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Espionage: the FIA hearing and verdict discussion


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#3201 prty

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Posted 31 August 2007 - 11:34

Originally posted by Stuko


Wrong, Todt was against FA before that... Year 2001, FA drove a Minardi, Todt tried to sign FA (tester) but FA didn´t break his previous agreement with Minardi and finally he signed for Minardi. Todt doesn´t forget that "affront".


Yep.

http://forums.autosp...008#post2816008
http://forums.autosp...024#post2816024
http://www.elmundo.e...1050079677.html


Two things matter to Todt, Michael


Corrected (*cough* 1999)

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#3202 WHITE

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Posted 31 August 2007 - 15:10

Originally posted by Melbourne Park


My presumption is that Ferrari want to show that the weight balance on the MP4/22 is exactly the same as the F2007, then that could not be coincidental. Renault could assist with that lack of coincidence?

Strange to see Renault and Ferrari as allies - Flavio bitterly attacked them over the TMD, as he did McLaren.



"Exactly the same weight balance" doesn't have to be neither coincidental nor derived from the dossier.
Couldn't it not be the result of McLaren's own conclusions ?

Besides, Pedro de la Rosa, who usually comments the races for the spanish television, said that their cars do not wear the tyres the way Ferrari's cars do. May this have to do with weight distribution ?

It has being always suggested that the way McLaren has adapted to the new tyres is a possible evidence that they used some information contained in the dossier, but they were given it in april and, by then, the car had already raced quite well.
What if the information regarding how to better fit the tyres had been given to them long before by Bridgestone ?

#3203 Wouter

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Posted 31 August 2007 - 18:29

Originally posted by Melbourne Park


My presumption is that Ferrari want to show that the weight balance on the MP4/22 is exactly the same as the F2007, then that could not be coincidental. Renault could assist with that lack of coincidence?

Strange to see Renault and Ferrari as allies - Flavio bitterly attacked them over the TMD, as he did McLaren.

And how does Ferrari (or Renault) know McLarens weight distribution? The copy shop again?

#3204 HSJ

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Posted 31 August 2007 - 18:34

Originally posted by WHITE



"Exactly the same weight balance" doesn't have to be neither coincidental nor derived from the dossier.
Couldn't it not be the result of McLaren's own conclusions ?


In theory, yes. In practice, no. Just consider the odds of finding the same exact weight distribution for two random cars. But I must say I wouldn't expect to find identical weight distribution between the McLaren and the Ferrari cars even IF McLaren have directly used Ferrari data in that design aspect. That's what makes proving any use of Ferrari data/IP/whatever so difficult. The strange thing is that they actually need to prove usage. I've understood that in any ordinary court mere illegitimate possession of such information would be enough to bring heavy penalties.

#3205 Peter Perfect

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Posted 31 August 2007 - 19:48

Originally posted by WHITE



"Exactly the same weight balance" doesn't have to be neither coincidental nor derived from the dossier.
Couldn't it not be the result of McLaren's own conclusions ?

Besides, Pedro de la Rosa, who usually comments the races for the spanish television, said that their cars do not wear the tyres the way Ferrari's cars do. May this have to do with weight distribution ?

It has being always suggested that the way McLaren has adapted to the new tyres is a possible evidence that they used some information contained in the dossier, but they were given it in april and, by then, the car had already raced quite well.
What if the information regarding how to better fit the tyres had been given to them long before by Bridgestone ?


I thought the basic weight distribution of the car was pretty much a basic property of the chassis?

On the other hand, if somehow McLaren could change the weight distribution of the car so radically, it makes it more likely that they discovered it themselves through testing (as they could play around with the weight distribution to a far greater extent)

#3206 Peter Perfect

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Posted 31 August 2007 - 19:50

And just while I think about it, why doesn't the McLaren have problems heating the tyres the way that the Ferrari does? Isn't that linked to weight distribution?

#3207 AFCA

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Posted 31 August 2007 - 20:07

Originally posted by Peter Perfect
And just while I think about it, why doesn't the McLaren have problems heating the tyres the way that the Ferrari does? Isn't that linked to weight distribution?


It is yes, but it's also down to Ferrari's longer wheelbase and their suspension geometry.

