44 replies to this topic

[grocons]

I wonder if any of you out there can help.

I visited the Goodwood Festival of Speed this year and one of the highlights was the display of five of the six Bugatti Royales. I believe that Lord March did try to get the sixth from Las Vegas but couldn't pursuade the owners to participate.

I am due to visit Las Vegas for a couple of weeks and am flying out tomorrow. I was wondering if the vehicle is on public display anywhere in Vegas and if so could anybody inform me of where it can be seen.

Thanks.

[Ray Bell]

Maybe Buford knows... he lives there...

Not only that, he's prone to taking people under his wing and showing them around.

[MoMurray]

I dont know for sure whether the car is in the collection or not (my guess is it is), but a very interesting car collection is that of Ralph Ingolstadt and it is open to the public. Go to the Imperial Palace Casino on the Strip and the fifth floor of the parking garage has been converted into a museum. Well worth a visit.

Mo.

[AMICALEMANS]

Nope, there is no Royale in Vegas (only Imperial ! )

The Royale 41.150 (black and yellow with horsecarriage body type) is in California at http://www.blackhawkmuseum.org/

And a seven one, the Esder replica (which some true Royale parts) is at Mulhouse.

i am a lucky guy, i saw the all Royale and now i can die

[alansart]

Tom Wheatcroft couldn't buy one so had one built from scratch for a mere £2,000,000!!

[dretceterini]

Originally posted by alansart
Tom Wheatcroft couldn't buy one so had one built from scratch for a mere £2,000,000!!

He could have bought hand made miniatures of all 11 bodies on the 7 chassis for a lot les than that

[David M. Kane]

You have to admit 5 out of 6 ain't bad.

[Ray Bell]

...as long as you don't have to replace the crankshaft.

Tom Wheatcroft's replica undoubtedly has an airship engine, right?

So was the balance built up on a genuine Bugatti chassis, or was all the rest of it an effort to keep British replica-making cottage industry alive after they stopped making 250Fs?

[David Birchall]

I think that would be a rail car engine Ray.

I was at Pebble Beach in 1979 (?) when all the Royales were present. Unfortunately, I had just stuffed my car into the armco at turn nine and was in no mood to appreciate the show.
David B

[Ray Bell]

Right, rail car engine...

Brain and fingers not in same gear. Did you eventually sort out turn 9?

[David Birchall]

Yes, sort of. The last time I raced there I was sliding my 26R through there in pursuit of a ALFA TZ2 that had better cornering than I did while I had more power-go figure.

[David M. Kane]

I saw a Royale at a party in St. Micheals, Maryland a few years ago., I believe it belonged to a Judge North, Jofn North? He use to take cars to the Monterey Historics regularly.

[Frank S]

In 1960 or so I saw a Royale at the "Kings of the Road" museum in/near Ontario, California. Dark red and black, if memory serves. There is an itch in my mind that says the car went to Harrah when the freeway moved everything along Rte 60. I seem to remember not being able to see over the bonnet, and remarking the bonnet was as long as my MG TD (parked in the dirt outside the front door).

Another itch says within the last ten years or so I saw the photo I made of it, but no scratch, yet.

--
Frank S

[TooTall]

If you look closely you can spot all six original Royales. This was the first time they were ever all in the same location at the same time, Pebble Beach Concours, 1985.



Cheers,
Kurt O.

