636 replies to this topic

[bankoq]

He's 21 not 20 as somebody stated.

I think there's a lot of truth written in Mark Hughes article about Vettel (and it perfectly matches what we've been told straight from Robert Kubica in the meeting). People also don't realize how good Toro-Rosso car is, namely how big advantage Ferrari's engine is giving to the team (and the team do decent job to integrate the rest with the engine).

Mark Webber will be Vettel's first real test and from I've seen in the past (Liuzzi was the only quite good driver paired with Vettel and Tonio was as fast or faster) I would put my money on Mark.

[Gecko]

Originally posted by bankoq
Mark Webber will be Vettel's first real test and from I've seen in the past (Liuzzi was the only quite good driver paired with Vettel and Tonio was as fast or faster) I would put my money on Mark.

Vettel, however, improved enormously during his time in F1. He is the first driver to pair Webber in the future and where I don't really believe Webber will have the upper hand. It is going to be a tight battle as both drivers are supremely fast, but I can see Mark get frustrated quickly.

[santori]

Vettel and Di Resta had two seasons in F3 and Vettel came out on top in the first on, didn't he? And 86-75 is hardly being 'comprehensively outperformed'. And the comparisons to Michael Schumacher's early career are maybe not quite fair, because at the same age Michael wasn't in F1, he was in F3 and sportscars and being regarded as almost as promising as Heinz-Harald Frentzen.

[anbeck]

Funny though that Vettel at the same time is just an average driver and only seems good, because the Toro Rosso "is better than we think", while him beating Bourdais the whole year is just the latter not being comfortable with the car.
If Alonso was beating Bourdais, it would be because of his 6 tenths, I bet. :

[bankoq]

Vettel is beating Bourdais because he is better driver. As simple as that. We consider car factor in reference to other teams and not to inner Toro-Rosso situation.

Read with comprehension.

[potmotr]

I think Hughes analysis is spot on as usual. Vettel is driving the fourth best car on the grid at the moment. As Mark suggests, he is keeping up with it, but not transcending it.

[LuckyStrike1]

Originally posted by anbeck
Funny though that Vettel at the same time is just an average driver and only seems good, because the Toro Rosso "is better than we think", while him beating Bourdais the whole year is just the latter not being comfortable with the car.
If Alonso was beating Bourdais, it would be because of his 6 tenths, I bet. :

Well that is not really a fair description of what he is saying. He is not saying he is just an average driver, he analysizes, if it can be called an analysis, if he is a future mega star or "just" a pretty good F1-driver. A pretty good F1-driver is a damn good racingdriver, even an average F1-driver is pretty good. But mega star is something completely else and very few can reach that level. I thin it's fair to have doubts over Vettels credentials as a future mega star, at the moment Kubica seems more likely than Vettel to fill that. (BTW, Heidfeld is a pretty good f1-driver).

So the question is - is Vettel a future Alonso or a future Heidfeld. At the moment maybe it seems he is more a future Heidfeld?


Regarding beating Bourdais I think it's safe to remember that Bourdais has spent many years driving a very different kind of single-seater in US and is a rookie in F1. Vettel at the moment with his much wider F1-experience in comparison should beat Bourdais the whole year if he has any aspirations of being thought of as a future mega star or a future pretty good F1-driver.

So just calm down, and see that as actually a pretty complimentary writing about Vettel as an F1-driver.

[taran]

Originally posted by bankoq
Vettel is beating Bourdais because he is better driver. As simple as that. We consider car factor in reference to other teams and not to inner Toro-Rosso situation.

Read with comprehension.

Utter bollocks. If that is the depth of your comprehension of F1, you'd better look for something less challenging.


Vettel has a ton of current F1 experience. Bourdais is used to a very different kind of car.
Then there is the current car. With the old car, Bourdais was performing better with no experience. Yet according to your simplistic reasoning, that would make him a better driver right?

The new car doesn't suit Bourdais. He has said, the team has said it. Both are working on getting Bourdais more comfortable with the car's handling. Ideally, a driver should be able to adapt to any car. Reality has shown that it doesn't work that way for most drivers. History has many examples of drivers having trouble adapting to a car's handling characteristics. Rosberg, Laffite, Patrese, Mansell, Coulthard, Montoya to name just a few.

