestones before 2007.

[inaki]

Fernando is 2nd in WDC and still has a shot to get the title. I think he is not in such a horrible position.

[Man of the race]

it really looks that some of Alonso hype is unjustified at the moment, but things may change, if he has some of his previous luck.

[idrumond]

Originally posted by robnyc


it always has. People just didn't realize it before.

I disagree with you robnyc. Senna moved from Lotus to McLaren and won the WDC. Prost did one year in Williams and won too.

Maybe nowadays its more difficult, but 10 or 20 years ago, if you one was great he won anyway.

[F1Lurker]

Originally posted by emburmak
IMO I think the 'big two' are either nowhere near as good as the 'hype' or both LH & FM are exceptional drivers, on a par with or better than their teammates. Perhaps the truth is somewhere in-between. The current list of excuses, by both sets of fans (KR & FA) have run their course. If a 'great' driver cannot adapt to a new environment, tyres cars etc after pre-season testing and seven races into a season, pray when will he?

A lot of rookie drivers were not even given half a season to bed in before being shown the door--eg AP, JW. I do not foresee any great change in the order of things; the case of either 'blowing their teammates away' as hyped is a fanciful fanboy dream best forgotten.

My take; FA's greatness will depend alot on his intra-team battle with LH over the next few seasons and the latter's later standing. KR's case is more difficult because he is up against supposedly known quality (FM) who frankly was not expected to give KR this hard a time. KR's rep will suffer if he fails to defeat FM this season but even worse if he fails to obliterate FM next season, his rep such as it is will suffer terminal decline.

In essence Alonso can afford to lose to LH, a unknown who might become one of the all-time greats but KR losing to the known FM (who lost to NH, GF & MS) no matter the latter's improvement will be terminal. But he still has time to beat FM; the rest of this season and the next, although his climb to all-time greatness has been undermined seriously this season, because let's face it unless FM pulls some phenomenal stats like 3 WDC's etc in later years he will not become an all-time legend.

Very good analysis and I agree completely!

[Vilenova]

Originally posted by Owen


Yes, all that seems true IMO. Also, Hamilton is not 'new' to Mclaren and has had extensive simulator training. Not taking anything away from Lewis, but it's not true that he's just landed at Mclaren this year and got into the car and beat Alonso straight away.

Actually, that is exactly what Lewis did and is doing. Alonzo also has access to the simulator.

[robnyc]

Originally posted by idrumond


I disagree with you robnyc. Senna moved from Lotus to McLaren and won the WDC. Prost did one year in Williams and won too.

Maybe nowadays its more difficult, but 10 or 20 years ago, if you one was great he won anyway.

Senna = Raikkonen ............... Don't think so sorry?
Prost = Alonso ............not yet

and yes nowadays seems to be more difficult.
Beating Prost in his first year at Mclaren was what made Senna become the greatest and fastest driver ever in Formula One.

[macoran]

Originally posted by robnyc


In this article from las week Prost said that the extensive work in the simulator by Hamilton has made it easier for Mclaren to adjust the cars to Lewis characteristics.

My thoughts on another thread:

Could the simulator be put to use differently ?

Data collected from races in 2005/2006 are fed in, the on screen display is adapted.
Lewis has been "driving" the simulator quite long now, and Mclaren has been
"reading" the way Lewis "drives"the data.
Accordingly the MP4/22 is designed more to suit the Lewis "data drive style" ?

After all Lewis probably had more testing input on MP4/21-22 testing car than Alonso.

So rather than using it only for driver "training", it is also "teaching" the design team
how a driver reacts to the whole set-up with facts and figures.
Surely numbers are worth more than de-brief words ?

[Owen]

Originally posted by Vilenova


Actually, that is exactly what Lewis did and is doing. Alonzo also has access to the simulator.

The point is that Lewis has been part of the Mclaren family (and used to the Mclaren way of doing things) far longer than Alonso. I'm just saying that may be a factor in why Lewis has hit the ground running.

[F1Lurker]

Originally posted by idrumond


I disagree with you robnyc. Senna moved from Lotus to McLaren and won the WDC. Prost did one year in Williams and won too.

Maybe nowadays its more difficult, but 10 or 20 years ago, if you one was great he won anyway.

Yep. when MS left Benetton for Ferrari he dragged the Ferrari up the grid utterly dominating his team-mate. He even took 3 victories in what was surely an inferior car.