[AMICALEMANS]

Who said it exist a Dark Red and Black Royale ? It never exist ! (maybe you saw a little Royale the 46 type)

The white car from Ford Museum, was black before restauration by the previous owner (a GM executive)

The Park Ward Limo was always black (owners Foster,then J. Lemon Burton, then US man Mr Shakespeare, then bought by Schlumpf in 1960 with 20 others Bugatti !=

The kelner Coach was also black (sold by Bugatti family to Cunningham )

The horse carriage was always Yellow and black

The ex-esders (wich was green) became the Thome-Patenotre car in black and blue grey now owned by Volkswagen AG thru Bugatti

The Coupé Napoleon was always, first black and then blue and black (bought by Schlumph to Bugatti family)

dont know about Wheatcroft replica, but he is "stupid" to build a replica with an airplane engine, it was easier to find a Royale engine, just because Bugatti use this engine for railways Autorail (4 engines in one Autorail) there will still ins ervices until the begining of the sixties ! They put one of these engines in the Esder replica

[alansart]

Originally posted by AMICALEMANS
dont know about Wheatcroft replica, but he is "stupid" to build a replica with an airplane engine, it was easier to find a Royale engine, just because Bugatti use this engine for railways Autorail (4 engines in one Autorail) there will still ins ervices until the begining of the sixties ! They put one of these engines in the Esder replica

According to this months Motorsport the Wheatcroft Replica is a perfect copy. The engine, chassis, body etc were built from scratch. He also had 5 spare blocks and chassis made.

[AMICALEMANS]

do you have any pic of the replica ? Wich body did he choose ?

i found it it is an 2/3 scale replica of the coupe Napoleon ! funny !

[alansart]

There's a photo in Motorsport. I could scan it but it's probably against copyright to post it here.

[Terry Walker]

The Royale, if you think about it objectively, is a fairly absurd car, but to my eyes the Coupe Napoleon has probably the most perfect proportions and profile you are ever likely to find. It's easily the pick of the bunch.

During my "vintage car" period I lusted after that car. It's a sobering thought that my current classic, at 6.23 litres, is considered fairly extravagant, but the Bugatti engine is twice that size.

Still, magnificent.

[Peter Morley]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
...as long as you don't have to replace the crankshaft.

Tom Wheatcroft's replica undoubtedly has an airship engine, right?

So was the balance built up on a genuine Bugatti chassis, or was all the rest of it an effort to keep British replica-making cottage industry alive after they stopped making 250Fs?

You meant railcar engine of course!
Apparently he bought a railcar engine but there were enough differences that he decided to make the whole engine as well.

The Royale project is mentioned in this months Motorsport.

Seems that he made a few spare parts just in case...... I think the reality is once you have set everything up it doesn't cost much more to have 5 of something made than 1.

His current project is to make 5 Mercedes W125s, so that people can see them being used as they were meant to be - that will be worth seeing!

[McGuire]

Originally posted by AMICALEMANS
The white car from Ford Museum, was black before restauration by the previous owner (a GM executive)

The GM executive was Charles A. Chayne, then chief engineer at Buick. A rather dedicated enthusiast, Chayne was also an early president of the VMCCA and drove the pace car at the Indy 500 in 1939. He bought the Weinberger Cabriolet (41 121) for $425 on Long island, NY in 1943 and eventually performed a typical period restoration -- enthusiastic but not terribly authentic. There are a number of things that are "wrong" about the Fuchs-Chayne Royale, including the wheels, but that was the done thing at the time. Chayne owned several Bugattis, including a 57S in which he installed a Buick V8.

[AMICALEMANS]

The wheatcroft Royale is smaller than the real one, its a scale replica ! so it is not a real replica like the esders. Its only an "evocation" !

[alansart]

Originally posted by AMICALEMANS
The wheatcroft Royale is smaller than the real one, its a scale replica ! so it is not a real replica like the esders. Its only an "evocation" !

I'm sure it's an "evocation" but why a smaler scale replica. Mr Wheatcoft tends to things properly!

[TooTall]

I've not been able to find anything that says the Wheatcroft Royale is scaled down from the original. Everything I have found describes it as an exact copy accurate to the last nut and bolt. It seems strange to me that he would go to all the trouble to make a scaled down copy especially since he had loan of a real one for some time that he could photograph and measure.

Cheers,
Kurt

[AMICALEMANS]

If it is this car, http://forum.bugatti...lbum=158&pos=10, its a scaled down replica.