[bankoq]

Sorry, I meant to say Vettel is beating Sebastien because he is good driver. I don't know if better than Bourdais because as you said the Frenchman isn't very experienced and it seems the car doesn't suit him at all. Bourdais should get another chance in 2009 that's for sure. I believe he will perform much better on slicks and new regulations.

Vettel is for sure a driver deserving a seat in F1 but how good he is we can't judge until we can compare him with somebody who is proven to be fast driver in F1 (and in Webber I believe we have that guy). So far Mark Hughe's analysis characterizes SV's situation quite accurately imho.

[myF1dream]

Looks like Buemi might be joining Vettel for the RB seat next season, Buemi is a good driver proving himself in A1, F3 euroseries and GP2. Along with his stint for being F1 test driver.

What do people think ?

************************************
myf1dream.com - the future of F1

[noikeee]

Originally posted by myF1dream
Looks like Buemi might be joining Vettel for the RB seat next season, Buemi is a good driver proving himself in A1, F3 euroseries and GP2. Along with his stint for being F1 test driver.

What do people think ?

Buemi is a decent prospect, the success he's had in the lower series at his age (he's younger than Vettel) is fairly impressive IMO even if he's not hyped a lot.

However I think they'd do better by giving him another GP2 year, he still needs to prove he's F1-class and not just show potential to be F1-class.

Unfortunately there's so few chances to get a F1 seat nowadays that Buemi (or anyone else outside of F1) can't afford to let it go. The Toro Rosso seat (not Red Bull like you're saying, Webber is confirmed alongside Vettel) might not be there for Buemi in 2010.

[Ivanoff]

On wednesday Vettel was riding at Schumi's cartodrome in Kerpen in rainy conditions
http://www.ksm-motor...etail.asp?ID=62

[Sakae]

Originally posted by LuckyStrike1


Well that is not really a fair description of what he is saying. He is not saying he is just an average driver, he analysizes, if it can be called an analysis, if he is a future mega star or "just" a pretty good F1-driver. A pretty good F1-driver is a damn good racingdriver, even an average F1-driver is pretty good. But mega star is something completely else and very few can reach that level. I thin it's fair to have doubts over Vettels credentials as a future mega star, at the moment Kubica seems more likely than Vettel to fill that. (BTW, Heidfeld is a pretty good f1-driver).

So the question is - is Vettel a future Alonso or a future Heidfeld. At the moment maybe it seems he is more a future Heidfeld?


Regarding beating Bourdais I think it's safe to remember that Bourdais has spent many years driving a very different kind of single-seater in US and is a rookie in F1. Vettel at the moment with his much wider F1-experience in comparison should beat Bourdais the whole year if he has any aspirations of being thought of as a future mega star or a future pretty good F1-driver.

So just calm down, and see that as actually a pretty complimentary writing about Vettel as an F1-driver.

I think Kubica is 1/2 Mansell or worse, whereas Vettel has potential to give Hamilton headache in every race, given access to equipment 3 top teams have. To compare him to NH is simply problem either of personal bias getting in a way, or not knowing much about him. Having said that, I am afraid that Red Bull might kill his career, unless he gets out from there quickly, which unfortunately seems unlikely.

[AFCA]

Tost on Bourdais' performance: ''The reason that Sébastien is in an upswing is that several things are coming together. He feels the pressure related to his seat next year. He knew Spa-Francorchamps because he's already been testing for us here. And the track lay-out suits his driving style.''

Bourdais: ''In Spa most corners are very similar. In corners like these the car behaves in a neutral way. In slow corners the Toro Rosso tends to oversteer, while it tends to understeer in the very fast ones. I can't drive like that. In all corners I need a well balanced car.''

Tost confirms the Frenchman struggles in slow corners, especially under braking: ''Then the rearend gets twitchy and he has to wait with steering in, up to the point the car has stabilised. Vettel uses the nervous rearend to steer in.''

The telemetrie shows that Bourdais especially looses time to his teammate under braking in the Busstop-chicane. ''Vettel has no problems with a critical car, I do.''