#3208 F1Champion

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Posted 31 August 2007 - 20:16

Originally posted by Peter Perfect
And just while I think about it, why doesn't the McLaren have problems heating the tyres the way that the Ferrari does? Isn't that linked to weight distribution?


I'm not an engineer but that could be down to basic setup, springs, dampers, mechanical setup of the suspension, wheelbase length, the amount of downforce generated etc.

Whilst McLaren heat their tyres up better, they also eat them up as well. To me that indicates that they're in the ballpark of Ferrari in terms of close weight distribution, but haven't perfected it like Ferrari. This doesn't really constitute as evidence, it might be what Renault are rumoured to argue at the hearing...that is if they're going to argue anything at all.

#3209 as65p

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Posted 31 August 2007 - 21:06

Originally posted by F1Champion


I'm not an engineer but that could be down to basic setup, springs, dampers, mechanical setup of the suspension, wheelbase length, the amount of downforce generated etc.

Whilst McLaren heat their tyres up better, they also eat them up as well. To me that indicates that they're in the ballpark of Ferrari in terms of close weight distribution, but haven't perfected it like Ferrari. This doesn't really constitute as evidence, it might be what Renault are rumoured to argue at the hearing...that is if they're going to argue anything at all.


Ferraris inabilty to get heat into the tyres is a major flaw of their design, as they're the first to admit.

So you can hardly call their solution "perfected" it's rather that theirs and McLarens have specific strengths and weaknesses.

If anything, those diametrical opposed characteristics of the cars do point strongly against a simple "copy the weight distribution" job by McLaren.

#3210 as65p

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Posted 31 August 2007 - 21:10

Originally posted by AFCA


It is yes, but it's also down to Ferrari's longer wheelbase and their suspension geometry.


That's another pointer; I don't think you can simply apply the percentages of weight distribution between cars with different-length wheelbases just like that.

#3211 Buttoneer

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Posted 05 September 2007 - 14:45

Not looking any better for Stepney. but I'm still surprised that we have not heard anything about what this white powder might be. How long can it possibly take to analyse and identify this stuff?

#3212 Sarkon

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Posted 05 September 2007 - 15:08

Originally posted by Buttoneer
Not looking any better for Stepney. but I'm still surprised that we have not heard anything about what this white powder might be.


detergent

http://www.motorspor...y_07090502.html

#3213 metz

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Posted 05 September 2007 - 15:42

Appeal is withdrawn.
New evidence will be presented next week to the WMSC.
Not looking good for Mac. :(
http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/62066

#3214 Lazarus II

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Posted 05 September 2007 - 16:35

Originally posted by metz
Appeal is withdrawn.
New evidence will be presented next week to the WMSC.
Not looking good for Mac. :(
http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/62066

"New evidence" = Ferrari have said they must get their way or they will quit F1 :down:

#3215 F1Champion

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Posted 05 September 2007 - 16:39

Originally posted by Lazarus II

"New evidence" = Ferrari have said they must get their way or they will quit F1 :down:


:down: :rolleyes:

Or maybe there is new evidence after all.

#3216 Oho

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Posted 05 September 2007 - 17:09

Originally posted by HSJ


In theory, yes. In practice, no. Just consider the odds of finding the same exact weight distribution for two random cars.



Indeed, then again whats random about F1 cars?

However since the FIA bought the Jerez 97 qualifying result, having two cars designed against by far and large identical boundary conditions arriving at similar solutions in the greater scheme is reasonable unless of course you knew what the f*** you are talking about which, I can pretty safely say, is not the case.

I find all this quite odd, something like double jeopardy, oh well its not a court a law and it bloody well shows.

Now here as trick, FIA punishes McLaren, McLaren closes shop, buys Prodrive of Richards and surfaces next season as Vodafone Prodrive Mercedes. Well at least we might then have a rookie team taking Ferrari to cleaners while absolutely humiliating Mosley.

#3217 BuonoBruttoCattivo

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Posted 05 September 2007 - 17:15

Originally posted by Lazarus II

"New evidence" = Ferrari have said they must get their way or they will quit F1 :down:


:cry: u gonna be ok??