If it is not, i apologize... AND NO I AM VERY CONFUSED, because after some research i found that the underscaled replica, is not the Tom's Royale !

please post a link with the pic of it !
http://www.bugattipa...lica/index.html


http://autoscollecti...ques-t57-10.htm IT IS ALSO IN ENGLISH

[Scuderia CC]

My two favourites are : The Roadster of Armand Esders and the Coupe Napoleon

Here on this wonderful picture, Jean Bugatti with the Roadster of Armand Esders :
http://forum.bugatti...ugatti_1932.jpg

[Ray Bell]

Isn't that huge! I think you probably need to stand next to one to appreciate them fully... surely?

Bugatti would never be able to say anything about Bentleys being trucks after building them, could he?

[kayemod]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
Isn't that huge! I think you probably need to stand next to one to appreciate them fully... surely?

Almost twenty feet long, and just two seats with a one-seat dickey, just about the most elegant car I've ever seen. I suppose we have to call the Esders car a replica, but since it was built from a lot of genuine Bugatti parts by ex-Bugatti workers, in many respect it's as genuine as any other Royale, it just wasn't built at Molsheim. The Tom Wheatcroft car was also built from original drawings, so that's half genuine as well, and the tale of how he got those drawings is most entertaining. I'm sure the car is full size, and Tom's wonderful memoir 'Thunder in the Park' tells you all you need to know about it. That man is a National Treasure.

[TooTall]

The Royales are all so beautifully proportioned that without a person or something else in the photo to provide scale, you really can't tell how massive they are. Note also, the Esders car has no headlamps. Apparently Mr. Esders did not need to drive after dark. It's sometimes hard to believe the massive Royale and the diminutive Type 35 could come from the same pen.

Cheers,
Kurt O.

[T54]

The kelner Coach was also black (sold by Bugatti family to Cunningham )

I am quite familiar with this car since I saw it often and was offered to drive it for a few miles by my late friend John Burgess, then curator of the Cunningham Museum on Baker Street in Costa Mesa. The car was ALWAYS dark blue with black fenders, and was sporting its original paint the whole time it was in the museum. It was also a lot easier to drive and more nimble than the several pre-war Lagondas and Bentleys I also drove to exercise them from the museum floor. At least it could shift gears without having to be an expert es-crashbox. I also believe that the Kellner coach was the most aesthetically balanced of all the Royales, personal designer opinion of course.

T54

[ray b]

I walked out of the super sub shop on SW 8st in miami one nite in 73
and #41 150, Berline de Voyage by Bugatti, was in the parking lot
or some other royal in yellow and black
my first thought was what an odd huge car !!!!
where did that come from????
home build???????
so of course I walked over to look closer
the bugatti standard of workmanship was there even in the smallest bits
and bigger ones toooo like the huge wheels
this was no home built or fake car

I asked the wife to go home and get her nikon and return
but she was in a mood and didnot want to bother with some old car in poor light
so I regret not having pictures
I believe the car was owned by a mr N of miami springs
and was sold shortly after as mr N was a flipper/semi dealer in odd cars

[dretceterini]

Originally posted by T54

I am quite familiar with this car since I saw it often and was offered to drive it for a few miles by my late friend John Burgess, then curator of the Cunningham Museum on Baker Street in Costa Mesa. The car was ALWAYS dark blue with black fenders, and was sporting its original paint the whole time it was in the museum. It was also a lot easier to drive and more nimble than the several pre-war Lagondas and Bentleys I also drove to exercise them from the museum floor. At least it could shift gears without having to be an expert es-crashbox. I also believe that the Kellner coach was the most aesthetically balanced of all the Royales, personal designer opinion of course.

T54

As far as I am aware, the Kellner car was always black, and was built with only the top of the engine hood and the trim around the windows yellow, but then the yellow was changed to dark blue.

