179 replies to this topic

[JohnH]

Gone 20 years ago today. Surprised to see no threads today.

John

[f1steveuk]

I could never work the guy out, or if I liked him or not. He obviously had the ability, but his ethics always seemed suspect to me. I wondered if he was racing to day, taking the amount of functions controled by the drivers hands, how he'd have performed, after his accident.

Still a tragedy the way he died. RIP

[Hieronymus]

Didier was a fantastic, talented racing driver. The majority of F1 drivers in recent years can only wish to be in the same class as a driver, as the late Didier.

[Andre Acker]

Considering what is said / written about his ethics, he would do very well in F1 as it is nowadays ...
Did you all forget Schumacher's "works" ?

Anyway, a very fast driver, I've followed his career from the first time I saw him racing in Super Formula Renault (I think this is how it was called), in Monza 1975 (F1 preliminar race).

VBR.
André Acker.

[T54]

I could never work the guy out, or if I liked him or not. He obviously had the ability, but his ethics always seemed suspect to me.

How about the ethics of a Villeneuve-struck media that refused to even consider that Didier was actually a damned good driver with gentle and kind manner, and never gave him a break for having the nerve to want to win races on front of their idolized Gof of Speed, the very God of Speed that got bent out of shape when he found what could have been his on-track equal?

[f1steveuk]

On track, not the ethics I was questioning. Much like Mansell, I had a lot of time for him in a car, not out of it........

[T54]

but his ethics always seemed suspect to me.

Seems to me that your question was clear...
After his accident, Didier took a long time to recover but could probably never have used his legs and feet the way he used to. Secret testing for Larrousse was not conclusive and Didier looked somewhere else. Boat racing was less demanding on the lower body and suited Didier perfectly, and he excelled there too, albeit so briefly. Didier got killed because a careless member of the media in a "press" boat did not follow the racing organisation's instructions about creating dangerous wakes that could effect the racing. My other good childhood friend Jean-Claude Guenard also died in this accident as well as Bernard Giroux, a well-known automotive journalist.

[picblanc]

Originally posted by T54

Seems to me that your question was clear...
After his accident, Didier took a long time to recover but could probably never have used his legs and feet the way he used to. Secret testing for Larrousse was not conclusive and Didier looked somewhere else. Boat racing was less demanding on the lower body and suited Didier perfectly, and he excelled there too, albeit so briefly. Didier got killed because a careless member of the media in a "press" boat did not follow the racing organisation's instructions about creating dangerous wakes that could effect the racing. My other good childhood friend Jean-Claude Guenard also died in this accident as well as Bernard Giroux, a well-known automotive journalist.

rest in peace Didier,Bernard and Jean-Claude.

[Fiorentina 1]

I was in Switzerland at the time and this accident was big news on French TV. I remember it well, I believe it took the whole hour! Not only because of Didier Pironi but because the others, one who was a world class journalist and a winner at Paris Dakar if I remember correctly. Paris Match had a nice piece on all the men that week as well.

Pironi was always one of my favorites. I was too young to understand or pay attention to politics, like San Marino 82 at the time, so that never influenced my feelings for Didier. Even if Gilles was my all time favorite. It would have been nice if he would have gone Group C racing or touring car racing after his accident rather then boat racing.

It's a sad deal. RIP Didier, Bernard and Jean-Claude. Too bad people will talk more about the 82 San Marino GP rather then everything else he accomplished in his brilliant career.

[jj2728]

Originally posted by T54

the very God of Speed that got bent out of shape when he found what could have been his on-track equal?

No, not even close. tho Didi was a very good driver, he was not on the same level as Gilles. Recall Monaco 1981 and the truck of a Ferrari. Gilles 2nd on the grid, Didi 17th. Villeneuve won the race, lapping his teamate in the process. I will dispute 'ad nauseum' the fact that Pironi was the on track equal of Villeneuve. Gilles "got bent out of shape' as it were, not only due to Didi's tactics at Imola, but because he was a victim of Ferrari's insistence that there be no clear number 1 driver. If anything, Gilles should be accused of 'naivette'. He trusted Didi. That trust cost him the Imola win in 1982. Sadly, as a consequence to that it also cost him his life. Pironi could have become world champion in 1982 AFTER the death of Villeneuve. To me it remains a mystery to this day why he pushed so hard durning that rainy misty morning at Hockenheim. I was very lucky to have met and spend some time with him at Monaco in 82. As nice a person as one could hope to encounter. Sad really, the 82 season was a numbing affair.

