3244 replies to this topic

[metz]

Today we find out the FIA verdict on McLaren.
No matter what it is, fan reaction will range from mild amusement to total disgust.
Few will agree completely. Fewer still will know all the facts.
Did the FIA get it right?

[former champ]

I have a feeling this might end up being the longest thread in history.

[AFCA]

At what time is the verdict expected ?

My feeling says McLaren get's something like a 2 million dollar fine and something like a 10 points reduction and that's it.

[Hacklerf]

Originally posted by AFCA
At what time is the verdict expected ?

My feeling says McLaren get's something like a 2 million dollar fine and something like a 10 points reduction and that's it.

I think that sounds about right, but if a little light in my opinion.

[Orin]

McLaren are still trailing Ferrari a little bit. If they're found to have benefited from the dossier I hope they're fined, but allowed to keep it for a little longer.

[former champ]

Originally posted by AFCA
My feeling says McLaren get's something like a 2 million dollar fine and something like a 10 points reduction and that's it.

If they are found guilty of such serious allegations and that's their punishment, geez the backlash is going to be beyond belief. IMO that would be letting them off the hook in every sense and making a mockery of the whole situation.

[K-One]

Originally posted by AFCA
At what time is the verdict expected ?

My feeling says McLaren get's something like a 2 million dollar fine and something like a 10 points reduction and that's it.

I think it's due to sometime in the afternoon.

That's my guess as well, no WDC points will be stripped. Probably also a probation period

[ensign14]

I'm guessing that it will be found that McLaren did not gain an advantage but will be found technically liable on a strict liability basis, and given a major fine, plus possibly WCC points deducted, but no other punishment. Mosley's said in the past that drivers should not be punished for team mistakes that gave the driver no advantage.

[Clatter]

Is the verdict actually expected today?

That would'nt give the panel much time to review things.

[selespeed]

Originally posted by former champ


If they are found guilty of such serious allegations and that's their punishment, geez the backlash is going to be beyond belief. IMO that would be letting them off the hook in every sense and making a mockery of the whole situation.

something like schumacher-jerez 97...

[metz]

Originally posted by Clatter
Is the verdict actually expected today?

That would'nt give the panel much time to review things.

They have had the submissions for over a week.

[former champ]

Originally posted by selespeed
something like schumacher-jerez 97...

yep, Schumacher was let off with absolutely no punishment IMO and it was an absolute joke. Dock his points after all is lost but let him keep his wins.....

FFS what kind of punishment was that? This coming from a Ferrari fan but, I have to add, I did enjoy seeing Gilles' son win the title in the fashion he did.

In terms of punishment though, Schumacher was lucky in every sense of the word and the FIA made to look pathetic.

[Orin]

Originally posted by former champ


yep, Schumacher was let off with absolutely no punishment IMO and it was an absolute joke. Dock his points after all is lost but let him keep his wins.....

You can't really dock the wins, it would have been a nightmare for statisticians, with two sets of "wins" figures. A 10 race ban would have been much more effective.

[former champ]

Originally posted by Orin
You can't really dock the wins, it would have been a nightmare for statisticians, with two sets of "wins" figures. A 10 race ban would have been much more effective.

Fair call about the wins.

The race ban should definetly have existed, the length of it I don't really know what it should have been. 10 races or thereabouts though is good, considering what he did. Not everyone will agree though I'm sure.

Same goes for Senna in 1990, as much as it pains me.

[as65p]

Originally posted by former champ


yep, Schumacher was let off with absolutely no punishment IMO and it was an absolute joke. Dock his points after all is lost but let him keep his wins.....

FFS what kind of punishment was that? This coming from a Ferrari fan but, I have to add, I did enjoy seeing Gilles' son win the title in the fashion he did.

In terms of punishment though, Schumacher was lucky in every sense of the word and the FIA made to look pathetic.

I pointed to this before, the more intriguing implication of Jerez 1997 is that only MS lost his points while Ferrari kept the (same) points for the WCC.

So the employer was let off, despite one of his leading employees deemed guilty...

[Hacklerf]

Im eager to find out what happens, i feel they will be fined only, but we shall see

[ExxonValdez]

The gossip here is a penalty of 20 points to McLaren in the Constructor Championship. No penalty for drivers.

[f1wild]

I did enjoy seeing Gilles' son win the title in the fashion he did.