Black and yellow version:
http://www.hecominia...age10/400_3.jpg

Black and blue version:
http://www.forum-aut...1_kellner_1.jpg

[Dennis Currington]

Originally posted by TooTall
If you look closely you can spot all six original Royales. This was the first time they were ever all in the same location at the same time, Pebble Beach Concours, 1985.



Cheers,
Kurt O.

I too was fortunate enough to be there in 1985. My eyes remember it well, however, what a time to have my camera battery fail! No photos at all of those beautiful cars. Thanks for posting it,

[McGuire]

Originally posted by kayemod


Almost twenty feet long, and just two seats with a one-seat dickey, just about the most elegant car I've ever seen. I suppose we have to call the Esders car a replica, but since it was built from a lot of genuine Bugatti parts by ex-Bugatti workers, in many respect it's as genuine as any other Royale, it just wasn't built at Molsheim. The Tom Wheatcroft car was also built from original drawings, so that's half genuine as well, and the tale of how he got those drawings is most entertaining. I'm sure the car is full size, and Tom's wonderful memoir 'Thunder in the Park' tells you all you need to know about it. That man is a National Treasure.

These two cars are magnificent to look at and more than worthy of discussion. However, in no sense are they genuine Bugatti Royales. These are modern-day duplicates.

[alansart]

Originally posted by McGuire


These two cars are magnificent to look at and more than worthy of discussion. However, in no sense are they genuine Bugatti Royales. These are modern-day duplicates.

Agreed. But do these replicas change the value of the originals. The Wheatcroft car and spares are quoted at costing £2,000,000 to make. Is that more than the originals are worth?

[kayemod]

Originally posted by alansart


Agreed. But do these replicas change the value of the originals. The Wheatcroft car and spares are quoted at costing £2,000,000 to make. Is that more than the originals are worth?

The Schlumpf Esders car is unlikely ever to come onto the market, but it's quality, and I'd say even provenance, is such that I'd have thought it would fetch as much as any one of the 'genuine' cars. I'm not really disagreeing with you McGuire, but have you seen it?

[McGuire]

I don't believe the replica Esders would bring real Royale-level money. But then a Royale so seldom comes on market that it is difficult to determine just what one is worth, and some will be worth more than others.
Also, timing is everything. If a Royale is selling into an upward market it will be worth millions more than in a down market. And in a hot market, a weak car gains relative value as demand exceeds the supply of strong cars... but in a weak market, a weak car becomes virtually worthless. Relative to the six real Royales the Esders is a weak car, no getting around it.

My problem with the Esders is that up close there are some things wrong about it, mechanically and cosmetically. That's provenance aside: There is no disputing that it is a replica, a knockoff, assembled around a railcar engine. It was built long after Ettore and Jean Bugatti had passed, and years after the Bugatti factory had ceased auto production. It is not the genuine article. I believe the Schlumpfs themselves recognized the illusory nature of what they were attempting once they got into it and saw what they had, as they never got around to finishing it.

The replica Esders car would no doubt sell for "a lot", but for markedly less than a real Royale in the same auction tent on the same day. I'm sure of it. And if for some reason say, three Royales came on market at the same time, you could hardly get anything for the Esders. You would have to curb the car for a year or two and wait.

[Pedro 917]

Bugatti Royale as seen on the Essen Techno Classica Fair, March 2007:

[Scuderia CC]

Another picture of Pebble Beach 1985 :

[bradbury west]

Esders car looked good to me at "the Schlumpf" in the late 80s"





plus spares...........



Roger Lund.

[kayemod]

You're absolutely right Roger, that Schlumpf/Esders car is just about the most impressive and elegant device I've ever seen on four wheels. I'm not disagreeing with much that McGuire says, and maybe it wouldn't 'fetch' as much as some of the others, as if that was any true judgement of worth, but we're into Oscar Wilde's definition of a cynic here, and that's the Royale for me. Far more stylish than anything at Goodwood, with the possible exception of the coupé Napoleon. If there was such a thing as a 'Peoples' Choice' award for car museum exhibits, that car would win it every time. I've been to the Schlumpf Museum a couple of times, the last time in 2006. My Wife is just about as 'not into cars' as it's possible to get, and I had to practically drag her away from the place after almost six hours, she kept on going back to look at that Esders styling masterpiece. I've seen all the Royales now, and that's the one that stays in my memory.