[T54]

I guess it is just a matter of opinion. It is mine that Pironi had previously shown in the Ligier and Tyrell that he was the equal of anyone, but somewhat slightly less insane than Gilles. He also won le Mans with Jaussaud by being gentle with the fragile A442T, overwhelming the 936's through a well-run tactical race. Going 110% gets you nowhere. Pironi was a relatively shy and distant person to unknown, and some took this for galic arrogance. I can certify that nothing could be further from the truth. Arrogant were the Italian sensationalist Autosprint rag and the British racing car media of the period in making assumptions that were not factual.

[Stefan Schmidt]

I was in Zeltweg for F1 that day and the message of his death came over speakers

[racer69]

Originally posted by T54

How about the ethics of a Villeneuve-struck media that refused to even consider that Didier was actually a damned good driver with gentle and kind manner, and never gave him a break for having the nerve to want to win races on front of their idolized Gof of Speed, the very God of Speed that got bent out of shape when he found what could have been his on-track equal?

Have to agree.

I've never been able to work out why Pironi copped the caning he did.

If the same thing happened today (Imola '82), he'd be lauded for not following team orders and making a race of it for the paying fans....

RIP Didier..... in my opinion one of his greatest drives was the 1980 British GP (although not winning it of course), i think i'll have a watch of it tonight.

[f1steveuk]

I have to defend myself here!;)

On track, I had every respect for Pironi, and Imola '82 showed he wanted to win, but however you dress it up, he went back on an agreement, maybe that's a sign of the times, but go back years before that, would Collins have done the same to Hawthorn?

I am not swayed but just that one event anyway, although there does seem to be a fixation with it, made worse no doubt by Nigel Roebucks reporting, which has to be biased because of his feelings toward Gilles. No, I didn't know the man, but I have spoken with people who dealt with him, and as I stressed, I wasn't convinced by his OFF track ethics, admitidly reported secondhand, but you can only go on what you know, or have been told, and it is far more than one person that said this, although as has been said, today it would be looked on as "determined application, narrowminded desire for success", maybe I am from the wrong generation?!

In summary, I did not dislike Pironi (I ws pleased as punch when Tyrrell signed him), but in the same way I didn't care for Emerson, because he was preventing "my" team, Tyrrell from winning. Then I met "Emmo" and of course it's all different!!

I going to sit on the shelf now.

[ozzy.g]

Originally posted by racer69


If the same thing happened today (Imola '82), he'd be lauded for not following team orders and making a race of it for the paying fans....

Must say: Villeneuve was clearly faster than Pironi (great driver, I agree). The results say so, not me. And I have no doubt that Gilles would have become world champion in 82.

And: the matter is not that he didn't followed team orders (the debate about team orders is clearly exagerated nowadays, because F1 has nothing else to say in terms of emotions), the matter was that Gilles clearly slowed his car. And assuming that it's Gilles (come on, that win was his and he has been the number one in Ferrari since Monza 79, though never said) and the man who did everything to make Didier feel good at Ferrari, it is not simply desobeying a team order...

But I can understand that a man can do mistakes...misjudge real life for a while...above all in a F1 car, when the world run so faster around you...it was a pity...And Didier knew so...after Zolder, Didier "became" Gilles...that's why he suffered that incident at Hockenheim...

RIP, Didier...

[ozzy.g]

Originally posted by f1steveuk
I have to defend myself here!;)

On track, I had every respect for Pironi, and Imola '82 showed he wanted to win, but however you dress it up, he went back on an agreement, maybe that's a sign of the times, but go back years before that, would Collins have done the same to Hawthorn?