People don't realise that Alonso is driving fabulously. Its just that Hamilton is driving better. All the talk about tires and new team at this stage is just bullshit. I believe Hamilton is driving very close to the limit. I doubt that the current scenario would be different in any other team or any other tires. However, i might be wrong.

One thing that is for sure is that Hamilton will get better. In fact I expect him to easily beat Alonso from now on.

[robnyc]

Originally posted by macoran


My thoughts on another thread:

Could the simulator be put to use differently ?

Data collected from races in 2005/2006 are fed in, the on screen display is adapted.
Lewis has been "driving" the simulator quite long now, and Mclaren has been
"reading" the way Lewis "drives"the data.
Accordingly the MP4/22 is designed more to suit the Lewis "data drive style" ?

After all Lewis probably had more testing input on MP4/21-22 testing car than Alonso.

So rather than using it only for driver "training", it is also "teaching" the design team
how a driver reacts to the whole set-up with facts and figures.
Surely numbers are worth more than de-brief words ?

these simulators are really an amazing thing..

[robnyc]

Originally posted by F1Lurker


I doubt that the current scenario would be different in any other team or any other tires. However, i might be wrong.

I highly doubt this, even if it cannot be proven.
Pretend Renault continued with the same success this year and ALonso stayed. Do you honestly believe that if Hamilton had joined him there this year since the winter he would be leading Alonso?
How about if Kimi had stayed in Mclaren and Massa came over to join him there..
Do you think Massa would be spanking Kimi at Mclaren and leading him in points by now?

[clampett]

Yes, end of the hype.

And I seriously doubt it's only these 4 drivers who can drive for wins in McL and F. Nick Heidfeld for example managed to finish in the top4 four times this year, with a far inferior car to those.

And good to see these forgiving opinions. Too bad I never seen any of those in 2005 when two known qualities Fisi and JPM switched their teams and had to adapt to cars suited to the other. They were all excuses and great drivers must adapt.

Eat your lunch now dear propagandists, I enjoy the show.

[robnyc]

Originally posted by F1Lurker


Yep. when MS left Benetton for Ferrari he dragged the Ferrari up the grid utterly dominating his team-mate. He even took 3 victories in what was surely an inferior car.

Irvine did not drive for Ferrari in 95, he came from Jordan.
The ferrari lineup prior to Shumi was Alesi and Berger.
In 96 it was Shumi and Irvine.

[Vilenova]

Originally posted by Owen


The point is that Lewis has been part of the Mclaren family (and used to the Mclaren way of doing things) far longer than Alonso. I'm just saying that may be a factor in why Lewis has hit the ground running.

Oh I'm sure that has helped him dealing with everything outside the car. No doubt about that.

[Vilenova]

One thing is certain, I am liking the rivalry and it's good that Ron seems to be letting them sort it out on the track.

[robnyc]

Originally posted by clampett
Yes, end of the hype.

And I seriously doubt it's only these 4 drivers who can drive for wins in McL and F. Nick Heidfeld for example managed to finish in the top4 four times this year, with a far inferior car to those.

And good to see these forgiving opinions. Too bad I never seen any of those in 2005 when two known qualities Fisi and JPM switched their teams and had to adapt to cars suited to the other. They were all excuses and great drivers must adapt.

Eat your lunch now dear propagandists, I enjoy the show.

I was not here in 2005, so I would have been really surprised if people in here actually mocked anyone who stated that JPM and Fisi were adjusting to the team. Could it be that because it has now happened to the most popular drivers it must be true but before it was just an excuse. ???

[robnyc]

Originally posted by Vilenova
One thing is certain, I am liking the rivalry and it's good that Ron seems to be letting them sort it out on the track.

put it this way the more of gap Lewis can put to Alonso the more preferential treatment he would get from Ron because he would be closer to the WDC.

[Ricardo F1]

Tyres and new teams - against established and damn quick opposition. If Alonso and Raikkonen don't get the upper hand on their team mates by the seasons end then I'd be surprised - and yes, then the hype is gone. But the advantage that Massa has, and to a far greater limit Hamilton has (being with McLaren for so many years and knowing the set up so well) is not unsubstantial when you're talking tenths of a second between the fastest driver and the rest.

[robnyc]

Originally posted by Ricardo F1
Tyres and new teams - against established and damn quick opposition. If Alonso and Raikkonen don't get the upper hand on their team mates by the seasons end then I'd be surprised - and yes, then the hype is gone.

