34 replies to this topic

[TecnoRacing]

After listening to years of listening of corporate propaganda, the Red Bull driver search has finally reached its final chapter with the firing of Scott Speed...in the end it the PR campaign was was more important that truly nurturing and supporting young American racing drivers...

A half-hearted effort and a fruad...

For Speed to be gone and Tost/Berger still in bussiness as usual is an absolute disgrace...
Dietrich Mateschitz

What a rotten 'Red Bull' chapter in american racing...

[ezequiel]

I found more interesting the fact that, if Red Bull's intention was to promote drivers to F1 (American or not), they're somewhat failing with that aim. The RBR team has no driver from the RB program in a race seat this season (after having Klien and then Doornbos last year) and in STR now only remains Liuzzi... With all the rumours saying that Bourdais has a secure race seat in STR for next season there will be chance for only one driver from the Red Bull program to race in F1 for 2008...

[giacomo]

The fantastic Red Bull young driver talent search system succeeded in finding David Coulthard (36 years) and Mark Webber (31 years).

[Mauseri]

Originally posted by fer312t
After listening to years of listening of corporate propaganda, the Red Bull driver search has finally reached its final chapter with the firing of Scott Speed...in the end it the PR campaign was was more important that truly nurturing and supporting young American racing drivers...

They are excepted to bring new drivers to F1, not give them seats for years to come regardless of performance. The driver himself has to be good to impress bosses to stay in Red Bull or be bought to other teams.

Speed had his chance. It's time for next talents.

[DLaw]

Start writing to Red Bull.

Some one posted a link earlier.

[IOU 16]

No it is not. I think it was a good thing. It showed teams that karting is a place to get talent. I am not an IRL fan, but a Indy Pro team just signed a Lewis Hamilton/ Red Bull- type development contract to an 18 year old karter.

Look at the guys who came out of the Red Bull Driver Search. And remember many could not afford racing past karting and used the RBDS as a way to just get out of karts.

Most outside the US will probably not know the names.
Scott Speed
AJ Allmendinger -5 time CCWS winner
Joey Hand
Colin Flemming
Phil Geibler made his Indy 500 start this year
Bryan Sellers
Bobby East -(had the money, but not to get past Sprint Car Racing)
Paul Edwards- Grand Am Factory Driver for GM
Johnathon Edwards
Ryan Hunter-Reay- 2 time CCWS winner
Patrick Long-Porsche Factory Driver
Rocky Moran Jnr.
Boston Reid
Bobby Wilson
Matt Jaskol

I ran in the 2005 version, which was the last. And I agree it was flawed. Bobby East had signed a contract with Hendrick Racing in Nascar just before taking part. He should not have been alowed to race. Phil had already raced in Europe. Same with Paul Edwards. Johnathon Edwards was only 14 when he won. I crashed(the only guy to do so) in the kart round, but finished second in the Skip Barber round. And still did not progress past anything.

[ezequiel]

Originally posted by micra_k10

They are excepted to bring new drivers to F1, not give them seats for years to come regardless of performance. The driver himself has to be good to impress bosses to stay in Red Bull or be bought to other teams.

Speed had his chance. It's time for next talents.

So, is it possibly that they were making "wrong" choices? Maybe they were choosing drivers with marketing intentions, I mean, paying more attention to the nationalities of those drivers rather than their actual achievements in the junior series??

[EvilPhil II]

Exactl, lets face it all drivers performed poorly and with the exception of sato all would have gone long ago.

[Ilaya]

Originally posted by fer312t
After listening to years of listening of corporate propaganda, the Red Bull driver search has finally reached its final chapter with the firing of Scott Speed...in the end it the PR campaign was was more important that truly nurturing and supporting young American racing drivers...

A half-hearted effort and a fruad...

Of course it was merely a PR campaign (stopped in 2005) were you really so gullible that you believed Red Bull or Mateschitz did care for nurturing and supporting young American racing drivers one bit?