I am not swayed but just that one event anyway, although there does seem to be a fixation with it, made worse no doubt by Nigel Roebucks reporting, which has to be biased because of his feelings toward Gilles. No, I didn't know the man, but I have spoken with people who dealt with him, and as I stressed, I wasn't convinced by his OFF track ethics, admitidly reported secondhand, but you can only go on what you know, or have been told, and it is far more than one person that said this, although as has been said, today it would be looked on as "determined application, narrowminded desire for success", maybe I am from the wrong generation?!

No, you are from the right generation

[Stephen W]

Originally posted by jj2728


No, not even close. tho Didi was a very good driver, he was not on the same level as Gilles. Recall Monaco 1981 and the truck of a Ferrari. Gilles 2nd on the grid, Didi 17th. Villeneuve won the race, lapping his teamate in the process. I will dispute 'ad nauseum' the fact that Pironi was the on track equal of Villeneuve. Gilles "got bent out of shape' as it were, not only due to Didi's tactics at Imola, but because he was a victim of Ferrari's insistence that there be no clear number 1 driver. If anything, Gilles should be accused of 'naivette'. He trusted Didi. That trust cost him the Imola win in 1982. Sadly, as a consequence to that it also cost him his life. Pironi could have become world champion in 1982 AFTER the death of Villeneuve. To me it remains a mystery to this day why he pushed so hard durning that rainy misty morning at Hockenheim. I was very lucky to have met and spend some time with him at Monaco in 82. As nice a person as one could hope to encounter. Sad really, the 82 season was a numbing affair.

I don't think the accident at Hockenheim was a question about Pironi and that he "pushed so hard", it was more a question of why Prost was trundling round acting as a mobile chicane!

I was at Hockenheim and saw a flash of the accident. I was looking down the straight at a huge ball of spray that was approaching the stadium section when a red oblect flew up in the air. I believe that Pironi never saw Prost and that he was not expecting a car to be going slowly at that point on the track. The car was brought back into the Pit Lane on the back of a truck and it looked a mess!

At that point in the season I thought that Pironi was going to be the first French World Champion but it was not ot be. I always believed that Pironi was a good driver but he was no where near as good as Villeneuve. It was an awful accident that robbed motor sport of a talented driver and left yet another riddle for people to argue about for years to come.

[F1Fanatic.co.uk]

I never saw Pironi race. He inevitably gets painted as the bad guy in the Villeneuve story but I think his own history is interesting - and sad.

For what it's worth, earlier this year John Hogan told F1 Racing that he didn't believe the story about team orders at Imola was true (quote).

But what I always wondered about was Pironi's state of mind after Villeneuve's death, before he had his crash at Hockenheim, He was involved in Paletti's crash, there were claims of trouble in his personal life and of course he was deeply driven to win the championship.

[James Page]

Originally posted by T54

How about the ethics of a Villeneuve-struck media that refused to even consider that Didier was actually a damned good driver with gentle and kind manner, and never gave him a break for having the nerve to want to win races on front of their idolized Gof of Speed, the very God of Speed that got bent out of shape when he found what could have been his on-track equal?

Even Nigel Roebuck has repeatedly said that Pironi the driver was extremely talented. It's Pironi the man that seems to divide opinion. The lap times from Imola ’82 clearly show that Villeneuve wasn't expecting to have to race his team-mate when they were so short on fuel. The laps he led were about two seconds slower than those Pironi did. It was the fact that people thought he'd been beaten in a straight fight, when he obviously hadn't, that was offensive to Gilles.

Whatever the whys and wherefores of Imola, of greater significance to my mind is that the Ferrari team manager was best man at Pironi's wedding and Villeneuve wasn't even invited. Not sure you need to be much of a cynic to see the politics in that.

[Gerard Gamand]

After the horrible crash of Hockenheim 1982, Didier undergo more 30 operations (!) in 4 years...
Nevermind, the 13 august of 1986, on the Paul Ricard track, he tried secretly for the first time an formula 1.
It was the big and slow AGS JH21#032...
He quickly understood that formula 1 was finished for him.
Here a pic of this special day :

[Gerard Gamand]

Here this interresting pic

[Hieronymus]

Gérard

There was also the test for Ligier at Dijon. I posted my photo on a TNF thread several years ago...can't recall the name of the thread or even the date when he tested the Ligier.