When STR was still driving its own, more balanced car this season, the difference between the drivers used to be not more than two tenths. But Vettel clearly has had the better of Bourdais since the Faenza-based team has been driving the STR3 (Monaco). ''It was particularly bad when we got a new aerodynamic package at Magny-Cours. The window in which to set-up the car is very small.''

But the four times Champ Car champion isn't blaming his team: ''The new car is quick. The windtunnel results show that very clearly. My problem is that I can only show that I'm fast with it on very few tracks. That frustrates me.''

Bourdais on his future: ''Berger and Tost must decide about that. In Formula 1 only the results count. And so far I haven't performed in the way I had expected.'' According to the F1 rookie everything depends on how much patience the team has. ''In my first Champ Car year (2003) I also had problems at Newman-Haas. The team had confidence in me. After that I won the title four times consecutively.''

[pingu666]

what happened to bourdais in the last few laps?
great qualy and race by him, really pleased for him

[anbeck]

I think he didn't want to crash out (which would have greatly reduced his chances to stay at TR next year), played it safely, and those who played risky were faster and got past him.

[dank]

Originally posted by pingu666
what happened to bourdais in the last few laps?
great qualy and race by him, really pleased for him

Completely agree. Thought he had a steady race and he played it safe during the last lap. Wonder how he'll do at Monza though?

[potmotr]

Bourdais was just on ITV. He was in tears talking about how crazy the last few laps were. Said he was on for a great result then everything went crazy. All choked up, eyes red from all the crying.

You have to feel for the guy.

[Leyser]

Originally posted by potmotr
Bourdais was just on ITV. He was in tears talking about how crazy the last few laps were. Said he was on for a great result then everything went crazy. All choked up, eyes red from all the crying.

You have to feel for the guy.

I feel he has the potential. If he can be consistently close to Vettel, he deserves to stay in F1.

[potmotr]

I agree. It must have been so frustrating for him. He was on for a great finish. Those are tears on the inside of his glasses by the way...

[potmotr]

By the way, do my eyes decieve me or did Vettel give away fourth place to Alonso because he was punching his hands out of the cockpit after the last turn. That strikes me as quite a Mansell-esque blunder...

[schuey100]

I think Bourdais needs to stop acting like a baby. Jesus the guy is a soppy twit. And even after one of the better weekends he still can't hold it together in the last few laps. I have no idea what he's doing in F1. Honestly, I think it's time for someone else to take his seat and put him out of his misery. Anyway, he bores me senseless, watching him drive makes me want to go to sleep.

[noikeee]

That picture is a bit gay, lol.

Sucks for Bourdais, he deserved a better result this weekend.

The Ferrari engines are really handy on these high top-speed tracks, heh? STR was on par with BMW here... I'd expect them to be quick enough for points in Monza again.

[pingu666]

i suspect hes more catious than others from his le mans exploits, and did he do long oval races in america? sort of events where its really important to stay ontrack

[Risil]

Originally posted by pingu666
i suspect hes more catious than others from his le mans exploits, and did he do long oval races in america? sort of events where its really important to stay ontrack

Heh, he won a F3000 championship by staying off drugs, he knows all about playing it safe.

[pingu666]

sucked for the other guy, performance dibilitating drug too :/

[dank]

Originally posted by schuey100
I think Bourdais needs to stop acting like a baby. Jesus the guy is a soppy twit. And even after one of the better weekends he still can't hold it together in the last few laps. I have no idea what he's doing in F1. Honestly, I think it's time for someone else to take his seat and put him out of his misery. Anyway, he bores me senseless, watching him drive makes me want to go to sleep.

Might get your wish sooner than you think! Rumours in GPWeek say that he has up until Monza to meet some specific targets, otherwise he's out of STR. They then go on to say that his seat will be used for the remainder of the season between either Sato or Buemi depending on the Jerez test. And it also goes on to say that Senna could be given the seat for the Brazilian GP!

Seems pretty far-fetched? I know he's not setting the world on fire with his performances, but with STR on the up surely they would want some stability for the remainder of the season with only five races remaining?

