45 replies to this topic

[Alfisti]

Am I the only one that thinks this is absurd? Firstly the front runners are penalised because the cars behind are suddenly right behind them and nopw there are not even any lapped cars to provide a small buffer as reward.

I see no valid reason for this rule, it stinks on all fronts. If they MUST get the lapped cars out of the way then let them through but they should remain a lap down IMHO.

[Wouter]

I agree, the entire present SC procedure is quite ridiculous. When it's at the start or end of a race it's OK, but near a pit window it's madness. So is the unlapping of lapped cars.

[Dudley]

No, we all said it was absurd before the season and it is now.

[panzani]

The drivers themselves complained regarding the lapped cars keeping position under a safety car period so FIA changed the rule 'at the driver's request'.

[Paste]

You just need to come up with a cute name for it, like "Lucky Dog" and all will be well. Since this is F1, and all worldly and whatnot, might I suggest the 'Bon Chien' pass?

[le chat noir]

I think that may have been a cock up cos i thought only cars situated been lead lap cars could unlap themselves, while LH was lapped and at the back of the field.

All you need to stop people slowing and getting unfair pitstop access while others bunch behind teammates is a rule to run within 2 seconds (for example) of the car in front once you catch the pack. failing to do that results in 10 second stop go.

[Tigershark]

It's quite odd, and look at Hamilton today: he was driving almost as fast as normal once he passed the Safety Car. That raises the question that if Hamilton is allowed to drive at close to normal speeds, why is there even a Safety Car in the first place?

[le chat noir]

or if the drivers must all line up in order of lead lap, have the cars on the lead lap, lap the cars already lapped by the leader, putting all the lapped cars at the back and keeping them a lap down

[F1Fanatic.co.uk]

Originally posted by Tigershark
It's quite odd, and look at Hamilton today: he was driving almost as fast as normal once he passed the Safety Car. That raises the question that if Hamilton is allowed to drive at close to normal speeds, why is there even a Safety Car in the first place?

The lapped cars are only allowed to unlap themselves once instructed, which one assumes is once the danger has been removed.

But it does mean the safety car periods are being unnecessarily lengthened.

[Tigershark]

Originally posted by F1Fanatic.co.uk
But it does mean the safety car periods are being unnecessarily lengthened.

Exactly, and that is the main problem with this situation. I think a fairer solution, to avoid backmarkers messing up the race, would be to simply reshuffle to race order behind the Safety Car.

[andysaint]

Every driver should know the rules before the season and each race starts and it is the same for each driver. Having said that yes it's a stupid rule and should be got rid of. A driver is one lap behind because generally he deserves to be there. In the most extreme circumstance if 1 driver has blitzed the opposition and put a lap on everyone is it fair that everyone should allowed to be back on the same lap?

[_bigbadbob_]

The rule is reasonable in that it keeps lapped cars out of the way of leaders fighting amongst themselves on restarts. I like it.

However, I hope today isn't an indication of things to come. Hopefully drivers won't park at the side of the track in nasty conditions so they can get a lap back instead of risking a crash like everyone else had to.

[Jaybee]

How is it reasonable? The safety car comes out when the race needs to be controlled for SAFETY reasons. All drivers must drive at speed determined by the safety car, no passing etc. So now we have lapped cars which usually are slower than the pack/ driven by inexperienced drivers/ have already had problems, allowed to go at whatever speed they like, pass other cars, and completely ignore the restraints put upon all other drivers. What tells a driver that the car coming up fast behind him is just "unlapping" itself, particularly when the safety car was deployed because of extreme weather conditions like today's. It's a horrible accident just waitiing to happen and it's entirely down to the short-sightedness of the controlling body.

[_bigbadbob_]

Originally posted by Jaybee
How is it reasonable? The safety car comes out when the race needs to be controlled for SAFETY reasons. All drivers must drive at speed determined by the safety car, no passing etc. So now we have lapped cars which usually are slower than the pack/ driven by inexperienced drivers/ have already had problems, allowed to go at whatever speed they like, pass other cars, and completely ignore the restraints put upon all other drivers. What tells a driver that the car coming up fast behind him is just "unlapping" itself, particularly when the safety car was deployed because of extreme weather conditions like today's. It's a horrible accident just waitiing to happen and it's entirely down to the short-sightedness of the controlling body.