I don't think there was any hype to be honest with you. As you said the opposition are very quick drivers as well who are established. (Lewis to a lesser degree).. The hype was probably a creation or a myth by fans who invented the principle that Kimi would have no problem adjusting to a new team, same to Alonso.
Outside of this bb, I haven't heard such claims.

[Bart]

I remember back in 2002 somebody saying that Massa's talent level was pretty much on a par with Kimi's (backed up with evidence from their years at Sauber opposite Heidfeld), and everybody laughing at that person and saying it was obvious to anyone that Felipe had no right to be in an F1 car.

[Ciao]

But now more than 1/3 of the new season are gone, and both star drivers are far away from delivering the expected results. Both are struggling to handle their teammates, both of them scored less points than their teammates, and both of them still have a long way to go to display the expected dominance within their teams.

Giacomo, using the word hype to refer to Fernando Alonso and Kimi Raikkonen is absurd, in my mind. Fernando won 2 WDC titles and I would argue that the first to crack last year was Schumacher, with his antics during Monaco qualifying, a sign of insecurity at that point in the season. Being Schumi, he recovered, but Alonso kept it together even after the 2 DNFs caused by a lost tire and a blown engine at the apex of the season.

Kimi is fast, courageous (his pass on the last lap against Fisichella to win the race comes to mind...), and overall extremely talented. Made it in F1 with less than 30 races in junior formulas!!!

However, I won't deny that both are slightly, and I mean, slightly outperformed so far. But there is a reason and everyone here is either discounting it, or ignoring it, or unaware of it. FA and KR are still learning how to drive their new cars with a different tire. They changed BOTH car AND tires. It takes sometime to adapt. They are still quite fast but in a sport where only 100% will do, feeling 99.5% confortable with your car will get you beaten by top drivers like Lewis and Felipe.

Also, part of the problem is that before the season few were aware of how good Lewis and Felipe are: Lewis was a rookie with no data to compare and Felipe was Ferrari's pet project, wasn't he??? or was he? He started 2006 getting trashed by Michael Schumacher in terms of qual/results. But after a third of the season, his times started getting closer and closer to the Maister. By season end Massa had scored poles, wins and outperformed his teamate several times. Now I would argue that if you can keep Schumacher's pace and even beat him at times in the same car, that makes you a pretty fast nasty little driver, wouldn't you agree? Felipe boyish happy face and little size shouldn't fool you into a superficial analysis of the guy, he is super fast. And he is learning to make less and less mistakes. Still makes them, but he is getting more and more polished by the race. And that will make him a serious contender for years to come.

Finally, evidence of the fact that it will take some time for Kimi and Fernando to re-learn to drive in different packages is coming from other drivers. Albers is struggling to adapt to Bridgestone as well and mentioned yesterday he is getting more and more used to them, but he still is not 100% and only time and driving will cure that. Alex Wurtz is struggling to "feel" new tires with low fuels for qual sessions and is currently working on solving that issue, as during race and regular fuel loads he is competitive.

Unfortunately, way too many people here and certainly the media (and their interest in selling sensational news) are already assuming Kimi and Fernando are already beaten. They might in the end lose to their teamates in terms of points by season's end, because they are behind right now. But I am quite confident that by season's end both will not be struggling behind their teamates, as by then they will have solved the issues. Sure, their 2007 season might turn out to be compromised, but it is far from being a hype issue, more a technical one. And honestly, Fernando is only one DNF behind Lewis, don't count him out.......

Finally, let's not forget FA finished the last race in Lewis stream and Kimi in Felipe's gearbox...... we are talking less than a second or two over a GP and without 100% comfort level......if anything, this is showing they are catching up......

[gerry nassar]

Originally posted by Ciao


Giacomo, using the word hype to refer to Fernando Alonso and Kimi Raikkonen is absurd, in my mind. Fernando won 2 WDC titles and I would argue that the first to crack last year was Schumacher, with his antics during Monaco qualifying, a sign of insecurity at that point in the season. Being Schumi, he recovered, but Alonso kept it together even after the 2 DNFs caused by a lost tire and a blown engine at the apex of the season.

Kimi is fast, courageous (his pass on the last lap against Fisichella to win the race comes to mind...), and overall extremely talented. Made it in F1 with less than 30 races in junior formulas!!!

