30 replies to this topic

[Jager]

It was always my understanding that Le Mans cars had to theoretically be two seaters. For open cockpit cars that meant there had to at least be space in theory for a second seat, which dates back to the days of riding mechanics. These rules have remained largely unchanged since the commencement of the race.

I was therefore wondering how WR got around those rule at Le Mans from 1993 to 1996 with their single seat LM93, the only possible explanation being that as a French team they were exempt from the normal rules that the ACO applied to all other nationalities !

I haven't of the top of my head found any other cars in the history of Le Mans, classic or modern, that had an F1 style single seat appearance. Were there others ?

[f1steveuk]

Define "seat"! I have seen a square of foam, a couple of pieces of old, seat belt, contained within the car under the bodywork, and it's been accepted, but I wouldn't want to sit there!!

Bit like the rule saying you have to carry a spare wheel, or going way back, laps with the roof up, before lowering it!!

[Rob Miller]

Cooper-Climax T39 'Bobtails' ran in 1955, 1956 and 1957, one finishing in the top ten and second in class one lap behind a Lotus Eleven.

[Barry Boor]

True, Rob, but they were all genuine 2 seaters...

[Roger Clark]

Originally posted by Barry Boor
True, Rob, but they were all genuine 2 seaters...

In 1955 they had central seats, as did many other cars.

[Jager]

In 1955 they had central seats, as did many other cars.

Roger, most of the cars I'm aware of in 1955 (and even later years) may have had the appearance of a single seater, but the driver was seated on the right, with a removeable cowling on the left hand side that covered the theoretical passenger seat. The D-Type Jaguars, Aston Martin's, Bristol's, Mercedes 300 SL, Ferrari 750's, Cunninghams, Fraser Nash all had the same configuration. Technically, they were two seaters, even if the second seat wasn't visible.

Here's a model of the '55 Cooper that fits the above description - its certainly not a central seat.

[RTH]

That WR is certainly way outside the spirit of the regulations, maybe outside the letter of them as well ?

What I wonder would the ACO have said if it had been Colin Chapman putting the car through technical scrutineering ?

[kayemod]

Originally posted by RTH

What I wonder would the ACO have said if it had been Colin Chapman putting the car through technical scrutineering ?

I suspect that Mr Chapman would have reached for his famous ruler, it worked well enough for him in past conflicts with the French.

[Roger Clark]

Originally posted by Jager


Roger, most of the cars I'm aware of in 1955 (and even later years) may have had the appearance of a single seater, but the driver was seated on the right, with a removeable cowling on the left hand side that covered the theoretical passenger seat. The D-Type Jaguars, Aston Martin's, Bristol's, Mercedes 300 SL, Ferrari 750's, Cunninghams, Fraser Nash all had the same configuration. Technically, they were two seaters, even if the second seat wasn't visible.

Here's a model of the '55 Cooper that fits the above description - its certainly not a central seat.

i always thought the cooper had its seat on the centre-line of the car; Doug Nye's Cooper Cars says so. Denis Jenkinson's report of the 1955 Le Mans race referred to central driving seat Panhards, DBs and Coopers. They were all technically two seaters.

[rudi]

Here the single seater DB Panhard at Le Mans 1955.
There was no space for a second seat.

Also the Nardi was a single seater: on the right side the driver, in the middle the radiator and on the left the
engine.

[2F-001]

Isn't the angle of view in the picture of the Cooper model simply misleading because the cockpit surround is raised and the tops of the doors markedly sloped? I took a whole series of pictures of a similar car for someone a couple of years ago - I'll have to dig them out to make sure I'm not talking tosh, but this view looks the same as the central-seat Coopers I've seen.

[David Beard]

Originally posted by Jager


Roger, most of the cars I'm aware of in 1955 (and even later years) may have had the appearance of a single seater, but the driver was seated on the right, with a removeable cowling on the left hand side that covered the theoretical passenger seat. The D-Type Jaguars, Aston Martin's, Bristol's, Mercedes 300 SL, Ferrari 750's, Cunninghams, Fraser Nash all had the same configuration. Technically, they were two seaters, even if the second seat wasn't visible.

