I know that Ray Harroun won the first 500 mile race at Indy driving the Marmon Wasp. However, Joe Dawson was also driving a Marmon. Was it also a Wasp, and if not, what was it? Did it look like the Wasp?
Marmon Wasp
Started by
LaRascasse
, Aug 26 2007 20:10
13 replies to this topic
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#2
Vitesse2
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Posted 26 August 2007 - 22:47
The Wasp gained its name because of its gold and black colour (color?;) ) scheme.
Artemis Images are usually the best place to start, but they don't yet have the 1911 pictures online. From the very small pictures in Rick Popely's book and from having seen the Wasp in the metal at Goodwood, the Dawson car appears to have different bodywork (and no mirror!) But of course, the chassis could be the same ....
(Dawson's car had artillery wheels and Harroun's had ones with enclosing discs (disks?;) ) if that helps.)
Artemis Images are usually the best place to start, but they don't yet have the 1911 pictures online. From the very small pictures in Rick Popely's book and from having seen the Wasp in the metal at Goodwood, the Dawson car appears to have different bodywork (and no mirror!) But of course, the chassis could be the same ....
(Dawson's car had artillery wheels and Harroun's had ones with enclosing discs (disks?;) ) if that helps.)
#3
Gerr
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Posted 27 August 2007 - 05:29
There was only one "Wasp"....originally called "The Yellow Jacket" it was powered by a one-off 477 cu.in. six cylinder. Dawson's Marmon was powered by a 495 cu.in. four cylinder, again a one-off. Normal, road going Marmons were four cylinders as well, but much smaller, around 300 cu.in.
#4
Walter Zoomie
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#5
robert dick
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Posted 27 August 2007 - 08:03
The Marmon "Wasp" made its appearence in a three-day meet which was held between Thursday, May 5, and Saturday, May 7, 1910, on the 2-mile dirt track at Atlanta, Georgia.
Another Marmon special turned up in the third 1910 Indianapolis meet, a two-day affair on Saturday, September 3, and Monday, September 5.
Ray Harroun had mounted a new long-stroke engine, a 413-inch F-head four in the dimensions of 4.5 by 6.5 inches, into the 116-inch frame of the Wasp six.
A second long-stroke four was being tested in Howard Marmon's touring car, and was to be mounted in a 120-inch frame to make a road race special in view of the Vanderbilt, Fairmount Park and Savannah races which closed the 1910 season.
Both Marmons, the Wasp and the long-stroke four with 120-inch frame started in the first Indianapolis 500 on Tuesday, May 30, 1911. The long-stroke four was driven by Joe Dawson with Bruce Keene as riding mechanic. The stroke had been lengthened from 6.5 to 7 inches, giving 445 cubic inches, and the crankshaft reinforced and better balanced. Cyrus Patschke and W. L. Studebaker acted as reliefs for Harroun and Dawson.
Another Marmon special turned up in the third 1910 Indianapolis meet, a two-day affair on Saturday, September 3, and Monday, September 5.
Ray Harroun had mounted a new long-stroke engine, a 413-inch F-head four in the dimensions of 4.5 by 6.5 inches, into the 116-inch frame of the Wasp six.
A second long-stroke four was being tested in Howard Marmon's touring car, and was to be mounted in a 120-inch frame to make a road race special in view of the Vanderbilt, Fairmount Park and Savannah races which closed the 1910 season.
Both Marmons, the Wasp and the long-stroke four with 120-inch frame started in the first Indianapolis 500 on Tuesday, May 30, 1911. The long-stroke four was driven by Joe Dawson with Bruce Keene as riding mechanic. The stroke had been lengthened from 6.5 to 7 inches, giving 445 cubic inches, and the crankshaft reinforced and better balanced. Cyrus Patschke and W. L. Studebaker acted as reliefs for Harroun and Dawson.
#6
robert dick
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Posted 28 August 2007 - 09:04
In the 1911 Indianapolis 500 report, the magazine Motor Age quoted the following specifications (the first Indianapolis 500 race was open to class E non-stock cars of 600 cubic inches or less, minimum weight 2300 pounds, meaning a free-for-all for 600-inch cars weighing at least 2300 pounds) :
- # 32 Harroun's Marmon Wasp six - bore/stroke = 4.5/5 inches - 477 cubic inches - T-head - cone clutch - 3-speed gearbox - wheelbase 116 inches - track 56.5 inches - tires from Firestone 34 x 4.5 front, 35 x 5 rear;
- # 31 Dawson's Marmon four - bore/stroke = 4.5/7 inches - 445 cubic inches - F-head - cone clutch - 3-speed gearbox - wheelbase 120 inches - track 56 inches - tires from Michelin 880 x 120 front and rear.
