145 replies to this topic

[carbonfibre]

Wow what happened there to lapierre? Either his rear brakes didnt work or the throttle got stuck i believe.

[Dolph]

errrmmmm... what was that? He either fell asleep or that's the first time GP2 car has brakes failed.

[Youichi]

Originally posted by carbonfibre
Wow what happened there to lapierre? Either his rear brakes didnt work or the throttle got stuck i believe.

As he bounced accross the gravel trap, the fronts were locked, but the rears were still turning, it didn't look like a normal driver error to me.

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
Someone needs to be sat down for the weekend for the yellow flag incidents. Not sure who, but they really need to make an example of someone.

And it should be Ammamuller, he managed to spin off, right next to the poor chap craning off Zauggs car.

[Chyp]

I really like the GP2 coz unlike todays F1 you never know who's going to win. I also like the fact that they don't penalize the drivers for overtaking manouvres. However, I think they'll have to change giving points for the fastest lap as this isn't the 1st time Nakajima has been out of the points in the 1st race & he changes his tyres & sets the lap record.

[carbonfibre]

In F1 you don't get penalized for a overtaking manouvre, unless you completely screw up and hit the other guy.

[noikeee]

So we had 3 team-mate crashes this weekend. Glock vs Zuber, Conway vs Filippi, Senna vs Zaugg. We already had Maldonado vs Hirate in some other race before (can't remember which one). Is this some sort of twisted way to impress the F1 bosses?

I really hope for Lapierre's sake that it wasn't a driver error, cause if it was he seemed to miss the braking point by 100 metres or so. Well done to Villa for his first win (brings memories of a very young Alonso in F3000, although FA seemed more talented already in my opinion), and also well done to Filippi, Di Grassi and Pantano for being consistently fast all weekend. Bruno Senna was equally very quick, but this wasn't a good race for him, all over the place with contact on other cars and spins. Still, it has been a good rookie season for him.

[wingwalker]

the video of the crash i uploaded to youtube has now over 10.000 views

[prty]

Originally posted by tidytracks


I'm sorry, but the fact Viso is still with us means the safety equipment did exactly what is was supposed to.

So for example here the safety equipment did also what it was suposed to do? The cockpit is supossed to be intact always.

If he is still with us, it's all down to luck.

[wingwalker]

Originally posted by prty


So for example here the safety equipment did also what it was suposed to do? The cockpit is supossed to be intact always.

If he is still with us, it's all down to luck.

what's the story behind this picture, was the driver ok (it looks like he is trying to get out of.. uh.. cockpit?)

[Jackman]

Originally posted by prty
So for example here the safety equipment did also what it was suposed to do? The cockpit is supossed to be intact always.

If he is still with us, it's all down to luck.

But does that have to do with anything? Tidytracks was referring to GP2 and the FIA crash tests, not a home build car.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Thats uhm, a Formula 1 car.

Though Ferrari themselves said they were concerned and confused that the car did that in what was a very minor incident.

[carbonfibre]

Im sorry but wasnt that a old F399 (1999 car) which he bought and it was the car which michael crashed on silverstone and they glued (or something like that) the tube together again?

It was something like that.

[CWeil]

Originally posted by prty


So for example here the safety equipment did also what it was suposed to do? The cockpit is supossed to be intact always.

If he is still with us, it's all down to luck.

It annoys the crap out of me when people reference this picture as though this sort of failure can happen to a current F1 car. It CAN'T. The context of this picture is really important.

What happened here is an amateur driver driving a Ferrari F1 car (happened in 2003/2004, right?) WELL after the racing season it was used, and he had had plenty of time in the cockpit. The chassis itself happened to be one that was used extensively in testing and I believe in a number of races. I don't remember the specifics, myself.

In the course of some track outing, the chassis failed at the bulkhead, I don't remember correctly but I believe it was under braking, and it just broke under load. This didn't happen as a result of a crash, as shown by the lack of other marks on the vehicle.

The reason why this happened, and why you don't EVER have to be suspect of this happening in a real F1 car, is that this happened PURELY due to fatigue. The component in question- the chassis- has a life span just like any other part of the race car, and by the end of the season is past is designed life. Thus, it is going to be more suspect to fatigue failures than in season. It also could have been the machined bulkhead itself that failed that forced the incorrect load path through the chassis, but either way the way that it broke is a classic example of failure in a fatigued part.

The part was simply past it's life span, and it's the owners fault for not keeping up on proper maintenance that this happened. Simple as that. Parts can't be designed to last forever in a racing environment, and he should have been doing proper checks to ensure that it was in good shape.

If it was that he tapped something, the same explanation applies, just that the forces would be increased.

But regardless, this didn't happen as a result of him crashing, so you can't use it as evidence of it.

I think it's so ridiculous that this picture gets bandied about as an example of why these cars aren't safe.

[F1Fanatic.co.uk]

For what it's worth, I've never seen that picture anywhere other than here.

[tidytracks]

Originally posted by prty


So for example here the safety equipment did also what it was suposed to do? The cockpit is supossed to be intact always.

If he is still with us, it's all down to luck.