#3218 512 TR

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Posted 05 September 2007 - 17:17

If you listen very closely you can hear the truth tip-toeing across the white and sterile halls of Paragon. But you have to listen very closely. ;)

#3219 EvilPhil II

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Posted 05 September 2007 - 17:48

New evidence to proove that ferrari planted the material ?

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#3220 Lazarus II

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Posted 05 September 2007 - 17:49

Originally posted by BuonoBruttoCattivo


:cry: u gonna be ok??

Uh yeah sure, it's just F1.

F1 is all about ENTERTAINMENT, it's not my life....unlike some here :rotfl:

#3221 WHITE

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Posted 05 September 2007 - 21:11

Originally posted by Lazarus II


F1 is all about ENTERTAINMENT, it's not my life....unlike some here :rotfl:



:up:

#3222 kar

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Posted 05 September 2007 - 22:55

Originally posted by Lazarus II

Uh yeah sure, it's just F1.

F1 is all about ENTERTAINMENT, it's not my life....unlike some here :rotfl:


I find those that need to take such pains to point that out, usually, are lying :-)

#3223 JSDSKI

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Posted 05 September 2007 - 23:27

Originally posted by AFCA

It is yes, but it's also down to Ferrari's longer wheelbase and their suspension geometry.


The wheelbase of a car has a direct relationship to weight distribution (longitudinally). As you lengthen a wheelbase you effectively move weight rearward and vice versa. This will affect the loading of the tires.

Ballast is used to change the weight distribution that is built-in from the design layout by moving weight to a different location on the chassis - to the front, to the rear, or to the sides - ie both front wings or under the drivers knees between barge boards. Ballast position is used to fine tune track setups.

Suspension geometry controls the attitude of the car in motion and the tire patch. It can't change weight distribution (a front to rear or side to side ratio controlled by physically fixed components like engines and pedals, etc) but it can control the rate at which the car's weight (and motion at speed) loads the tires along all three axis. This is usually setup to maintain an optimum temperature in the tire carcass and tire patch along with wings.

Edited with correctionnoted by Melbourne Park !

#3224 Lazarus II

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Posted 06 September 2007 - 00:10

Originally posted by kar


I find those that need to take such pains to point that out, usually, are lying :-)

You're entitled to your opinion. Although you have never met me and have no idea if I even really watch F1 :cat:

#3225 kar

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Posted 06 September 2007 - 00:22

Originally posted by Lazarus II

You're entitled to your opinion. Although you have never met me and have no idea if I even really watch F1 :cat:


Then you're particularly strange since you have spent so much time posting on a hardcore f1 fan forum... :)

#3226 Lazarus II

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Posted 06 September 2007 - 00:38

Originally posted by kar


I find those that need to take such pains to point that out, usually, are lying :-)

What do you think of someone that judges others without any knowledge of the individual they are judging?

What if that judgmental individual looks back at you in the mirror?
:wave:

#3227 Melbourne Park

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Posted 06 September 2007 - 00:39

Originally posted by JSDSKI
The wheelbase of a car has a direct relationship to weight distribution (longitudinally). As you lengthen a wheelbase you effectively move weight forward and vice versa.

You need to re think that.

#3228 black magic

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Posted 06 September 2007 - 04:19

or how about this scenario oho.

vodafone mclaren sues for bankruptcy as sonce they are banned for 2008 also their sponsors leave en mass as mclaren will have defaulted on their sponsorship agreements.

hamilton terminates his contract with mclaren on similar basis as does fred. fred goes back to renault. hamilton snapped up by toyota and pay out ralfs contract.

ron resigns from his own co in disgrace and paragon put on the market where sold at huge loss as useless to anyone but f1 team.

how bout that scenario. at least teh first part not beyond belief.

want to bet vodafone, mercedes satnd by ron if he's kicked out for a yr?

#3229 Melbourne Park

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Posted 06 September 2007 - 04:54

Originally posted by black magic
or how about this scenario oho.

vodafone mclaren sues for bankruptcy as sonce they are banned for 2008 also their sponsors leave en mass as mclaren will have defaulted on their sponsorship agreements.

hamilton terminates his contract with mclaren on similar basis as does fred. fred goes back to renault. hamilton snapped up by toyota and pay out ralfs contract.

ron resigns from his own co in disgrace and paragon put on the market where sold at huge loss as useless to anyone but f1 team.

how bout that scenario. at least teh first part not beyond belief.

want to bet vodafone, mercedes satnd by ron if he's kicked out for a yr?