[potmotr]

Originally posted by dank

Seems pretty far-fetched? I know he's not setting the world on fire with his performances, but with STR on the up surely they would want some stability for the remainder of the season with only five races remaining?

I think he's had a tough rookie season, but who hasn't? Piquet, Glock and Nakajima were all doing a below par job before they came up with the goods. I don't think Bourdais has been awesome, but I think he's been doing a solid job. He's stayed out of trouble on the first lap a lot more than Vettel for example.

I think it would be an absolute travesty if he's booted out of Toro Rosso for some pay driver.

[Zar]

Bourdais did a great job @ Spa; if he looses his seat after that performance I would have a hard time supporting Toro Rosso.

Go Seabass

[santori]

Originally posted by schuey100
I think Bourdais needs to stop acting like a baby. Jesus the guy is a soppy twit. And even after one of the better weekends he still can't hold it together in the last few laps. I have no idea what he's doing in F1. Honestly, I think it's time for someone else to take his seat and put him out of his misery. Anyway, he bores me senseless, watching him drive makes me want to go to sleep.

1. The conditions were such that one of the best and most experienced drivers in F1 crashed heavily. It is understandable that someone in Bourdais' situation had a little difficulty.

2. He was within a lap of achieving something he's been working for all his adult life, something which would have saved his F1 career, and it slipped away. God forbid he should feel something.

[potmotr]

Originally posted by santori
2. He was within a lap of achieving something he's been working for all his adult life, something which would have saved his F1 career, and it slipped away. God forbid he should feel something.

Agreed. The tears on ITV really showed how totally frustrated Bourdais was. I felt for the guy.

[johndej]

Watching some replays and reading bourdais reaction after the race, he did his best to get the 7th he ended up w/. i mean he did his best to block heidfeld who rolled straight past him on wet tires along with alonso, and then managed to not take out his teammate who passed him after that. only guy he could have raced a little harder was kubica who was also on wet tires. i think heidfeld's last lap was like 20 some secs faster than anyone on dry tires. he also managed not to stuff it like some other past champions.

[AndreasF1]

in 1985 When Berger was racing with Arrows he was consistently blown away by Boutsen!!! It wasn't until his time at BMW that he showed his promise by winning the Mexican GP of 86. What exactly does Berger expect from Bourdais? His rookie season, matched with a teammate that is going to be an absolute Superstar, he is doing a fine job. Better than Berger did in 1985 for sure and he was blown away by a driver that is nowhere near Vettels skillset. If Toro Rosso had their finances in order and a secure future they wouldn't feel the need to treat their drivers that way. Its all about money.

[potmotr]

Originally posted by AndreasF1
in 1985 When Berger was racing with Arrows he was consistently blown away by Boutsen!!! It wasn't until his time at BMW that he showed his promise by winning the Mexican GP of 86. What exactly does Berger expect from Bourdais?

Very good points. Bourdais is a strong driver, but needs to feel he is valued and not about to lose his seat at any second. Is it just me, or is the ugly stench of Helmet Marko floating around...?

[Risil]

Originally posted by AndreasF1
in 1985 When Berger was racing with Arrows he was consistently blown away by Boutsen!!! It wasn't until his time at BMW that he showed his promise by winning the Mexican GP of 86. What exactly does Berger expect from Bourdais? His rookie season, matched with a teammate that is going to be an absolute Superstar, he is doing a fine job. Better than Berger did in 1985 for sure and he was blown away by a driver that is nowhere near Vettels skillset. If Toro Rosso had their finances in order and a secure future they wouldn't feel the need to treat their drivers that way. Its all about money.

Arrows ran BMW engines in 1985! Boutsen was pretty good, too, although don't forget he scored over half his points total that year at the Imola race, where half the field contrived to run out of fuel at the end. A match for Vettel in the wet, though, anyway.

@Potmotr If Scott Speed's comments are anything to go by, it's Gerhard Berger himself who seems to be behind Toro Rosso's driver 'policy', no one else.

[potmotr]

Originally posted by Risil
@Potmotr If Scott Speed's comments are anything to go by, it's Gerhard Berger himself who seems to be behind Toro Rosso's driver 'policy', no one else.