As did I, and the icing on the cake was that Schumi managed to say it was his "one" regret in racing.

[vsubravet]

Originally posted by ExxonValdez
The gossip here is a penalty of 20 points to McLaren in the Constructor Championship. No penalty for drivers.

Where is "here"?

[Orin]

Originally posted by as65p

I pointed to this before, the more intriguing implication of Jerez 1997 is that only MS lost his points while Ferrari kept the (same) points for the WCC.

So the employer was let off, despite one of his leading employees deemed guilty...

And you've neatly brought us back on topic. Ferrari did indeed escape punishment despite one of their employees (arguably the main one!) being caught blatantly cheating...


Edit: F1wild, yes I'm sure he regretted being caught that one time. Did he subsequently add a second regret, post Monaco 2006?

[ExxonValdez]

Originally posted by vsubravet


Where is "here"?

Spain

[f1wild]

The gossip here is a penalty of 20 points to McLaren in the Constructor Championship. No penalty for drivers.

McLaren must be found guilty first. And the verdict isn't in yet. Maybe they'll surprise us with something new and innovative??

[vsubravet]

Originally posted by ExxonValdez


Spain

O.K.

[AFCA]

Originally posted by ExxonValdez
The gossip here is a penalty of 20 points to McLaren in the Constructor Championship. No penalty for drivers.

That's what Gazzetta wrote as well, a points penalty for McLaren but not for the drivers...(which in a way in understandable but at the same is weird as the team points are the drivers points...).

Anyway, McLaren is likely to lodge an appeal against the verdict, especially if they think the verdict is too severe so then again we will have to wait ages before the real verdict comes out...

[f1wild]

Sorry, I don't seem to be attributing the quote to the one being quoted. My apologies.

[kar]

I can't see a penalty levied on the constructor but not the drivers is at all fair. While the drivers - clearly - haven't done anything wrong, they have obtained the points benefit of the (alleged) misbehaviour. It is ludicrous in that context to penalise merely the constructor and not the drivers of the team.

[Amanda]

A Ferrari employee steals information and gives it to a McLaren employee. Should both teams be responsible for their employees?

[as65p]

Originally posted by Amanda
A Ferrari employee steals information and gives it to a McLaren employee. Should both teams be responsible for their employees?

Refer to the 6000+ post in the various Stepneygate threads for an answer.

Well, not an answer actually, but lot's of words relating to this question...

;)

[Henri Greuter]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by selespeed
something like schumacher-jerez 97...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by former champ


Fair call about the wins.

The race ban should definetly have existed, the length of it I don't really know what it should have been. 10 races or thereabouts though is good, considering what he did. Not everyone will agree though I'm sure.

Same goes for Senna in 1990, as much as it pains me.

One of the problems was that by that time Williams was still rated dominant over the rest of the teams including Ferrari and the idea being that only MS flattering the Ferrari's real potential.
And Williams had been about the only team already testing an F1 car in the new 1998 trim (narrow track rules) so appeared to have an advantage again for the next season. And by banning MS for part of the season it appeared that by banning MS FIA may well have handed the season '98 to Williams on a plate.
Little did we know that McLaren pulled out something special that season while Williams kind of collapsed much severe than many expected.

By not banning MS for the 1998 season, or at least part of it, there was a reasonable chance that he still could make the 1998 season interesting and prevent an (expected) Williams walk-over.
Well, he prevented the McLaren walk-over so with hindsight, the decision was a good one if it came to rescueing next season. If it was fair justice is another matter.

'But at least there was something of a punishment in 1997, while there was absolutely nothing at all in 1990 at a moment that there should have been one.
And had there been a decent penalty applied on that occasion, maybe a lot of later incidents on the track never had happened to begin with....
And if they had happened after all, then they could have punished far more severely as well as had been appropriate.





Henri

[as65p]

Originally posted by AFCA


That's what Gazzetta wrote as well, a points penalty for McLaren but not for the drivers...(which in a way in understandable but at the same is weird as the team points are the drivers points...).

See above, such "weirdness" has happened before (i.e. 1997).

[Lifew12]

An arbitray fine for Coughlan having posession of documents, and a probationary period.

[Henri Greuter]

Originally posted by as65p


See above, such "weirdness" has happened before (i.e. 1997).

You forgot 1995: Brazilian GP.