Just sell the company to Mercedes, then it would not be McLaren anymore. And pay Ron a salary and a points bonus.

#3230 WHITE

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Posted 06 September 2007 - 06:58

Originally posted by Melbourne Park


Just sell the company to Mercedes, then it would not be McLaren anymore. And pay Ron a salary and a points bonus.



What if all this mess had been promoted by Mercedes in order to get rid of Ron and definetely take over McLaren ?

#3231 Melbourne Park

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Posted 06 September 2007 - 07:17

Originally posted by WHITE
What if all this mess had been promoted by Mercedes in order to get rid of Ron and definetely take over McLaren ?

:lol:

If Mercedes wanted Ron out, he'd agree to it. They effectively control the business. IMO MB only have to withdraw their various relationships and Ron would be out of business. It looked like he may sell his holdings last year, but instead he sold half and as it turned out not to MB.

Its pretty silly to think that Stepney is planted there by Mercedes. But in the German car industry, such as the VW affair, there was much more serious spying wasn't there ... but if MB put all their faith in gaining full control in McLaren in "the powder man" Stepney's hands, I'd be quite surprised. ;)

#3232 angst

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Posted 06 September 2007 - 08:22

Originally posted by HSJ


In theory, yes. In practice, no. Just consider the odds of finding the same exact weight distribution for two random cars. But I must say I wouldn't expect to find identical weight distribution between the McLaren and the Ferrari cars even IF McLaren have directly used Ferrari data in that design aspect. That's what makes proving any use of Ferrari data/IP/whatever so difficult. The strange thing is that they actually need to prove usage. I've understood that in any ordinary court mere illegitimate possession of such information would be enough to bring heavy penalties.


I've understood that in any ordinary court mere illegitimate possession of such information would be enough to bring heavy penalties

And where, exactly , have you "understood" this from. I seem to recall having a discussion not too long ago about this exact same thing, and I think it was made pretty clear that in a court of law the only individual who would likely be found guilty of any wrong-doing would be NS.

#3233 Gecko

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Posted 06 September 2007 - 08:28

Originally posted by Melbourne Park
If Mercedes wanted Ron out, he'd agree to it. They effectively control the business.


I don't think it's that simple. I think Mercedes aren't taking lightly the fact that Ron and Ojjeh sold their shares to Bahrain instead of Mercedes at the beginning of this year. McLaren without Mercedes would still do perfectly alright, whereas Mercedes starting from scratch in F1, wouldn't.

#3234 Melbourne Park

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Posted 06 September 2007 - 08:56

Originally posted by Gecko


I don't think it's that simple. I think Mercedes aren't taking lightly the fact that Ron and Ojjeh sold their shares to Bahrain instead of Mercedes at the beginning of this year. McLaren without Mercedes would still do perfectly alright, whereas Mercedes starting from scratch in F1, wouldn't.


Certainly its not that simple.

I don't know about whether MB wanted those shares.

If McLaren walked away from MB, they be in huge trouble. Consider their manufacturing facility that has been tied to MB and is being paid for by contractual manufacturing for MB. MB are building their own McLaren F1 equivalent car soon, but McLaren will also be building a super car for MB ... if MB pulled the plug on all that, McLaren would be stuffed.

There's the engine issue too.

Who would buy MB's share if MB wanted out - they'd fall in value except if another auto company wanted them. That would hurt Ron & Co a lot. And Ron doesn't want to go on for too many more years.

Where would McLaren get an engine/drivetrain?

MB could always buy another team - everyone has their price. They started Sauber afterall - and now BMW have it. Buying Williams would be similar to what BMW did.

#3235 sensible

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Posted 06 September 2007 - 09:55

Originally posted by Melbourne Park


Just sell the company to Mercedes, then it would not be McLaren anymore. And pay Ron a salary and a points bonus.

Nice idea but wouldnt work. There are 11 (12 next year) F1 team slots as defined in some agreement somewhere (concorde?). If Mac was banned there would be 11 slots available for next year and so Merc couldnt just turn up without getting a new slot.