They are not allowed to drive "whatever speed they like."

The rule states (thanks to TheSultire for posting this elsewhere) :

40.12 When the clerk of the course considers it safe to do so, and the message "LAPPED CARS MAY NOW
OVERTAKE" is shown on the timing monitors, any lapped cars which were between the cars running on
the lead lap at the time the safety car was deployed (and also remain in that position) will be required to
pass the cars on the lead lap and the safety car. They must then proceed around the track at an
appropriate speed, without overtaking, and take up position at the back of the line of cars behind the safety
car.

The important bit is "appropriate speed." I agree that Lewis' speed today was not appropriate, but that's not the rule's fault. The rule is meant to keep leaders fighting with themselves instead of being gifted a lead because then have 6 cars behind them that are 3 seconds a lap slower.

Your dangerous argument doesn't hold up if you look at the rule's wording.

[TheSaltire]

40.12 When the clerk of the course considers it safe to do so, and the message "LAPPED CARS MAY NOW OVERTAKE" is shown on the timing monitors, any lapped cars which were between the cars running on the lead lap at the time the safety car was deployed (and also remain in that position) will be required to pass the cars on the lead lap and the safety car. They must then proceed around the track at an appropriate speed, without overtaking, and take up position at the back of the line of cars behind the safety car.

[MONTOYASPEED]

Do you EVER post something with no rant in it?

[Jaybee]

Originally posted by _bigbadbob_


They are not allowed to drive "whatever speed they like."

The rule states (thanks to TheSultire for posting this elsewhere) :



The important bit is "appropriate speed." I agree that Lewis' speed today was not appropriate, but that's not the rule's fault. The rule is meant to keep leaders fighting with themselves instead of being gifted a lead because then have 6 cars behind them that are 3 seconds a lap slower.

Your dangerous argument doesn't hold up if you look at the rule's wording.

"Appropriate" speed is not an accurate description of Lewis' driving today. Any rule that's so easily disregarded is not worth the paper it is written on.

[hermitkid]

Originally posted by panzani
The drivers themselves complained regarding the lapped cars keeping position under a safety car period so FIA changed the rule 'at the driver's request'.

The change was clearly made so that the drivers ahead wouldn't have to contend with lapped drivers. Hamilton was already at the end of the field, there was absolutely no point in letting him unlap.

[Dudley]

Originally posted by _bigbadbob_
The rule is reasonable in that it keeps lapped cars out of the way of leaders fighting amongst themselves on
restarts. I like it.

No it doesn't.

If there was room for a lapped car there they weren't fighting anyway.

What you're suggesting is that the car in 2nd who might be 70 seconds behind anyway should be given an extra advantage, which is completely unfair.

The important bit is "appropriate speed." I agree that Lewis' speed today was not appropriate, but that's not the rule's fault. The rule is meant to keep leaders fighting with themselves instead of being gifted a lead because then have 6 cars behind them that are 3 seconds a lap slower.

If they're far enough behind for 6 cars to be there, there's no way they'll be "gifted" a lead anything like the one they were just screwed out of.

Frankly we should probably go back the other way, make them stop after a safety car and wave them off at the gaps from when it came out. If you were 20 seconds behind before you should be 20 seconds behind after.

[le chat noir]

But it is possible for there to be one car between them but only a second in time just before the lead car does its lapping just before the SC comes out.

Also, having seen a true procession for a number of laps, one does want the excitement of the restart, and it was annoying when a lapped car wasn't paying attention and holds up a guy who was a second away to being 4 seconds away when crossing the line.

So I can live with removing the lapped cars, but having them do an extra lap is ridiculous, they should just drop back to the back of the pack. But then that might be really tough on them if they were a second behind the guy ahead of them but the leader didn't get to lap them. So this is why they all get to do the extra lap.