At least it gave Speed a chance to get to F1 and now for many reasons (most of which Speed can't help at all) it has ended for him, tough luck but that's F1 too.

Originally posted by fer312t
For Speed to be gone and Tost/Berger still in bussiness as usual is an absolute disgrace...
Dietrich Mateschitz

Berger is part owner of the team, why should he leave F1, it's his perogative to remove drivers from his team.
As to Tost; I can't see why a tussle with Speed, whose side of the story is the only one we know of, should lead to him being removed from TR and obviously neither can his boss.

And finally Mateschitz, the guy owes American racing or racers nothing.
Drivers use Red Bull, Red Bull uses the drivers, that's how it is in racing, even Speed knows judging from his very obvious attempts to appease Red Bull after the "Tost-incident".

[TecnoRacing]

I ran in the 2005 version, which was the last. And I agree it was flawed. Bobby East had signed a contract with Hendrick Racing in Nascar just before taking part. He should not have been alowed to race. Phil had already raced in Europe. Same with Paul Edwards. Johnathon Edwards was only 14 when he won. I crashed(the only guy to do so) in the kart round, but finished second in the Skip Barber round. And still did not progress past anything.

Interesting.

If you care to share you identity, please do. Are you still racing by the way?

[IOU 16]

I do race. I have stated it here many times. The Skip Barber National Championship in the US.
Jordan is not much of a guy to watch out for anytime soon. If I go anywhere next year, it would be FBMW. In the US or in Europe is unsure. I have contacted teams from both series though. But a miserable 2007 season that has me in 8th in the standings, does not turn too many heads.

[TecnoRacing]

And finally Mateschitz, the guy owes American racing or racers nothing.

Well, perhaps not, but perhaps yes...

If you're going to launch a campaign to get an American driver into F1...and you literally shove that campaign down every American F1 fan's throat for several seasons... then you should very well expect to get some @#$%^&*2 from American F1 fans when the 'product' of that campaign is muscled out the door by under very tacky circumstances...

[Cplu]

Originally posted by fer312t
After listening to years of listening of corporate propaganda, the Red Bull driver search has finally reached its final chapter with the firing of Scott Speed...in the end it the PR campaign was was more important that truly nurturing and supporting young American racing drivers...

You think F1 is the be all and end all?

How many series do Red Bull pump much needed cash into?

How many drivers do they support with wages EVERY week?

Yep DM should just take off and take all his money with him for sure

Originally posted by giacomo
The fantastic Red Bull young driver talent search system succeeded in finding David Coulthard (36 years) and Mark Webber (31 years).

thats bit rough - he's not 31 untill the end of the month

[sanjiro]

If the RB young driver program was so bad the SS would not have made is so clear he does not want any of this to impact on his position with RB.

Too much is being made of the situation within TR,
they are not the whole of the program,
only one part.

As to RBR not using drivers frm the program.
They stated that there intention was to develop a car for 2008.
It would be much harder to do that without an experienced driver like DC.
They have provided the same car with a different engine to TR.
The fact that TR have failed to do anything with it is,
so far, more of an indictment of the drivers than the team.
Who have driven as though on the bumper cars at a fair.

[WildmouseX]

That's ok, i only drink no fear to support boris said anyway.

[Ceejay]

They have provided the same car with a different engine to TR.

The STR-02 is not the same car as the RB3, and never was. The STR-02 was always going to be a compromised design from the start because of the Ferrari engine.

The RB3 updates which eventually found their way on to the STR-02 were always historic and didn’t have the advantage of the AN touch. In the same way as the early RB3 was fragile, so is the STR-02.

I don’t rate FT at all, I believe him to be a lightweight. I do rate GB, but he has too much to do. Mateschitz was always going to tire of F1 and it appears he has had enough. Mateschitz did talk of pairing an experienced driver with a younger driver for 2008, but this has not happened. I believe that Mateschitz is now preparing to pull out of F1.

[Agnis]

I've heard that Mateschitz and Red Bull have to sponsor American drivers because that was the provision to sell theyr energy drinks in USA. Otherwise they could be banned like in France.