#3236 ralphrj

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Posted 06 September 2007 - 10:02

Originally posted by Melbourne Park
MB are building their own McLaren F1 equivalent car soon, but McLaren will also be building a super car for MB ... if MB pulled the plug on all that, McLaren would be stuffed.


Just a minor point but the next McLaren road car is not being produced for DaimlerChrysler.

DaimlerChrysler suspended development with McLaren for the next generation supercar (codename P8) several years ago and earlier this year announced that the replacement for the SLR will instead be built by HWA (who build Mercedes-Benz DTM cars).

McLaren will continue to develop and produce another road car when the SLR ceases production but it will not be badged Mercedes-Benz. However, it will use a Mercedes-Benz engine.

#3237 Melbourne Park

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Posted 06 September 2007 - 10:19

Originally posted by ralphrj


Just a minor point but the next McLaren road car is not being produced for DaimlerChrysler.

DaimlerChrysler suspended development with McLaren for the next generation supercar (codename P8) several years ago and earlier this year announced that the replacement for the SLR will instead be built by HWA (who build Mercedes-Benz DTM cars).

McLaren will continue to develop and produce another road car when the SLR ceases production but it will not be badged Mercedes-Benz. However, it will use a Mercedes-Benz engine.


Yep that fits with what I have followed - I thought the McLaren car will be a mid engined supercar.

I think though that if MB did not fund those programs, McLaren would be in big trouble. i don't know the financial though, but I think that Paragon and the manufacturing investment was MB capital.

#3238 HP

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Posted 06 September 2007 - 11:06

Originally posted by Peter Perfect
And just while I think about it, why doesn't the McLaren have problems heating the tyres the way that the Ferrari does? Isn't that linked to weight distribution?

Remember the early McLaren in 2005, not being able to generate enough heat, and thus qualifying a few places down? After they altered the suspension the problem was solved. So I don't think there's a simple one case fits its all explanation of what causes the difference.

#3239 JSDSKI

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Posted 06 September 2007 - 19:44

Originally posted by Melbourne Park

You need to re think that.


Ha - you're correct, lengthening the wheelbase moves center of mass rearward and shortening it will move it forward. Nice catch. I should have had a picture of a Top Fuel Dragster in front of me. :lol:

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#3240 jokuvaan

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Posted 06 September 2007 - 19:57

Finnish tabloid:
latest rumours say that Stepney started to leak information already last year
also Mclaren is very likely to loose all manufacturer points from this year or worse

#3241 Juan Kerr

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Posted 06 September 2007 - 20:05

I think Stepney should be held responsible and coughlan as there's is no proof either way that McLaren as an organisation knew anything about the goings on or Ferrari. Any new evidence must be bad news of course which may show that Coughlan told his organisation what he had found out. For Example de la Rosa and Alonso discussing what they'd found out from Coughlan about the Ferrari. The trouble is there's a very good chance Stepney has been setup. Stepney has obviously been tucked up though I wonder how the FIA will get him out of that ?

#3242 giacomo

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Posted 06 September 2007 - 20:24

It's impossible for McLaren "as an organisation" to know anything.

McLaren the organisation is consisting of their staff. McLaren knows what their staff knows.

#3243 Juan Kerr

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Posted 06 September 2007 - 20:25

Originally posted by giacomo
It's impossible for McLaren "as an organisation" to know anything.

McLaren the organisation is consisting of their staff. McLaren knows what their staff knows.

How does McLaren know what their staff knows ? Explain.

#3244 giacomo

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Posted 06 September 2007 - 20:28

Originally posted by Juan Kerr
How does McLaren know what their staff knows ? Explain.

McLaren = McLaren staff.

Should be clear as glass.

#3245 Melbourne Park

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Posted 06 September 2007 - 21:45

Originally posted by JSDSKI
Ha - you're correct, lengthening the wheelbase moves center of mass rearward and shortening it will move it forward. Nice catch. I should have had a picture of a Top Fuel Dragster in front of me. :lol:

Wrong again. The C of G can stay at the same point, or move forward or backward when you change the wheelbase. It depends where the chassis is lengthened. The polar moment does change though, unless when the wheelbase is lengthened, the mass is moved closer to the C of G.