However, they should be placed between lead lap cars to be able to do that. and LH wasn't today.

And i still don't like the extra time element and would prefer them to return to previous rules, open pits, with a rule to remain in a bunch within 3 seconds of each other - excepting for extra crashes and whatnot behind the SC.

[Dudley]

Originally posted by le chat noir
But it is possible for there to be one car between them but only a second in time just before the lead car does its lapping just before the SC comes out.

No because in these days of Girly GPs the backmarker gets blue flagged when he's still half a mile up the road.

Also, having seen a true procession for a number of laps, one does want the excitement of the restart, and it was annoying when a lapped car wasn't paying attention and holds up a guy who was a second away to being 4 seconds away when crossing the line.

Even if that happens, which it doesn't, the number of times the 2nd driver comes out an overall loser is going to be massively, massively less than the number of times it gives an extra advantage to someone who doesn't deserve it.

[Group B]

Originally posted by Alfisti
Am I the only one that thinks this is absurd? Firstly the front runners are penalised because the cars behind are suddenly right behind them and nopw there are not even any lapped cars to provide a small buffer as reward.

I see no valid reason for this rule, it stinks on all fronts. If they MUST get the lapped cars out of the way then let them through but they should remain a lap down IMHO.

Utterly, utterly shite idea. Couldn't believe what I was seeing today :

[le chat noir]

Absolutely, Dudley.

I don't really mind the second man getting an advantage in being close to the lead car. It adds to the excitement for about two corners after which the leader reexerts his lead. Usually.

However the extra time element rankles far greater than the second driver being held up four seconds in that rare case.

So revert to 06 I say.

[kNt]

Imo Hamilton should have been alowed to start the race earlier, accroding to FIA Sporting Regulations:

42.3 When the three minute signal is shown all cars must have their wheels fitted, after this signal wheels may
only be removed in the pit lane or on the grid during a further race suspension. Any car which does not
have all its wheels fully fitted at the three minute signal must start the race from the back of the grid or the
pit lane. Under these circumstances a marshal holding a yellow flag will prevent the car (or cars) from
leaving the grid until all cars able to do so have crossed the red flag line.
At some point after the three minute signal, which will be dependent upon the expected lap time, any cars
between the red flag line and the leader, in addition to any lapped cars between cars on the lead lap, will
be waved off to complete a further lap, without overtaking, and join the line of cars behind the safety car.

he shouldn't have been pushed of the grid and should have started about two minutes before the restart to be on the back of the grid on the restart.

[Rexx Havoc]

after Suzuka didn't they pass a rule that you can't rejoin the race if the marshals get you restarted?... never mind haul you out of a gravel trap with a crane

[le chat noir]

Originally posted by kNt
Imo Hamilton should have been alowed to start the race earlier, accroding to FIA Sporting Regulations:


he shouldn't have been pushed of the grid and should have started about two minutes before the restart to be on the back of the grid on the restart.

that would have been far superior.

[Group B]

Originally posted by Rexx Havoc
... never mind haul you out of a gravel trap with a crane

Imagine if they'd done that for MS, and THEN let him drive past the whole field and unlap himself; several people on this board wouldn't know whether to **** or get off the pot.

Another spectacle that does the sport no favours I'm afraid. :

[Rob G]

Originally posted by Rexx Havoc
after Suzuka didn't they pass a rule that you can't rejoin the race if the marshals get you restarted?... never mind haul you out of a gravel trap with a crane

Historically, you are not allowed to restart if you get a push-start from a marshal, but if they move you to a safe place and your car happened to "start itself" (for example, rolling down a hill) then you were free to rejoin. In Lewis' case, I don't think he ever stalled the engine, so once he was moved to safety he was able to rejoin. I'm just not sure why the marshals decided to put him back on the track instead of behind a barrier like everybody else.

And regarding the original post, I agree that it's a ridiculous rule. It rewards mediocrity, which is the antithesis of what F1 should be.