[FlashMaster]

Originally posted by Agnis
I've heard that Mateschitz and Red Bull have to sponsor American drivers because that was the provision to sell theyr energy drinks in USA. Otherwise they could be banned like in France.

Haha really? Didn't know that Red Bull is banned in France, but I saw couple of other energy drinks there

[Jackman]

Originally posted by Agnis
I've heard that Mateschitz and Red Bull have to sponsor American drivers because that was the provision to sell theyr energy drinks in USA. Otherwise they could be banned like in France.

Leaving aside the fact that any such deal would be illegal, why do you think that any government would even attempt to put such provisos on a distribution deal ethically?

[sanjiro]

Originally posted by Ceejay

The STR-02 is not the same car as the RB3, and never was. The STR-02 was always going to be a compromised design from the start because of the Ferrari engine.

The RB3 updates which eventually found their way on to the STR-02 were always historic and didn’t have the advantage of the AN touch. In the same way as the early RB3 was fragile, so is the STR-02.

I don’t rate FT at all, I believe him to be a lightweight. I do rate GB, but he has too much to do. Mateschitz was always going to tire of F1 and it appears he has had enough. Mateschitz did talk of pairing an experienced driver with a younger driver for 2008, but this has not happened. I believe that Mateschitz is now preparing to pull out of F1.

Not that I have any real evidence to dispute you on this one, however...

The RB3 was originally planned with the Ferrari engine and although this was dropped rather early It remained a strong possibility as the power plant for the RB3.
So some work even if only a little would have been done around the Ferrari engine.

Secondly the Similarities are enough for Williams to get their knickers in a bunch.
With enough evidence to have the FIA negotiating a deal with the two teams in this situation.
None of which makes any difference if the STR management cant get their act together.



I actually think RBR was expecting CK to do much better against DC than he did.
The lack of performance by CK and the availability of MW would have made the move away from RB drivers an easy choice.
In the end RB have to make a car that can win races and when one of there more highly rated drivers shows he is not up to the standard of DC it would be dificult for them to look seriously at their lesser lights.

Given this they move to change and have 2 known quantities in RBR and 2 of their drivers in STR.
Unfortunately both the STR drivers have made more mistakes than teams hope for in an F1 driver.
F1 teams are a business and like any business must aim for success.
You cant hobble your business just to support a principle or soon you will be out of business.

[glorius&victorius]

Torro Rosso ejected Speed from their car, yes.

But has Red Bull also now fired him?

I thought Speed is still a Red Bull driver (without a seat at this moment). Or I missed something

[glorius&victorius]

As for Torro Rosso, wouldn't it be a great idea to have Doornbos and Bourdais at the team next year?

[sanjiro]

Originally posted by glorius&victorius
Torro Rosso ejected Speed from their car, yes.

But has Red Bull also now fired him?

I thought Speed is still a Red Bull driver (without a seat at this moment). Or I missed something

You are not missing something.
STR booted him
RB have not.

Speed said himself that he was very keen to kep his relationship with RB strong.

as for Doornbos and Bourdais for their sake I hope they dont get an STR drive.
Even Minardy was a better option than STR are now.
Minardy may have had no cash a bad car and little hope of a good result, but they were reliable and management was focused on giving new drivers a chance.

Until STR management sort themselves out they will flounder

[Topweasel]

Originally posted by Agnis
I've heard that Mateschitz and Red Bull have to sponsor American drivers because that was the provision to sell theyr energy drinks in USA. Otherwise they could be banned like in France.

Are you kidding. That defeats everything we have set up in the good old US of A. It takes a hell of a lot to get something banned in the US and while the Government does talk eye to some companies, those are American companies where their fall might damage our society (airlines after 9/11, or the Big three automakers) other then that they take no care. The Fedarel government only would ban it A.) If the were supporting a country we are currently at war with (basically the Taliban) B.) It was considered a Drug that should require a Prescription C.) It has a bussiness presence in the US that hasn't paid its taxes.