However, I won't deny that both are slightly, and I mean, slightly outperformed so far. But there is a reason and everyone here is either discounting it, or ignoring it, or unaware of it. FA and KR are still learning how to drive their new cars with a different tire. They changed BOTH car AND tires. It takes sometime to adapt. They are still quite fast but in a sport where only 100% will do, feeling 99.5% confortable with your car will get you beaten by top drivers like Lewis and Felipe.

Also, part of the problem is that before the season few were aware of how good Lewis and Felipe are: Lewis was a rookie with no data to compare and Felipe was Ferrari's pet project, wasn't he??? or was he? He started 2006 getting trashed by Michael Schumacher in terms of qual/results. But after a third of the season, his times started getting closer and closer to the Maister. By season end Massa had scored poles, wins and outperformed his teamate several times. Now I would argue that if you can keep Schumacher's pace and even beat him at times in the same car, that makes you a pretty fast nasty little driver, wouldn't you agree? Felipe boyish happy face and little size shouldn't fool you into a superficial analysis of the guy, he is super fast. And he is learning to make less and less mistakes. Still makes them, but he is getting more and more polished by the race. And that will make him a serious contender for years to come.

Finally, evidence of the fact that it will take some time for Kimi and Fernando to re-learn to drive in different packages is coming from other drivers. Albers is struggling to adapt to Bridgestone as well and mentioned yesterday he is getting more and more used to them, but he still is not 100% and only time and driving will cure that. Alex Wurtz is struggling to "feel" new tires with low fuels for qual sessions and is currently working on solving that issue, as during race and regular fuel loads he is competitive.

Unfortunately, way too many people here and certainly the media (and their interest in selling sensational news) are already assuming Kimi and Fernando are already beaten. They might in the end lose to their teamates in terms of points by season's end, because they are behind right now. But I am quite confident that by season's end both will not be struggling behind their teamates, as by then they will have solved the issues. Sure, their 2007 season might turn out to be compromised, but it is far from being a hype issue, more a technical one. And honestly, Fernando is only one DNF behind Lewis, don't count him out.......

Finally, let's not forget FA finished the last race in Lewis stream and Kimi in Felipe's gearbox...... we are talking less than a second or two over a GP and without 100% comfort level......if anything, this is showing they are catching up......

Top post! Well said - I cant agree more

[Vilenova]

Originally posted by robnyc


put it this way the more of gap Lewis can put to Alonso the more preferential treatment he would get from Ron because he would be closer to the WDC.

Probably true. Also true if Alonzo wer ahead I'm betting.

Be nice to have Massa, Nick or Kimi in there mixing it up too.

[Vilenova]

Originally posted by Ciao


Giacomo, using the word hype to refer to Fernando Alonso and Kimi Raikkonen is absurd, in my mind. Fernando won 2 WDC titles and I would argue that the first to crack last year was Schumacher, with his antics during Monaco qualifying, a sign of insecurity at that point in the season. Being Schumi, he recovered, but Alonso kept it together even after the 2 DNFs caused by a lost tire and a blown engine at the apex of the season.

Kimi is fast, courageous (his pass on the last lap against Fisichella to win the race comes to mind...), and overall extremely talented. Made it in F1 with less than 30 races in junior formulas!!!

However, I won't deny that both are slightly, and I mean, slightly outperformed so far. But there is a reason and everyone here is either discounting it, or ignoring it, or unaware of it. FA and KR are still learning how to drive their new cars with a different tire. They changed BOTH car AND tires. It takes sometime to adapt. They are still quite fast but in a sport where only 100% will do, feeling 99.5% confortable with your car will get you beaten by top drivers like Lewis and Felipe.

Also, part of the problem is that before the season few were aware of how good Lewis and Felipe are: Lewis was a rookie with no data to compare and Felipe was Ferrari's pet project, wasn't he??? or was he? He started 2006 getting trashed by Michael Schumacher in terms of qual/results. But after a third of the season, his times started getting closer and closer to the Maister. By season end Massa had scored poles, wins and outperformed his teamate several times. Now I would argue that if you can keep Schumacher's pace and even beat him at times in the same car, that makes you a pretty fast nasty little driver, wouldn't you agree? Felipe boyish happy face and little size shouldn't fool you into a superficial analysis of the guy, he is super fast. And he is learning to make less and less mistakes. Still makes them, but he is getting more and more polished by the race. And that will make him a serious contender for years to come.