[Group B]

Originally posted by Rob G

I'm just not sure why the marshals decided to put him back on the track instead of behind a barrier like everybody else.

Which begs a question; just exactly where do you draw the line? Has this set a precedent for mobile cranes to carry cars across 200 yards of gravel and pop them back on the track? At the top of a hill perhaps?

[imaginesix]

Originally posted by Rob G
I'm just not sure why the marshals decided to put him back on the track instead of behind a barrier like everybody else.

As far as I can tell, they did that because everybody else stalled or shut off their engines so continuing the race was not an option for them.

[Youichi]

Originally posted by Jaybee


"Appropriate" speed is not an accurate description of Lewis' driving today. Any rule that's so easily disregarded is not worth the paper it is written on.

How was Lewis speed not "Appropriate" ? There were no cars/marshalls in gravel traps to slow down for, no debris on track to avoid ? Did he go too fast and fall off ? no ? so whats the problem ?

I agree with KNT he should have been allowed past Winklehock, before the safety car rolled off the grid. He was infront of Massa/Alonso in the queue. He was in effect robbed of 60 seconds, by the fact the he was let passed the queue/safety car after a lap and a half.

[Dmitriy_Guller]

Originally posted by _bigbadbob_
The rule is reasonable in that it keeps lapped cars out of the way of leaders fighting amongst themselves on restarts. I like it.

No, the rule is not reasonable. First of all, if there is a lapped car between the leaders, then it happened because the first lead car was ahead of the second lead car enough to have a lapped car between them. Taking out the lapped cars from the order and giving them a lap back is idiotic and makes a mockery of the safety reasoning behind safety cars, penalizing the leader even more than he already was.

The only problem with the previous arrangement was that the lead car could speed away on the restart, while the second car would be stuck behind the lapped car until the s/f line, because he would not be allowed to pass. That could've been easily fixed by, duh, allowing passing as soon as the race restarts, instead of having them wait for the s/f line.

Sometimes you really have to wonder if there is anyone who is making up the rules who is not a complete imbecile. If a bunch of casual fans could see the problem with the new rules immediately, then surely people who are paid to make up rules should've seen that as well.

[black magic]

certainly hamilton got a ridiculous advatage today.

to first be dragged out of the kitty litter then allowed to unlap hiumself, then pitlane even opened so he could have even changed his tyres... ok so he didnt pit but he could have, refueled then rejkoined at teh back of the pack, fresh fuel, tyres and only few secs behind the leaders.

way too much advantage for those at the back

what next? make the leaders slow down so those at the back can catch up again.

[ClubmanGT]

The guy spun off and was lapped. He should start at the back. When he went into the pits they should have held him until the safety car went past.

Whether he should have been fished out or not is another story - I think it was incredibly stupid to sit in a car at the end of a high-speed straight with that weather going on, and cars sliding off at 100+ kmh - there is a reason everyone else got over the barrier as quick as possible. Imagine someone else had come off and collected his car?

[Dmitriy_Guller]

Originally posted by ClubmanGT
The guy spun off and was lapped. He should start at the back. When he went into the pits they should have held him until the safety car went past.

Whether he should have been fished out or not is another story - I think it was incredibly stupid to sit in a car at the end of a high-speed straight with that weather going on, and cars sliding off at 100+ kmh - there is a reason everyone else got over the barrier as quick as possible. Imagine someone else had come off and collected his car?

If cars keep flying in at 100+ kmh into the area where I am, then I'll be damn sure to keep myself strapped inside a solid piece of carbon fiber, rather than completely expose myself for the 20 seconds or so it would take me to go from my car to the other side of the barriers. Just look at Button and how vulnerable he was as Hamilton and Sutil were flying towards him while he was getting out of the car.

[ClubmanGT]

Hamilton was right by the fence. It wasn't like he had to sprint across the gravel trap.

[SphereTL1000S]

Originally posted by Group B

Which begs a question; just exactly where do you draw the line? Has this set a precedent for mobile cranes to carry cars across 200 yards of gravel and pop them back on the track? At the top of a hill perhaps?