Now on a local level (city or state) in theory it could be banned and in theory for no reason, but would require a public vote and Red bull would have to lobby in every one of those areas to keep its drink off of the ballet.

Absolutely no chance it was ever, and I mean ever had a chance to get banned in the US. The only reason its banned in France is because France being a sem-socialist country makes and sell an energy drink, and knowing that it couldn't compete with Red Bull (the most popular worldwide) it banned it. Something that would never happen in the US as at most our government only has its hands in a handful of markets (like Farming where they pay farmers not to farm) but almost everything is produced and designed on an open market. Our best fighters and our best weapons even are designed not buy our government, but by corporations.

[Ilaya]

Originally posted by sanjiro
as for Doornbos and Bourdais for their sake I hope they dont get an STR drive.
Even Minardy was a better option than STR are now.
Minardy may have had no cash a bad car and little hope of a good result, but the were reliable and management was focused on giving new drivers a chance.

Until STR management sort themselves out they will flounder

You can't spell Minardi but you do know it was a better option than STR
Just because STR kicked out a mediocre driver like Speed doesn't mean it's all bad.
For 2008 things are looking actually pretty good for STR, they'll have open access to Red Bull Technology and -depending on the engine- there's no reason they will have a significantly worse car than the Red Bull team.

Originally posted by Topweasel
The only reason its banned in France is because France being a sem-socialist country makes and sell an energy drink, and knowing that it couldn't compete with Red Bull (the most popular worldwide) it banned it.

Guess you graduated from the Fox school of economics you big nono.
I didn't want to grace the Agnis misconception (about Red Bull sales/sponsoring in the USA) with an answer because I thought it was too daft, but you really tip the scale.
You actually believe that EU countries like France and Denmark ban the product of a fellow EU country (with the consent of the EU commission) because of semi-socialist competition reasons??
I hope you are 11 years old or have a genetic reason for being stupid but please......

[Topweasel]

Originally posted by Ilaya

You can't spell Minardi but you do know it was a better option than STR
Just because STR kicked out a mediocre driver like Speed doesn't mean it's all bad.
For 2008 things are looking actually pretty good for STR, they'll have open access to Red Bull Technology and -depending on the engine- there's no reason they will have a significantly worse car than the Red Bull team.


Guess you graduated from the Fox school of economics you big nono.
I didn't want to grace the Agnis misconception (about Red Bull sales/sponsoring in the USA) with an answer because I thought it was too daft, but you really tip the scale.
You actually believe that EU countries like France and Denmark ban the product of a fellow EU country (with the consent of the EU commission) because of semi-socialist competition reasons??
I hope you are 11 years old or have a genetic reason for being stupid but please......

Don't know about Denmark but I am sure along with Red Bull, France has refused the sale of Kellogg cereals because people were dying everywhere by eating it. They have a history of banning items that they can't beat in either desire or price.

[Ilaya]

Originally posted by Topweasel

Don't know about Denmark but I am sure along with Red Bull, France has refused the sale of Kellogg cereals because people were dying everywhere by eating it. They have a history of banning items that they can't beat in either desire or price.

Go to school learn about European competition laws and stop watching Fox, I'll take you seriously then

[Topweasel]

Originally posted by Ilaya

Go to school learn about European competition laws and stop watching Fox, I'll take you seriously then

I don't watch Fox. Though I would be interested in understanding more about how France couldn't have done what I among others am currently accusing them of, I am not to interested in spending thousands, putting my job at risk, just to win or have a greater understanding of forum debate. If you would please enlighten me on what I am supposed to learn from those competition laws, it would please me to no end. Otherwise I am stuck with the understanding that France has banned Red Bull based on caffeine amounts (approx 1 cup of coffee), and Kellogg based on sugar amounts of some of their brands, without any proof of adverse affects, while having a subsidized alternatives (with nearly the same amount of those dangerous ingredients), while those companies are both the biggest and most widespread worldwide products available.