[T54]

Even Nigel Roebuck has repeatedly said that Pironi the driver was extremely talented. It's Pironi the man that seems to divide opinion.

Because few were able to approach him and really know him because of his shyness. Didier Pironi was an extremely pleasant, low-key, well-educated gentleman with the spirit of a tiger. I wish that Ken Tyrell would still be alive to give him the justice he deserves for posterity. Then there would be little discussion of what kind of man he was.

[Manfred Cubenoggin]

Well...

I DON'T MISS HIM ONE DAMN BIT.

[noikeee]

All this stuff is way before I started watching F1, but I always thought it was really unfair how people seemed to blame Didier for Gilles' death. Sure, his behaviour at Imola was questionable to say the least, but is there any proof Gilles was pushing all that hard in that lap at Zolder in an angry state of mind due to Didier's actions? Wouldn't he need to drive a fast lap either way, if it was any other driver with the best time in qualifying at the time? And if Gilles was indeed angry because of Didier, wasn't part of his own job to keep himself cool enough to put in a good lap without mistakes?

I just find it really really strange that a driver that is sitting in the pitlane is blamed for an incident between two drivers on track. It all comes down to an unfortunate misunderstanding between a driver in a fast lap, and a driver slowing down on his outlap - it might be easier for people to understand tragic circumstances by assigning blame to someone, but not every tragedy results from evil people, sometimes it just results from bad luck.

I don't know, my opinion is only based on what I've read of from the incident, the people that were there at the time probably have more knowledge and therefore a better view of it.

RIP Didier and Gilles.

[ex Rhodie racer]

To accuse Didier of being in any way responsible for Gilles accident is just plain wrong.

Manfred. That was tasteless and hurtful to the many who knew him. Best keep those thoughts to yourself.

RIP Didier

[Ross Stonefeld]

I find it very curious that when Pironi and Villeneuve are brought up it quickly lowers the tone to a level I normally associate with a different end of the forum. I see it a little bit even in journalists from the time.

To try to keep things on the historical track, is Pironi/Villeneuve perhaps the beginning of the polarisation of supporters of teammates?

[ozzy.g]

Originally posted by paranoik0
All this stuff is way before I started watching F1, but I always thought it was really unfair how people seemed to blame Didier for Gilles' death.

I don't think that this is the discussion here.

But Imola (as Zolder) 82 is one of the most important event in Formula 1. I have no doubt that Pironi changed a lot after Zolder but because of his behavior at Imola. Gilles dies, you "left" him in that manner...it's not a good "moral" situation for a man that had to "replace" him, the number 1, the man who trusted you...

I think that without all those "incidents" (including Imola 82) the story of the sport would have been a lot different, above all in the 80s...

1982 Gilles world champion
1983 Didier world champion (assuming that Gilles was not in Ferrari that year)

Too many if, I know...

[ozzy.g]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
To try to keep things on the historical track, is Pironi/Villeneuve perhaps the beginning of the polarisation of supporters of teammates?

Maybe after 82...before there's no doubt that Gilles was THE man...

[FLB]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
I find it very curious that when Pironi and Villeneuve are brought up it quickly lowers the tone to a level I normally associate with a different end of the forum. I see it a little bit even in journalists from the time.

To try to keep things on the historical track, is Pironi/Villeneuve perhaps the beginning of the polarisation of supporters of teammates?

AFAIK, the first teammate pairing to create such dissension was Tazio Nuvolari/Achille Varzi. People were very passionate about them, to the point that the contemporary press refers to Nuvolariani and Varziani.

[Jerome]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
To try to keep things on the historical track, is Pironi/Villeneuve perhaps the beginning of the polarisation of supporters of teammates?

I think - but that's only an assumption, I would have to dig deeper into the stuff to call it a theory - that your impression is right, but not because of the fans themselves, but because of journalism. Sportsjournalism has become much more focused on 'the personal' aspect of the sportsmen. Varzi and Nuvolari were adored in their time as superhumans (famous poets wrote poems about them!), while these days sportsmen and sportswomen are often harangued untill they show their mortal, 'normal' side.