Excellent questio!!!

[john_smith]

Originally posted by Dudley


No because in these days of Girly GPs the backmarker gets blue flagged when he's still half a mile up the road.



Even if that happens, which it doesn't, the number of times the 2nd driver comes out an overall loser is going to be massively, massively less than the number of times it gives an extra advantage to someone who doesn't deserve it.

this change in safety car procedures was introduced following what happened in the canadian gp last year, where this exact scenario happened. so yes, it does happen and it was seen as unnecessarily influencing the leaders' battle for the win.

the concept of a safety car will always punish the leader and reward the people at the back. it does give people undeserving advantages, but it's a compromise that we allow due to safety considerations.

[roadie]

I believe Hamilton was at the back of the queue anyway. Personally, I don't understand why he was given a free lap when he was not interfering with the race of the cars in front, never mind the fact that he was air lifted out of the gravel trap.

[John B]

Terrible rule in NASCAR, terrible in F1. And it came troublingly close to giving Hamilton a point which could have been crucial in the title race.

[DEVO]

I agree with removing lapped cars from interfering with people on the lead lap but to get their lap back is just plain stupid. LH was already out of the way, so no need for him to get his lap back.

[pio!pio!]

Originally posted by TheSaltire
40.12 When the clerk of the course considers it safe to do so, and the message "LAPPED CARS MAY NOW OVERTAKE" is shown on the timing monitors, any lapped cars which were between the cars running on the lead lap at the time the safety car was deployed (and also remain in that position) will be required to pass the cars on the lead lap and the safety car. They must then proceed around the track at an appropriate speed, without overtaking, and take up position at the back of the line of cars behind the safety car.

The thing is, Lewis was not in between the cars running on the lead lap..he was at the back of the field..so he shouldn't have been allowed to overtake...

[LB]

Hamilton wasn't at the back of the queue as trulli had pitted and was behind him.

[Dmitriy_Guller]

Originally posted by ClubmanGT
Hamilton was right by the fence. It wasn't like he had to sprint across the gravel trap.

So was Button. Count the number of cars that "parked" themselves near Button's car as he was unstrapping and climbing out of his car. Cars are designed to protect the driver while he's strapped in; they're not designed to protect the driver who's standing on his seat. Really, you have to be reaching to claim that staying in your car while the accident is in progress is not the safest option for the driver.

[Dmitriy_Guller]

Hamilton was actually between the first place car and the second place car when the red flag came out. He rejoined the track seconds after Winkelhock passed him by, and Winkelhock was way ahead of everybody else at that point. He was only in the back of the pack after for some reason Maclaren crew wheeled his car from the front of the grid to the back of the grid under the red flag.

[le chat noir]

Originally posted by Dmitriy_Guller
Hamilton was actually between the first place car and the second place car when the red flag came out. He rejoined the track seconds after Winkelhock passed him by, and Winkelhock was way ahead of everybody else at that point. He was only in the back of the pack after for some reason Maclaren crew wheeled his car from the front of the grid to the back of the grid under the red flag.

Precisely. And if that cock up hadn't been made (presumably under FIA guidance or tacit approval) then he'd have set off 90 seconds previous to the others and got the lap back straight away - as in KNT's post.

So I think the cheat in the SC lap back (in that he was not now positioned between lead cars so shouldn't have got it) was allowed due to the earlier cock up. In all it cost LH, as he'd have pitted from the back of the pack if that's what he'd have chosen, and not half a lap only ahead (as the pack was moving when he got the lap back and if it had been done properly they'd have been stationary for far longer). Then (I reckon) his slowness on dries would have left him about 8th after they all pitted and he'd got some fast laps in. Then we may have seen him move onto the podium following KR retirement and his speed in the wet and MW being hyper defensive with 2 cars behind him.

If the marshalls had put a running car on behind the barriers what's to stop him driving out the escape road when the race is red flagged and restarting anyway? I don't think anything.