Really, I was under the impression Marko had a finger in any driver decision concerning a Red Bull-backed team.

[Risil]

Originally posted by potmotr


Really, I was under the impression Marko had a finger in any driver decision concerning a Red Bull-backed team.

I think he's Red Bull's 'man', and a highly competent one at that. That said, logic would dictate that he'd be in favour of bringing in someone like Buemi, although that would presumably be unjustifiable, given his results in GP2 this year, and considering the rather early stage his career is at.

"Looking back at how it happened, I never really had a problem with Franz [Tost]; it was Gerhard who put a lot of pressure on Franz about us.

"Gerhard started making it very difficult for Tonio and me. He wanted changes and had his own agenda in place. Franz is a really hard worker, but even though it went so bad with him, I don't hold it against him at all."

Judging by the rather farcical way Speed and then Liuzzi were despatched by Toro Rosso, and the similarly cold-blooded treatment of Bourdais, it's not unlikely that Berger is the common thread in all three cases. I believe there were stories about his rather destructive tenure at Williams-BMW, also.

[AFCA]

Originally posted by undersquare
There's speculation that STR might switch to Honda engines, with Sato, and RB take back the Ferrari engine supply (which they signed for originally before Newey arrived and wanted Renault).

I would!

F1Live

Originally posted by AFCA


I think that's very unlikely. All the teams have already made considerable progress on next year's car. Deciding to change engine supplier I think is the equivalent of walking straight to the grave. And not just because of the engine: also in terms of gearbox and KERS design, something the teams are working on together very closely. It's just too late and all the work that has been done on the points I mentioned would turn out to be useless...

Berger denies Sato would be brining along Honda engines: ''Whether or not Sato will join us is solely dependent on his performance.''

''First of all we have a valid contract. And with 'we' I mean Toro Rosso (as opposed to Red Bull I guess - AFCA). Secondly we're very happy with Ferrari. And thirdly we're obviously willing to further improve next year. With a new engine we would have to start from scratch again in many areas. And that's not our aim.''

Would the team get Honda engines more easily/cheaply with Sato on board though ? ''Possibly, but that's not what it's about.''

-------

As for Bourdais not testing next week (Buemi day 1, Sato day 2, Vettel day 3), Berger: ''The fact Bourdais isn't going to test doesn't mean anything.'' Tost: ''Vettel will be in the car on the third day because we want to test some parts with him that so far haven't suited him very well and we want to hear his opinion about them.''

Meanwhile, after the German had already denied it himself, Marko came out saying that Vettel taking over Coulthard's seat from Monza onwards is bollocks: ''I don't know who's been spreading this around but it's nonsense.''

[AFCA]

Tost: ''We have to get past Honda and Williams in the constructors championship.'' Preferably STR is also willing to finish in front of RBR, but they better not say that too loud within the Red Bull family.

Anyway, between finishing 9th or 7th in this championship there is a difference of around $ 4 million. With that, half of the costs of the hybrid technology, that STR is going to buy from Ferrari, would be financed.

When Alonso popped up at the Energy Station at Spa Berger shouted: ''Toro Rosso would be the best choice for you in 2009 ! In that way you can already get used to the Ferrari engine.'' When the Spaniard responded saying he doesn't know when the doors at Maranello will open for him, Berger laughed: ''We will let you go any time you want.''

Eventhough this was obviously having a bit of fun, Berger stresses that with STR's good results, the team has become of interest to other drivers as well: ''We have shown to be a team that should be reckoned with.''

[potmotr]

Originally posted by Risil
Judging by the rather farcical way Speed and then Liuzzi were despatched by Toro Rosso, and the similarly cold-blooded treatment of Bourdais, it's not unlikely that Berger is the common thread in all three cases. I believe there were stories about his rather destructive tenure at Williams-BMW, also.

What is it with Austrians and team management? They seem a ruthless mob. Bourdais should have a second season. It's a tragedy if he doesn't.

[Risil]

Originally posted by potmotr


What is it with Austrians and team management? They seem a ruthless mob.