Finally, evidence of the fact that it will take some time for Kimi and Fernando to re-learn to drive in different packages is coming from other drivers. Albers is struggling to adapt to Bridgestone as well and mentioned yesterday he is getting more and more used to them, but he still is not 100% and only time and driving will cure that. Alex Wurtz is struggling to "feel" new tires with low fuels for qual sessions and is currently working on solving that issue, as during race and regular fuel loads he is competitive.

Unfortunately, way too many people here and certainly the media (and their interest in selling sensational news) are already assuming Kimi and Fernando are already beaten. They might in the end lose to their teamates in terms of points by season's end, because they are behind right now. But I am quite confident that by season's end both will not be struggling behind their teamates, as by then they will have solved the issues. Sure, their 2007 season might turn out to be compromised, but it is far from being a hype issue, more a technical one. And honestly, Fernando is only one DNF behind Lewis, don't count him out.......

Finally, let's not forget FA finished the last race in Lewis stream and Kimi in Felipe's gearbox...... we are talking less than a second or two over a GP and without 100% comfort level......if anything, this is showing they are catching up......

The only thing I would add to this is that lets not forget Lewis is new to F1 and new to some of the tracks. So while Kimi and Alonzo are adapting to a new team and tires, Lewis is adapting to a new level of performance and all the media pressure that goes along with his amazing performances so far this season.

[Fatgadget]

Originally posted by giacomo
2006 was a remarkable year in F1 history as it brought the end to the stellar career of Michael Schumacher, and thus the end of the Schumacher era, clearly the longest period of one certain driver being the benchmark for everybody else.

Since 2001 a generation of younger drivers started to challenge the alpha driver; Juan Pablo Montoya was the first young driver who was considered as a serious threat for Schumacher, followed by Kimi Raikkonen and later Fernando Alonso.

Montoyas was eliminated due to his failure at McLaren, and left Raikkonen and Alonso as the only drivers who were considered as real "greats" by experts and fans after Schumachers retirement.

To spice up things both top dog drivers decided to switch teams at the same moment; Raikkonen took over Schumachers position at Ferrari, while Alonso was hired as the new spear head at McLaren.
So the two top drivers became the hugely paid lead drivers for the two top teams; nobody expected their teammates doing any more than playing second fiddle.


But now more than 1/3 of the new season are gone, and both star drivers are far away from delivering the expected results. Both are struggling to handle their teammates, both of them scored less points than their teammates, and both of them still have a long way to go to display the expected dominance within their teams.

What are the reasons for the problems of Raikkonen and Alonso?
And what will emerge out of the current situation?

Your thoughts, please.

Nice to see a bit of humility from someone who was frankly dismissive if not downright derogatory of young Hamilton pre season. Is this thread meant to cleanse your conscience if you don't mind me asking?

[robnyc]

Originally posted by Vilenova

Probably true. Also true if Alonzo wer ahead I'm betting.

Be nice to have Massa, Nick or Kimi in there mixing it up too.

think about this if Hamilton was struggling behind Alonso in points before Indy, wouldn't have made more sense to have fueled Alonso with at least 2 more laps than Lewis in the second stint instead of having him come in before him. ???
I am not criticizing their strategy at all in here. They play it fair for both drivers but Alonso was a bit faster and with those extra laps of fuel with a lighter car he would have easily leapfrogged Hamilton.

[giacomo]

Great post by Ciao.

The only part I disagree with is the first sentence.

Originally posted by Ciao
Giacomo, using the word hype to refer to Fernando Alonso and Kimi Raikkonen is absurd, in my mind.

There was - and to some extent still is - a hype about Fernando and Kimi; the premise that those pair is head and shoulders above all their peers. Lewis and Felipe are still busy disproving that premise.

So the use of this word is everything else than absurd.

[giacomo]

Originally posted by Fatgadget
Nice to see a bit of humility from someone who was frankly dismissive if not downright derogatory of young Hamilton pre season. Is this thread meant to cleanse your conscience if you don't mind me asking?

I have to admit, I never expected Hamilton being a serious challenger for Alonso, and I never expected Massa being a serious challenger for Raikkonen, not even in my wildest dreams.

I fell for the hype.

[Georg_Kuyumji]

Originally posted by idrumond


I disagree with you robnyc. Senna moved from Lotus to McLaren and won the WDC. Prost did one year in Williams and won too.

Maybe nowadays its more difficult, but 10 or 20 years ago, if you one was great he won anyway.

There are examples for both cases, some switch and win immediately and some dont look as good as before.