Benetton and Williams using the wrong fuel, drivers allowed to retain their points but the constructors losing theirs.


Henri

[former champ]

Originally posted by kar
I can't see a penalty levied on the constructor but not the drivers is at all fair. While the drivers - clearly - haven't done anything wrong, they have obtained the points benefit of the (alleged) misbehaviour. It is ludicrous in that context to penalise merely the constructor and not the drivers of the team.

agreed.

[as65p]

Originally posted by Henri Greuter

...
'But at least there was something of a punishment in 1997, while there was absolutely nothing at all in 1990 at a moment that there should have been one.
And had there been a decent penalty applied on that occasion, maybe a lot of later incidents on the track never had happened to begin with....
And if they had happened after all, then they could have punished far more severely as well as had been appropriate.
...

Henri

I'm happy to see your "Suzuka '90" search engine still works!



As for the rest: a rather cynical, but probably accurate view.

I wonder if you think Mclaren should be let off on the same basis, to prevent handing Ferrari the season (maybe the next too) on a plate?

Nahh...

[former champ]

Originally posted by as65p


I pointed to this before, the more intriguing implication of Jerez 1997 is that only MS lost his points while Ferrari kept the (same) points for the WCC.

So the employer was let off, despite one of his leading employees deemed guilty...

Should have been both driver and team. In this current case involving McLaren, that's how it should work. If McLaren have benefitted from doing what is completely wrong on all levels, then so have the drivers.

[LuckyStrike1]

It seems most people here assume they will be found guilty and it is just a matter of what punishment they should receive?

[Tigershark]

I strongly doubt the FIA is going to punish McLaren, if found guilty, with anything more than a reprimand, an official warning or perhaps a fine (but what does that really mean to these people...). They cannot afford to have one of the biggest teams in the sport, and a major player in the current season be either banned or disqualified from races already run. Formula One is simply too big a business for that now, the stakes are too high, the investments too costly.

[Against_The_Grain]

Originally posted by LuckyStrike1
It seems most people here assume they will be found guilty and it is just a matter of what punishment they should receive?

If they are found guilty they should be punished. If they are found not guilty they should not punished.

It would be a travesty - if they are guilty - if they went unpunished, and would represent a seriously tarnished and hollow EDC or WCC should they win either or both of them. Titles should not be won by cheating.

If they are not guilty, they will not be punished, and any title would be valid and untarnished.

People generally assume Ferrari (and in the past, Schumacher's) guilt, so it is a refreshing change in this forum that some people should start to question whether McLaren's integrity is quite what they would like us all to think.

I still do have a slight problem with a single employee screwing-up damaging the whole company. If this is the case - as F1 staff move from team to team - then, say, McLaren could get a member of staff to "leave", get employed by Ferrari, get them to do something bad at Ferrari (or even give them some McLaren documents), get the employee "exposed" as being a "Ferrari cheating employee" and have Ferrari punished accordingly, so I do think it would set a rather dangerous precedent, much as I am not a big McLaren fan.

[ClubmanGT]

Originally posted by Tigershark
I strongly doubt the FIA is going to punish McLaren, if found guilty, with anything more than a reprimand, an official warning or perhaps a fine (but what does that really mean to these people...). They cannot afford to have one of the biggest teams in the sport, and a major player in the current season be either banned or disqualified from races already run. Formula One is simply too big a business for that now, the stakes are too high, the investments too costly.

So misappropriating IP is OK then?

[Ilaya]

Originally posted by LuckyStrike1
It seems most people here assume they will be found guilty and it is just a matter of what punishment they should receive?

And that is the problem imo because when found guilty the WDC/WCC title would become worthless to both McLaren and Ferrari irrespective of the punishment.

If they dock loads of points or kick McLaren out and Ferrari wins the title(s) then it is worthless to them.

If McLaren is punished lightly, probation and/or fine, then a McLaren title would be worthless because of the alledged cheating/spying etc.

I guess I am with Bernie on this one and hope it all just goes away [naive mode off]

[wj_gibson]

The cheating/not cheating dichotomy, where they constitute the sole outcomes, is a flawed and simplistic logic in a case such as this. In reality, it may be much more complex, and will hinge (I would think) on the degree to which there was witting knowledge within the team about the precise nature of Coughlan's possession - something that is notoriously difficult to prove (and disprove). That can't easily be reduced to a cheating/not cheating binary IMO unless there is very clear evidence of a conspirtatorial intent on the part of the McLaren hierarchy.