Ahaha. I'm going to defer to Godwin's Law and not mention the obvious here.;)

[pingu666]

i think burger used to pull out something special when under pressure, so he thinks others would do the same. this ofcourse isnt always the case

[AFCA]

Translated Q&A with Bourdais:

Q: At Spa you've driven your best Formula 1 race. Are you happy with that ?
Bourdais: ''Not when I look at my position in the final lap. The final lap was a lottery. It was so treacherous that the car was willing to break out with each movement of the steering wheel. After the dissapointing season so far I didn't want to risk loosing a spot in the points under any circumstances. So I've driven carefully. The last lap was so wild that I didn't even know which position I was in. After the great weekend P7 was frustrating.''

Q: Nevertheless, was the race your break through ?
Bourdais: ''That I do not think. Spa has helped me because there all the corners are in an zone in which the car is well balanced. If the corners are slow the car understeers, if they're fast the car oversteers. I need a car that is well balanced in every type of corner. I have problems when the aerobalance fluctuates that much. Throughout my career this has always been my working method: first I set-up the car the way I want it, then I go fast with it. But this car doesn't allow itself to be set up on all tracks in such a way I can go fast with it.''

Q: What kind of role do the, for you unusual, grooved tyres play ?
Bourdais: ''No role at all. With slicks I would have had the same problems. It's purely a matter of aerodynamics. I think that there's no car on the grid that has such a strong fluctation between slow and fast corners as our Toro Rosso. Coulthard has his problems with it also.''

Q: Wasn't it like that at the beginning of the season ?
Bourdais: ''At that stage we were still driving with last year's car. That one was more well-natured. I was always close to Vettel with it. Since we've switched to the STR3 I can no longer 'call up' my full potential. Actually only since Magny-Cours when we've got a new aerodynamic package. The problem with it is: in the windtunnel this package is better and Vettel actually underlines this on track.''

Q: Nevertheless you're in an upswing since Valencia...
Bourdais: ''In Valencia the car was better, not me. I was six tenths slower than Vettel. That's unacceptable.''

Q: How come he copes better with the car ?
Bourdais: ''The zone in which he feels comfortable in the car is about three times bigger than mine. That's his strong point and my weak one. At the moment I'm only worth 60% (of what I'm capable of).''

Q: Do you see a chance to still be driving for STR in 2009 ?
Bourdais: ''My bosses decide about that, not me. In Formula 1 the results count and not the 'ifs' and 'buts'. Perhaps next year my problems will be gone when the car will be less pointy due to the aerodynamic regulations. I cannot judge whether the team has so much patience with me. I can only tell a story. My first ChampCar season (2003) was tough. Newman-Haase decided to stick with me and I thanked them for that by winning four championships.''

[Bernd Rosemeyer]

Originally posted by potmotr
Bourdais should have a second season. It's a tragedy if he doesn't.

He isn't out for 2009 yet. It will depend on his performances.

[pingu666]

good Q&A

[wdh]

Originally posted by pingu666
good Q&A

But actually the English language version that appears at http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/70462 has a rather longer and more colourful answer to the Valencia question!

Seems very self-critical, aware of his limitations, but also confident that, given what he asks for, he could deliver.

[Brodequin]

Originally posted by wdh
But actually the English language version that appears at http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/70462 has a rather longer and more colourful answer to the Valencia question!

Seems very self-critical, aware of his limitations, but also confident that, given what he asks for, he could deliver.

Wow, that interview at Autosport is one of the best I've read. Really, really makes me want to see Seabass in F1 next year. Hopefully he gets a car that he can work with and that he and the team can improve together.

[shonguiz]

This guy surely knows what he's talking about, it's always a pleasure to read him.

[Bernd Rosemeyer]

Originally posted by shonguiz
This guy surely knows what he's talking about, it's always a pleasure to read him.

Yes, indeed. Maybe next year without Vettel in the team he can shine?

[Cobden]

I agree.

It was really good to read such an explanation of his problems.
It's a shame that there is so few drivers ready to get into details like that. I almost can't imagine Kimi, Nicko or Heiki (there is more of them) talking so openly about problems they have.
He also is classy to admit Vettel's skills in handling what they have get.

Looks like Vettel is again more comfy with the car...