You can't compare that (especially given the context given above) with Viso's crash.

In viso's instance, the car did it's job as he has nothing but a bruise on his hand and foot. For an accident of that ferocity, that's an incredible outcome.

Yes, I agree, luck has a big part to play. It always does in this game.

But in a way, he was also lucky that the car was as strong as it was.

[Ross Stonefeld]

But if he had been killed you couldn't also say the car didn't do his job. That accident was a coin flip. If anything it was far more dangerous than it normally would have been.

[vanfriends]

There will always be accidents and people will die in them. Ironically, Viso survived in Magny-Cours on Saturday while three others didn't, yet nobody talks about the safety of helicopters. I'm not saying they shouldn't pay attention to safety but the risks will always be there no matter what they do. People even have fatal falling accidents, although walking certainly is not considered to be dangerous. A chance always plays its part in this world.

[prty]

Originally posted by Jackman
But does that have to do with anything? Tidytracks was referring to GP2 and the FIA crash tests, not a home build car.

He said Viso was OK, therefore the safety equipment did their job, and I don't think that logic is correct. I didn't link that picture to compare F1 vs GP2 cockpits, and that it's home made it's irrelevant in the point I'm trying to make, as the guy in the picture was OK also, but I think you'll agree that the equipment didn't work as it should.

Also, I'm not refering only to the car safety, but also the circuit safety.

[Jackman]

The car worked exactly as it should - it absorbed the impact forces and kept them away from Viso, which is what they're designed to do.

You could argue that he was nonetheless lucky to survive this freak accident, and you'd be correct - by my reckoning he was only a few centimetres away from a fatal impact - but that's got nothing to do with the design of the car, as anyone who has seen it can tell you that it did precisely what it was designed to do, namely to keep as much of the impact forces away from the driver.

[Hacklerf]

Jesus, ive just seen that crash, stunned.

amazing how no one was truly hurt

[tidytracks]

Originally posted by prty


He said Viso was OK, therefore the safety equipment did their job, and I don't think that logic is correct. I didn't link that picture to compare F1 vs GP2 cockpits, and that it's home made it's irrelevant in the point I'm trying to make, as the guy in the picture was OK also, but I think you'll agree that the equipment didn't work as it should.

Also, I'm not refering only to the car safety, but also the circuit safety.

Alright, let me clarify.

That Viso was OK owed much to luck. But in the same breath,the safety equipment did everything it was supposed to do. Had the car not been put through the crash tests that it had been he might have sustained far worse injuries.

The link to the photo however remains completely irrelevant as you are comparing two differently designed, differently crash tested cars.

It's like comparing a kart accident and a champ car accident. You just can't do it.

For a start, the car in your photo was 1999-spec. The GP2 car was built initially in 2005, so we're talking about a 6 year improvement in safety tests as the GP2 car underwent the FIA safety checks and passed them, before the series was launched.

It's fair to say that in your photo, the equipment probably didnt work as it should.

But as I have already mentioned, you can't compare the two incidents.

[prty]

Originally posted by Jackman
The car worked exactly as it should - it absorbed the impact forces and kept them away from Viso, which is what they're designed to do.

You could argue that he was nonetheless lucky to survive this freak accident, and you'd be correct - by my reckoning he was only a few centimetres away from a fatal impact - but that's got nothing to do with the design of the car, as anyone who has seen it can tell you that it did precisely what it was designed to do, namely to keep as much of the impact forces away from the driver.

Well, I think the cockpit broke too easily, and in a way that should never happen (it was cut in half in the zone of the driver's hips). I think the car is designed in a way that everything that isn't the cockpit collapses to absorb energy, while the cockpit must remain intact always. (See Legge's comments after her crash). Of course there are accidents where the cockpit will break no matter what as no material would support it, but I think Viso's wasn't one of those.

Edit: Maybe in the pictures I posted you can't see it clearly but it ended up like this:



And I'm talking all the time about this, not the fact that the wall hit the car near the head.

[tidytracks]

And that's exactly the point we're making.

The FIA F1 crash tests regulate the rear, side and front.

A car landing upside down on a concrete wall at close to 300kph with the side of the tub taking the impact, is a completely freak occurence.

There is little that can be done to protect that part of the driver as it is between the front and side crash structures.

But despite this fact, and the ferocity of the accident, Viso emerged with concussion and no broken bones.

So yes, the tub split, but as Jackman said, in its disintegration, it kept the forces away from the driver.

Even five years ago, an F1 car might not have stood up as well to that kind of shunt. The FIA and Dallara have done a good job in making sure that car is pretty bloody strong!

[Jackman]

Originally posted by prty
Well, I think the cockpit broke too easily, and in a way that should never happen (it was cut in half in the zone of the driver's hips). I think the car is designed in a way that everything that isn't the cockpit collapses to absorb energy, while the cockpit must remain intact always. (See Legge's comments after her crash). Of course there are accidents where the cockpit will break no matter what as no material would support it, but I think Viso's wasn't one of those.