Here's a model of the '55 Cooper that fits the above description - its certainly not a central seat.

Jager..talking to Roger like that about D Types etc brings to mind something about eggs and grandmothers.
And like Tony I think there is some illusion going on with the photo of the model.

Page 119 of DCN's Cooper book shows Bobtail No. 47 looking very centrally seated. The caption confirms central seats were legal in 1955.

[rudi]

There were also such cars at the 1954 Le Mans 24 Hours.
Jean Behra Gordini

[D-Type]

I think the 1950's central seat cars had a second seat tucked away on one side. Then the regulations were changed to two seats one on each side of the centreline .

As for the WR cars - weren't they running in a separate class for cars eligible for a French domestic series who were invited along to fill out the field?

[rudi]

Originally posted by D-Type
I think the 1950's central seat cars had a second seat tucked away on one side. Then the regulations were changed to two seats one on each side of the centreline

That was true for the Gordini. A seat was arranged into the left side for the Tour de France.
It was not the case for the DB and other small cars.

[Haine Kane]

Hello English friends,

Sorry for my english...

But read several books to find the first single-seater, but it's difficult because a lot of cars have a second seat but often close by different materiel (leather, body...)
Often the second place was too small for an other person...

RUDI present the DB in 1955 but the year before DB n#56 is a single-seater like the GORDINI n#19

I think that the most popular single-seater from Le Mans is the NARDI in 1955

http://www.velocetod...mber 06/cm7.jpg

Bye
HK

[GPLEagle]

The AutoSport show this year had a collection of Le Mans cars, including the Jaguar C-type and D-type.

The C-type had the seat on the right, and a small plate covering the left-hand side of the cockpit, but fundamentally a genuine two seater.
C-type

The D-type had the seat on the right as well, but had the instruments covering the left-hand side of the cockpit; technically a two seater, but very uncomfortable at best!!
D-type

I am not sure the rules stated a minimum size for the passenger

In the same fashion, I believe either Toyota or Nissan had the required luggage space - and then put the fuel tank in it...

[Sharman]

Having driven a bob-tail Cooper I can vouch for a vestigial seat tucked away on the left. Impossible to sit unless cut off at the waist and having no torso or head

[Paul Parker]

Regarding the D types and Le Mans, in 1956 the rules were changed and full width screens became obligatory whilst the seat cushions had to be a minimum of 19.7 inches wide (circa 500mm).

These new regulations that also affected engine sizes presumably put an end to the quasi single seater configurations. As for comfort, on the original works D types the cars had a curved dashboard angled toward the driver, but the passenger seat was useable albeit without a screen, and the C type passenger arrangements were adequate as per the Mille Miglia. In 1955 the new works long nose cars had a few bits and pieces in and on the passenger seat plus a CAV fuel filter and plumbing that fitted between the seats (to counter the recurring dirty fuel that was a period feature at the Sarthe), so these were unuseable.

However by 1956 all this had gone, although of course passenger seats in two seater racing cars were never going to be comfortable, they just had to conform to the regulations.

[West3]

Originally posted by rudi
Also the Nardi was a single seater: on the right side the driver, in the middle the radiator and on the left the engine.

Indeed!

[Jager]

Here's another picture of the Nardi I found. I vaguely recall hearing that Nardi claimed there was a comparment for a passenger behind the engine, but looking at the picture it seems unlikely :

[Allen Brown]

Bobtails were entered in F2 races in late 1956 and for part of 1957 and Jack Brabham's initial Bristol-powered Cooper F1 ('T40') was a Bobtail. The first Cooper F2, the 1956 Mk 1 ('T41') was just a Bobtail with the sides cut off.

There wasn't a huge difference between a formula car and a sports car in the 1950s. For example, Porsche's 718/2 Formula 2 car was just a modification to their 718 sports car.

Anyone know when the rule changed so that the two seats had to be either side of the centre line? That rule was in place by the time of the Zerex Special in 1962 but I don't know when it came in.