Perhaps that focussing on the 'they too are mortal' aspect of sports, started in the eighties. Again, I am not sure in any way, but I think that Ross is right that this Pironi/Villeneuve feud is a strange breakingpoints in the history writing of motorsport. Yes, the tabloidpress wrote about Hunt, as did the German yellow press wrote about Lauda... but still it was different then.

[stevewf1]

MotorSport magazine (vol 83, no 5) has a good article on the Villeneuve/Pironi pairing in 1982 - written by Paul Fearnley.

I'm not allowed to quote anything here, but the article essentially says that Pironi knew he couldn't beat Villeneuve on the track, so he used mind games instead...

[f1steveuk]

Originally posted by stevewf1
I'm not allowed to quote anything here, but the article essentially says that Pironi knew he couldn't beat Villeneuve on the track, so he used mind games instead...

Which is exactly what I was told he did in other field's, sponsorship negotiations, etc etc Back on the fence with me!

[Hieronymus]

Originally posted by f1steveuk


Which is exactly what I was told he did in other field's, sponsorship negotiations, etc etc Back on the fence with me!

French drivers did not get ELF sponsorship in a lucky dip...

[f1steveuk]

Originally posted by Hieronymus


French drivers did not get ELF sponsorship in a lucky dip...

Who said ELF? If the third from top guy at Candy tells me he was manipulative, I think I'd have to take some notice, and he? one of about five.

Like I keep saying, great driver, but off track.................

Now I am staying on my fence

[Marcel Visbeen]

Originally posted by Jerome.Inen


I think - but that's only an assumption, I would have to dig deeper into the stuff to call it a theory - that your impression is right, but not because of the fans themselves, but because of journalism. Sportsjournalism has become much more focused on 'the personal' aspect of the sportsmen. Varzi and Nuvolari were adored in their time as superhumans (famous poets wrote poems about them!), while these days sportsmen and sportswomen are often harangued untill they show their mortal, 'normal' side.

Perhaps that focussing on the 'they too are mortal' aspect of sports, started in the eighties. Again, I am not sure in any way, but I think that Ross is right that this Pironi/Villeneuve feud is a strange breakingpoints in the history writing of motorsport. Yes, the tabloidpress wrote about Hunt, as did the German yellow press wrote about Lauda... but still it was different then.

I don't think you can compare Nuvolari/Varzi or even Lauda/Hunt with the so called 'Pironi/Villeneuve feud'. Effectively the feud lasted no longer than two days of qualifying at Zolder.

[Hieronymus]

Originally posted by f1steveuk


Who said ELF?

Me.

I guess you had to be good to be notice by them. Wasn't it ELF that offered him sponsorship as a young driver, like they've also done with other great French racing drivers. Surely you could not manipulate yourself into a sponsorship deal with them, since the company's objective was to spot and sponsor the best racers.

[Bruno]

pour moi Pironi restera à jamais l'homme qui à tuer Gilles Villeneuve.

Et quand, à Imola à sa descente du podium Gilles à déclarer "il ne l'emportera pas au paradis"
il ne s'était pas trompé.
Gilles, lui y est au paradis.

[Marcel Visbeen]

Originally posted by Bruno
pour moi Pironi restera à jamais l'homme qui à tuer Gilles Villeneuve.

Et quand, à Imola à sa descente du podium Gilles à déclarer "il ne l'emportera pas au paradis"
il ne s'était pas trompé.
Gilles, lui y est au paradis.

And suddenly we are in France...

[Gerard Gamand]

Bruno I think you are excessiv

Gilles kill himself after a terrible "mesentente" with the slow March of Jochen Mass

[f1steveuk]

Originally posted by Hieronymus


Me.

I guess you had to be good to be notice by them. Wasn't it ELF that offered him sponsorship as a young driver, like they've also done with other great French racing drivers. Surely you could not manipulate yourself into a sponsorship deal with them, since the company's objective was to spot and sponsor the best racers.