The cockpit didn't break too easily - it absorbed the multiple impacts thrown at it and the driver was able to walk away, which means it did exactly what it was supposed to do. The tub fractured, sure, but it did that while keeping the impact forces off the driver. Dallara should put that chassis on display in their reception, because it worked perfectly.

By the way, you really have to let go of that photo of yours - your car there fell apart on track because of age and poor maintenance, and had nothing whatsoever to do with an impact.

The thing is, I've seen huge impacts and the aftermath - I still shudder when I think about the Jani/Yoshimoto impact in Spa 05, where both cars effectively disintergrated, and yet both drivers walked away with nothing but bruises, and if you saw what was left of both chassis you'd assume there was no way for the drivers to survive. And I saw what was left of Viso's car - yes, there is a huge tear through the tub, and no there's not much left of the chassis, but that's not the point.

The point of driver protection in car design is not what is left of the car when the impact is over, but what is left of the driver.

[tidytracks]

Originally posted by Jackman
The point of driver protection in car design is not what is left of the car when the impact is over, but what is left of the driver.

I don't think anyone could have put it better or with more authority.

Bravo.

[CWeil]

Originally posted by prty
but I think you'll agree that the equipment didn't work as it should.

Also, I'm not refering only to the car safety, but also the circuit safety.

Did you even read the other posts?

[conkeso]

No love for Villa? Great win for the 19 year old

[CWeil]

I think everyone is in agreement that it was a good job! Good weekend to have it for RE, too.

[David M. Kane]

Inches from another Cervert-type accident...

[tidytracks]

There's a great blog online, all about the GP2 weekend in France.

Beautifully written, it's a stunning insight.

GP2 France: Blog

[F1Fanatic.co.uk]

I'm surprised nothing has come from the officials about the Glock/Zuber accident. It was completely and utterly unnecessary.

[Youichi]

Originally posted by conkeso
No love for Villa? Great win for the 19 year old

He doesn't need any love from us:-

When we got over to the stand there was a huge, heaving crowd, all jostling to get a view of the drivers as they sat down out front. Unfortunately for most of them one of the drivers at the first signing was Javier Villa, who probably couldn't be seen until he jumped up onto the chair.

Not that this bothered one young girl in the crowd: as she made her way in the queue up to the diminutive driver she beamed, handing over the photo card to be signed before following it with a piece of paper with a phone number on it. Startled, he quickly glanced over to see if his parents were watching before slipping the number into his pocket, smiling beatifically. The smile didn't leave his face all day.

From
http://blog.gp2serie...d-two-barcelona

[wingwalker]

will live timing be available anytime soon? or is it already?

[noikeee]

Filipe Albuquerque confirmed to replace Viso at Silverstone:

http://autosport.cli...s.stories/29099

Nice opportunity for him (although unfortunate that it results from the injury of another driver), but I'm not sure he's ready for this.

[F1Fanatic.co.uk]

Originally posted by wingwalker
will live timing be available anytime soon? or is it already?

Hear, hear. Trying to figure out what's going on watching Eurosport is impossible.

[Dudley]

Originally posted by F1Fanatic.co.uk
I'm surprised nothing has come from the officials about the Glock/Zuber accident. It was completely and utterly unnecessary.

And very very funny.

I think the officials believe they've been punished enough.

[noikeee]

Originally posted by Dudley


And very very funny.

I think the officials believe they've been punished enough.

I like both drivers, but I agree, that was an hilarious crash if i ever seen one.

[Ross Stonefeld]

http://www.autosport...ge/l_photo-1b-2


Pictures, thousand words, etc.

http://www.autosport...dex.php/id/1008

[F1Fanatic.co.uk]

You can't really add anything to that can you? He was unbelievably close to hitting the bridge.

[carbonfibre]

This one really scared me:

http://www.autosport...ge/l_photo-3b-2

That was one lucky marshall!

[Tuffy]

Seeing this close-up pictures makes the whole incident more scary and its unbelivable lucky that noone is seriously injured.

[Ross Stonefeld]

I dont understand what is keeping the tub intact. I mean, clearly it's broken, but it hasn't left the car and still protected Viso to an extent when the car landed and continued sliding.

[Jackman]

The structural integrity of the carbon fibre, at a guess. When I saw what was left of the car I gasped, but I also realised that Dallara had built a might car - they should stick the tub, as is, in their foyer as an advert for how good their cars are.

[tidytracks]

One thing that worries me about all this is the cable that appears to be attached to the right front. I've never seen this other than in these photos.

With the tub weakened in the impact with the wall, what worries me most is that it's the force created by the wrenching of this cable on the right fornt that could have caused the pressure on the tub to pull the nose around and snap the survival cell.

In the first photo you can see the cable attached. In the second, it's still attached, and as you can see the angle of the nose is at far greater odds to where it was initially.

So my question is, what is that cable, and what on earth was it attached to?

Maybe its something about trackside safety the FIA could take a look at?

[CWeil]

That looks to just be some electrical cabling picked up from nearby the advertising banner. This would not have sheared the cell in two though- since it would've been acting through the suspension, it would've ripped it off at it's mounting points well before that would happen to the tub. The cable was not what broke the side of the cell.

[wingwalker]

highlist of the second nurburgring race