Senna didnt look as comfortable with the Williams in 1994 either, you have to take into account that the whole environment is changing for the driver, you not only need to get used to the car and its strenghts and weaknesses, you have to work with new people who also need to get used to you and your driving style.
It's like changing the company you work for, as the whole environment is changing it needs time to get everything right. And in some cases it works out better than in others.

Alonso will improve as he is getting more used to the Mclaren, Villeneuve for example was also behind Massa in the first year, but as he got more used to the Sauber and with more experience with the car he improved and was quite often faster than Massa in the second year. There are so many things that come together when a driver has a new car that every detail can make a difference that we dont see, and need time to get accustomed, while in other cases the driving style, the Team, the car fits together just nicely.

[Ricardo F1]

Originally posted by giacomo

I fell for the hype.

Or you radically misunderstood changing teams and how quick Massa is?

[giacomo]

Originally posted by Ricardo F1
Or you radically misunderstood changing teams and how quick Massa is?

I am quite sure that you predicted exactly and precise all happenings of the 2007 season.

Because of your expert knowledge.

[Juan Kerr]

Originally posted by Gareth
Moving teams has become more and more difficult in F1.

Changing tyre manufacturer has been difficult to adapt to.

Massa has improved.

Hamilton is superb.

All adds up to 2 superstars looking perhaps a little less super than everyone supposed.

Impossible to tell if Massa has improved its not a definite fact, any of the drivers could have improved. I keep saying this, the only confusing factor in F1 is how different cars affect different drivers.
Massa has found a car that his style suits and it happens to be a race winning car, like Frentzen in the '99 Jordan, Fisi was brilliant until he had to handle that Alonso Renault, Massa was average against Fisi, Alonos is now struggling in the McLaren that suits an oversteering driver.
There are factors that people don't consider when evaluating drivers, Ralf is great but not in this years Toyota there are many many factors that give us the results the supposedly say who's the best.
Well unfortunetly its not the results that show us who's fastest, its sustained succes and continued performance in any car.
Michael Schumacher and Alain Prost and Ayrton Senna could jump in anything. Raikkonen, Massa, Fisi, Alonso are showing us that they need to be in the right situation like Frentzen.

[robnyc]

Originally posted by Georg_Kuyumji


There are examples for both cases, some switch and win immediately and some dont look as good as before.

Senna didnt look as comfortable with the Williams in 1994 either, you have to take into account that the whole environment is changing for the driver, you not only need to get used to the car and its strenghts and weaknesses, you have to work with new people who also need to get used to you and your driving style.
It's like changing the company you work for, as the whole environment is changing it needs time to get everything right. And in some cases it works out better than in others.

Alonso will improve as he is getting more used to the Mclaren, Villeneuve for example was also behind Massa in the first year, but as he got more used to the Sauber and with more experience with the car he improved and was quite often faster than Massa in the second year. There are so many things that come together when a driver has a new car that every detail can make a difference that we dont see, and need time to get accustomed, while in other cases the driving style, the Team, the car fits together just nicely.

Great response... we share thoughts.

[Ricardo F1]

Originally posted by giacomo
I am quite sure that you predicted exactly and precise all happenings of the 2007 season.

Because of your expert knowledge.

No, I actually did think that Kimi would adapt to Ferrari much, much quicker. Then again I also thought that Ferrari would have a much much better car than they do given the Bridgestone advantage we thought they had. I DID realize that Massa was quick, but Malaysia summed up where I thought Massa lay - very quick and very quick to make mistakes. I also thought Alonso would have the upper hand on Hamilton easily.

[Group B]

Originally posted by Juan Kerr
Impossible to tell if Massa has improved its not a definite fact, any of the drivers could have improved. I keep saying this, the only confusing factor in F1 is how different cars affect different drivers.
Massa has found a car that his style suits and it happens to be a race winning car, like Frentzen in the '99 Jordan, Fisi was brilliant until he had to handle that Alonso Renault, Massa was average against Fisi, Alonos is now struggling in the McLaren that suits an oversteering driver.
There are factors that people don't consider when evaluating drivers, Ralf is great but not in this years Toyota there are many many factors that give us the results the supposedly say who's the best.
Well unfortunetly its not the results that show us who's fastest, its sustained succes and continued performance in any car.
Michael Schumacher and Alain Prost and Ayrton Senna could jump in anything. Raikkonen, Massa, Fisi, Alonso are showing us that they need to be in the right situation like Frentzen.