I could show my ignorance here, so, sorry, but wasn't ELF money, pre F1, decided by testing shoot outs? Did Pironi have ELF money pre F1 (sorry, I really don't know off the top of my head), and as I have said, several times, I have no doubts about Pironi's talent in a car, and not a huge problem with him out of one either, but I have interviewed people, who dealt with him, outside of a car, and a couple outside of the sport, that said he was manipulative, and as has been said, quite prepared to use "mind games" to get what he wanted/needed, and in his defense, that's probably no different to todays drivers.

Bottom line, for me, I do believe an agreement was made within Ferrari before Imola 1982, that Pironi forgot about, and Gilles did get annoyed about it, and held a grudge, even for that short time. I do not believe Imola had any baring on Zolder, Gilles wanted to get an extra lap out of his qauli's, and made a snap decision that was wrong, he was like any driver that day, he wanted to be quickest, not just to beat Didier. I do not think that last thought that went through Gilles mind was, "well that showed him", he wasn't about beating one man, team mate or not, I agree with Patrick Tambay, his last thought would have been "****, that was going to be a quick one!"

Now, nail me to that fence........

[Hieronymus]

OK, my friend, I respect your views.

As Bruno, also pointed out...Didier and Gilles are surely in "paradise"...and I'm sure they are laughing at us all.

[f1steveuk]

Hieronymus, it's all part of TNF! A healthy discussion, and I admire your views, and your defence of Pironi.

As an Englishman, living in France, I should point out of the few heroes I have in motorsport, two are French, Cevert and Depaillier.

Four drivers, all taken way before their time, and the important thing is, we remember, and still defend them, that alone shows the impact they had on us.

[Marcel Visbeen]

Originally posted by f1steveuk


Did Pironi have ELF money pre F1

Pironi won the Volant Elf competition at the Winfield racing school in 1972 and was sponsored by Elf throughout his career: Formule Renault, F3, F2 and F1 with Tyrrell and Ligier. Only during his two years at Ferrari he wasn't, because of the obvious conflict with Ferrari sponsor Agip. Even the boat that killed Pironi in 1987 carried Elf sponsorship.

[f1steveuk]

So he did "win" it in a shoot out, thanks.

[Marcel Visbeen]

Originally posted by Hieronymus


As Bruno, also pointed out...Didier and Gilles are surely in "paradise"...and I'm sure they are laughing at us all.

I'm affraid that's not quite what Bruno said... but maybe it's just my French.
Let's keep it at that.

And I totally agree with you, I think they would be very surprised at the fact that we still discuss them this way.

[Phil Rainford]

Villeneuve was and will always be ultimate hero, for years I blamed Pironi for the fact that I was no longer able to idolise him driving a Grand Prix car. However probably a combination of maturity and realism have seen me put the Imola incident is perspective.

Both Villeneuve and Pironi must have known by Imola that they were driving a car that could make either of them World Champion. Villeneuve one could imagine was looking to win the World Championship by winning every Grand Prix and being the fastest driver in each of the races, that was part of the attraction of the man. Pironi’s approach if he was going to beat his rival had to be slightly more measured and physiological.

When one takes into consideration that future World Championships have been decided by some drivers deliberately taking their opponents off the track, then I feel that history must not judge Pironi too harshly.

[FLB]

I don't those of you who read French, but Martine Camus's Didier Pironi, La flèche brisée makes for very interesting reading...

[Hieronymus]

Originally posted by Marcel Visbeen


I'm affraid that's not quite what Bruno said... but maybe it's just my French.
Let's keep it at that.

And I totally agree with you, I think they would be very surprised at the fact that we still discuss them this way.

Yes, "not quite"...but that is what I would like to believe.

f1steveuk

Depailler...we are in 100% agreement here!! Pironi actually was very supportive of Patrick's family following his fatal accident.

[Bruno]

Originally posted by Gerard Gamand
Bruno I think you are excessiv

Gilles kill himself after a terrible "mesentente" with the slow March of Jochen Mass

non. la mésentente de Zolder à commencer lour du dernier tour à Imola.
no. disagreement of Zolder to begin lour the last lap to Imola.