Allen

[AMICALEMANS]

The rules for Le Mans was "must have a place for a passenger and a place for a suitcase" (look the rear of a P3 you will see the boot !). So that mean for the DB and the NARDI, that a space was "available" for a passenger. On the Nardi it was in the center (for a very small passenger !) On the DB it was on the side of the driver. In 1992, they change the rules not for WR, but because ACO was "struggle for life" with only 28 cars at start with 2 single seater (Peugeot 905 Spyder : WR and RenCar Orion). It was just because Bernie wanted to kill Le Mans... and so ACO accepted anything... Even single seater with a middle centre driver was accepted. That's was the point !

Nowadays rules are 2 seaters, but have a closest look to all cars and you wont find a second seat ! Even in the Aston Martin, the passenger place is taken by the AC !

[dretceterini]

I believe that part of the rules for the central seater WR/Peugeots was that they had to have a metal chassis and that true 2-seaters could have composite chassis.

[AMICALEMANS]

Nope ! it was just because Welter had ask ACO about a new little prototype category. And at this time ACO was in search for that kind of car.... It was an "afterwar with Bernie" regulation...

[Vicuna]

Quite a few single seaters at Le Mans in 1967.

[AMICALEMANS]

Lol during the F1 Grand Prix of ACF

[D-Type]

I've had alook at David Hodges' 1963 history of Le Mans. He has a photo of the 1955 Nardi with a hatch in the centre removed and a caption that says "... and absurd extreme: the Nardi which failed to finish in 1955. 'Passenger space' was provided between the booms." so that's how the Nardi complied.

He says that there was a major change of the Le Mans rules for 1956. In addition to an overall limit of 2.5 litres for prototypes he says: "They also laid down new body dimensions that were more appropriate to everyday sports than to two-seater racing cars. (The new measurements for interior width, for example, were 120 cm. instead of 90 cm., while the space for the 'passenger', although it could be covered in, allowed for a seat atleast 50 cm. wide.) At the same time a full width screen was made obligatory for all cars ~".

Then Cyril Posthumus in his World Sports Car Championship (1961) says that the revised version of Appendix C the FIA International Sporting Code was anounced at the end of 1956 and was almost a carbon copy of the 1956 Le Mans regulations without the capacity limit.

So from 1957, sports cars in international races including Le Mans had to be two seaters. Until the 90s ...

Peter Higham mentions a 'National sports-prototype' class in 1992 and 'Le Mans Prototype' class in 1993-95 won by a WR and a Debora which are presumably the single seaters referred to by Jager in post 1.

[AMICALEMANS]

In 1992, because of Bernie, ACO allowed WR and Orion Ren carto compete. these car was part of the 905 Spyder Peugeot French Championship. They also invite the Alfa Cup (the Debora was a 2 seaters) and even Pro Sport 3000 (but non of these english cars came to Le Mans ! Bernie's fault ?)

The new class in 1993 was LMP, which are the ancestors of LMP2. Until 1997, Several WR came, a Debora came also a Lucchini fron Italian ALFA CUP.

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by AMICALEMANS
and even Pro Sport 3000 (but non of these english cars came to Le Mans ! Bernie's fault ?)

Possibly my least favourite racing cars ever (well, maybe Formula First was worse). They looked funny, sounded wrong (old Ford Granada V6!), and weren't very fast. I didn't like them as a one-make series and when they started turning up in other things (British GT? WHAT? Historic Group C? WHAT?) I really started getting annoyed by them.

A load of them ended up being used in a miniseries of Maclean's The Way To Dusty Death. At least one of them was crudely painted up to look like a Sauber-Merc.

Shudder.

[r.atlos]

Originally posted by D-Type
I've had alook at David Hodges' 1963 history of Le Mans. He has a photo of the 1955 Nardi with a hatch in the centre removed and a caption that says "... and absurd extreme: the Nardi which failed to finish in 1955. 'Passenger space' was provided between the booms." so that's how the Nardi complied.

If my memory serves me well, the ACO forced "il dottore" Damonte to cut out a tube from the chassis to provide enough space for its potential "passenger". When the car crashed early during the race, Damonte claimed that it was due to a subsequent lack a stability ...

Not sure what the real cause of this crash was but even today I doubt that those missing inches of a tube had made that much a difference ...

By the way, AFAIR Damonte was a dispensing chemist from Torino.