[scheivlak]

http://www.kelloggs.fr/

[sanjiro]

Originally posted by Ilaya

You can't spell Minardi but you do know it was a better option than STR
Just because STR kicked out a mediocre driver like Speed doesn't mean it's all bad.
For 2008 things are looking actually pretty good for STR, they'll have open access to Red Bull Technology and -depending on the engine- there's no reason they will have a significantly worse car than the Red Bull team.

Hmm so I spell like a 2yo I am an artist so I dont care.
But at least I actually understand what I write about.

If you had bothered to read my post rather than nit picking like some 80yo obsessive who rings up newspapers to point out their grammatical mistakes,
you would have seen I was not talking about the performance of the STR car relative to the Minardi.

For the conceptually challenged it was a comment on the team environment and degree of support offered at Minardi vs STR.

[CWeil]

People seem to forget that, relative to Red Bull, STR have very, very little money.

STR do not have the same car, nor the development funding or capability (due to funding), and considerably less manufacturing capability.

It will never compete with Red Bull on the larger scale, and the fact that it has so much this year has more to do with drivers than overall competitiveness.

[Ceejay]

Not that I have any real evidence to dispute you on this one, however...

However you will anyway.

I do not believe that any part of AN’s RB3 original design, following the decision to use Renault engines in 2006, took account of the Ferrari engine that STR was forced to use from 2007 onwards. In fact the major problem with the RB2 (2006) design was the cooling system for the Ferrari engine, but this was simply transferred to the STR-02 together with all the same problems.

STR do not have the money to solve these problems and Mateschitz is looking to sell his 50% in the F1 team. On top of these problems, STR is based in Italy and Mateschitz has signed them up to a minimum 2-year Ferrari deal.

You have to remember that it was Mateschitz who insisted that RBR switched the RB2 engine supplier from Cosworth to Ferrari in February 2005. This was a very bad decision, and now Mateschitz must accept all the blame. Imagine, if it was not for that fool Mateschitz, both RBR and STR could have continued with Cosworth engines since 2005.

You can't blame the drivers for STR's current position, this lack of performance from the team is 98% down to poor management.

[sanjiro]

Originally posted by Ceejay

The STR-02 is not the same car as the RB3, and never was.

I don't understand how this can be the case considering STR are one of the teams Willams are pursuing for the use of a customer chassis. With the main point of their argument being the similarities between the STR and RBR chassis.

I am not professing to know what the teams are doing and the finer details of the STR chassis.
Only going on the actions of Williams and the comments to the media by AN during the later months of 2006.

Originally posted by Ceejay

You can't blame the drivers for STR's current position, this lack of performance from the team is 98% down to poor management.

I agree with this totally.
At this point in time you could choose any driver on the grid, put them in the STR and you would not get much more than they have already.

The management however are looking to pass the blame where ever they can.
To the press they indicated that they were unhappy with the failure of the drivers to bring the cars home
Both driver have been involved in a disproportionate number of "racing incidents"
I have indicated in other posts in this thread that the team environment at STR is not a good one.

[Topweasel]

Originally posted by scheivlak
http://www.kelloggs.fr/

Well that goes against what I have read. Until I find more information about the Kellogg ban in France, I will refrain from mentioning them in any other continuation of this debate.

[canon1753]

Red Bull dropped the US talent search. Big deal.

They have put tons of money into sponsoring Red Bull Racing- their NASCAR team. I have to say, from a strictly US based perception, it could be money well spent, once they get their Toyotas competitive, simply because the NASCAR market is much bigger in the US than the F1 market is in the US.

I suspect their CCWS sponsorship and their former IRL sponsorship wasn't nearly the size of their NASCAR commitment.

The rest of the question besides the Scott Speed situation is still, in my mind, open. US interest in F1 should grow with a USGP. What will happen without a US GP will be interesting. Or it could be that US firms are trying to get the non-US market penetration by F1 sponsorship.

We'll see....

(Hopefully Bernie and Tony are still in touch, and get a deal done for 2009, or even 2008).