[McGuire]

As I said, it's a beautiful car. However, it is not a genuine Bugatti Royale, no matter how attractive its appearance. It's a copy, and not a particularly authentic one. If these distinctions no longer matter, this hobby dissolves itself into meaninglessness.

I will agree with you about the financial worth considerations, noting only that I did not raise that issue -- I only responded to it. In light of Mr. Wilde's famous observation, what if we were to encounter the Esders copy parked next to the real Esders car, which still exists but with different bodywork? Do we persuade ourselves that both these cars represent the same accomplishment? Are we prepared to engage in that level of dishonesty with ourselves?

Not me. Ettore Bugatti created the Bugatti Royale, not the Schlumpf brothers. The Bugatti Royale was an original achievement in art and design. Any copy, no matter how exact, is only a clever and not terribly difficult exercise in blacksmithing.

[olav glasius]

In the late 80 ties when the Esder replica was finished . All Royales where at Mulhouse for that occasion.
I was invited to that party and had the possibility to sit behind the wheel of all Royales.How many people
can say the same? The Esder seating position is very bad,the steering wheel is very close,unbelievable
for such a big car. On that occasion when I was outside for a cigarette,suddenly two Mercedes arrived
one SEC and one G jeep. Out of the jeep came a wheelchair and out of the 500 SEC came Fritz Schlumpf,
illigal from Switserland. His wife drove him inside to the statue of his mother,the whole party ,including Michel Bugatti,stood around,the director of the museum was trembling. He stood there for 10 minutes without
sayoing anything,then he was pushed to see the Esders ,also without saying anything,then she took him
to the Ettore Royale. He stood there and said: This is the most beautiful car in the world ,they also stole
from me and off he went to his car and back to Switserland.Leaving everybody ashtonised behind.
A very special occasion,never to forget. I also spoke on the same party an old fiend of Fritz from
the Czech republic,he told me a story about Fritz. The friend was at the house of Fritz and underneath
the Ettore Royale was parked. The friend asked: Fritz May I sit in the car. Fritz answered No, He
himself never had sat in the car , as an honour to Ettore.

Olav Glasius


PS
I have seen the Donington copy,it looks not bad,in is 1: 1 scale, the smaller scale replica was made ,as far as I know,in France for a film ,not accurate and with a modern V 8 engine.

[McGuire]

Thanks for the personal account, very interesting.

[swede917]

Originally posted by T54

I am quite familiar with this car since I saw it often and was offered to drive it for a few miles by my late friend John Burgess, then curator of the Cunningham Museum on Baker Street in Costa Mesa. The car was ALWAYS dark blue with black fenders, and was sporting its original paint the whole time it was in the museum. It was also a lot easier to drive and more nimble than the several pre-war Lagondas and Bentleys I also drove to exercise them from the museum floor. At least it could shift gears without having to be an expert es-crashbox. I also believe that the Kellner coach was the most aesthetically balanced of all the Royales, personal designer opinion of course.

T54

When I was in High School our Auto Shop class went on a field trip to the Cunningham Museum. When we arrived the Royale was just outside the the large roll up door on the side of the Museum. The gentleman who was giving us a tour took us over to the car and stood a Nickel (5p) on it's side on top of the engine and proceeded to start the engine without the nickel falling over. I always remembered that big beautiful car and how lucky we were to see it run, great stuff. From then on it was great to learn the history and stories of these special cars, the sale of John W Shakephere's Bugatti's (including his Royale) was one those great auto stories.

http://www.bugattire...e28/shakesp.htm