[as65p]

Originally posted by wj_gibson
The cheating/not cheating dichotomy, where they constitute the sole outcomes, is a flawed and simplistic logic in a case such as this. In reality, it may be much more complex, and will hinge (I would think) on the degree to which there was witting knowledge within the team about the precise nature of Coughlan's possession - something that is notoriously difficult to prove (and disprove). That can't easily be reduced to a cheating/not cheating binary IMO unless there is very clear evidence of a conspirtatorial intent on the part of the McLaren hierarchy.

Absolutely on the spot.

Only trouble is, the general public doesn't like complexity. It has to be or , like in the colosseum.
In between it just get's too irritating...

;)

[Henri Greuter]

Originally posted by as65p


I'm happy to see your "Suzuka '90" search engine still works!



As for the rest: a rather cynical, but probably accurate view.

I wonder if you think Mclaren should be let off on the same basis, to prevent handing Ferrari the season (maybe the next too) on a plate?

Nahh...

about search engines: I can say about the same of yours on messages of me.....

As for the rest, thanks for you approval. I knew how your feelings are in that matter and it's good we share the basic opinion..

As for what I think on the verdict. Many out here predicted a Ferrari redwash this season based on last year's lsecond half and the arrival of an overestimated driver. I guess that for many, whatever prevents another Ferrari redwash is OK.
I also think that had it been the other way around; (Ferrari ending up with McLaren papers) the outcry about the cheating team would have been much morve vocal and negative on the culprits then that it is now....

Normallly I should rely on justice being done. But as we all know: whit FIA being the judge and Ferrari being involved, it's likely to become another act of rough justice ....


Henri

[f1wild]

Originally posted by LuckyStrike1
It seems most people here assume they will be found guilty and it is just a matter of what punishment they should receive?

Not all of us. I still believe in innocence until proven (beyond a shadow of a doubt) guilty. Trial by media is a waste of time.

[ensign14]

Originally posted by LuckyStrike1
It seems most people here assume they will be found guilty and it is just a matter of what punishment they should receive?

They can be found guilty without being found legally liable. The mere possession by Coughlan may be a breach of sporting regs - remember Coughlan is not a Championship participant. There may be a very strict liability imposed in the sporting regs.

[Clatter]

Originally posted by Henri Greuter



about search engines: I can say about the same of yours on messages of me.....

As for the rest, thanks for you approval. I knew how your feelings are in that matter and it's good we share the basic opinion..

As for what I think on the verdict. Many out here predicted a Ferrari redwash this season based on last year's lsecond half and the arrival of an overestimated driver. I guess that for many, whatever prevents another Ferrari redwash is OK.
I also think that had it been the other way around; (Ferrari ending up with McLaren papers) the outcry about the cheating team would have been much morve vocal and negative on the culprits then that it is now....

Normallly I should rely on justice being done. But as we all know: whit FIA being the judge and Ferrari being involved, it's likely to become another act of rough justice ....


Henri

If it were the other way round then you are probably right about the response, but at this moment in time it isnt about Mac recieving Ferrari papers, its about 1 person, albeit a Mac employee, recieving the papers. I'm assuming that at least part of the investigation is to find out if the documents were actually seen/used by anyone else in the organisation.

[AFCA]

The verdict is expected this evening, or at the latest tomorrow morning.

[Tigershark]

Originally posted by ClubmanGT
So misappropriating IP is OK then?

The FIA has to be careful that it's reaction does not cause the sport more harm than the cause for the investigation did. It is, after all, not the FIA's job to act as some sort of international justice body, it should be concerned with the interest of the championships it organizes.

[denthierry]

Originally posted by former champ


If they are found guilty of such serious allegations and that's their punishment, geez the backlash is going to be beyond belief. IMO that would be letting them off the hook in every sense and making a mockery of the whole situation.

fully agree !

[denthierry]

Originally posted by ensign14
I'm guessing that it will be found that McLaren did not gain an advantage but will be found technically liable on a strict liability basis, and given a major fine, plus possibly WCC points deducted, but no other punishment. Mosley's said in the past that drivers should not be punished for team mistakes that gave the driver no advantage.

"that gave the driver no advantage" ???
That remains to be seen i think !