Since the four-cylinder Marmon was initially intended for road races, it was often called "Grand Prix Marmon" (sometimes in the contemporary press, more often in books published in later times).
- # 32 Harroun's Marmon Wasp six - bore/stroke = 4.5/5 inches - 477 cubic inches - T-head - cone clutch - 3-speed gearbox - wheelbase 116 inches - track 56.5 inches - tires from Firestone 34 x 4.5 front, 35 x 5 rear;
- # 31 Dawson's Marmon four - bore/stroke = 4.5/7 inches - 445 cubic inches - F-head - cone clutch - 3-speed gearbox - wheelbase 120 inches - track 56 inches - tires from Michelin 880 x 120 front and rear.
Since the four-cylinder Marmon was initially intended for road races, it was often called "Grand Prix Marmon" (sometimes in the contemporary press, more often in books published in later times).
#7
RA Historian
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Posted 28 August 2007 - 12:04
And then there is the forgotten man, Cyrus Paschke (not sure of the spelling). He co-drove with Ray Harroun to that first 500 win, but gets no credit. Just a piece of useless trivia...........
#8
LaRascasse
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Posted 28 August 2007 - 15:08
Thanks everyone for your valuable information so far. I appreciate it.
Also, RA, I did know about Harroun's "relief" driver. Along with you and I, others obviously know of him as well, and so he is not really forgotten. We know he deserves credit for his role, which clearly was an important one in what has become a landmark in motorsport -- the first 500. It is not useless trivia unless we allow it to become so.
Also, RA, I did know about Harroun's "relief" driver. Along with you and I, others obviously know of him as well, and so he is not really forgotten. We know he deserves credit for his role, which clearly was an important one in what has become a landmark in motorsport -- the first 500. It is not useless trivia unless we allow it to become so.
#9
RA Historian
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Posted 29 August 2007 - 00:41
Agreed wholeheartedly!Originally posted by LaRascasse
It is not useless trivia unless we allow it to become so.
#10
Rob G
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Posted 29 August 2007 - 03:26
Well, that plus the long pointy tail!Originally posted by Vitesse2
The Wasp gained its name because of its gold and black colour (color?;) ) scheme.
There's a photo in Jack Fox's "The Illustrated History of the Indianapolis 500 1911-1984" showing the un-numbered Wasp perched on 12-spoke wood wheels. The photo is not captioned, so I don't know if it was even taken at Indy, let alone how long before the race. I think the wheels on Dawson's car had nine spokes.Originally posted by Vitesse2
(Dawson's car had artillery wheels and Harroun's had ones with enclosing discs (disks?;) ) if that helps.)
#11
robert dick
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Posted 29 August 2007 - 09:01
"Wasp" :
In March 1910, Motor Age described Harroun's new Marmon six racer as the "Yellow Jacket" or the "Hornet": "The new Marmon Hornet is said to be the first gasoline car built to comply with the new racing rules for class C having limited piston displacement regardless of weight. The body is built along the new lines of wind-resistance, and the car is eligible to compete in the 451-600 division."
In May 1910, in its first race at Atlanta, the Marmon six was quickly called the "Wasp" since "it resembles this insect as it skims up the backstretch."
(The 2-miler at Atlanta was owned by Asa Candler, Jr., the son of the founder of the Coca Cola Co., and had been inaugurated in November 1909 with a complete auto week the feature of which was a 200-mile stock car race won by Louis Chevrolet in a Buick. The track was surfaced with "a mixture of clay and Augusta gravel".)
Wasp wheels :
The Wasp had wood wheels with "sheet metal disks mounted on the spokes".
Patschke/1911 Indianapolis 500 :
The Motor Age report did not mention for how many laps Patschke relieved Harroun - and Dawson.
Patschke took the wheel of the Wasp after 64 laps, and was still at the wheel after 100 laps. Harroun was back in the car after 150 laps.
By the end of the race Dawson, who was also relieved by Patschke, bumped another car and poked a big hole in the radiator of his Marmon. He stopped for oil but did not put any water in because he figured the leaky radiator would not hold it. The experiment turned out well, but only after a revision of the checker's report which lasted for more than 24 hours: Dawson was ranked fifth instead of being reckoned as not finishing.
In March 1910, Motor Age described Harroun's new Marmon six racer as the "Yellow Jacket" or the "Hornet": "The new Marmon Hornet is said to be the first gasoline car built to comply with the new racing rules for class C having limited piston displacement regardless of weight. The body is built along the new lines of wind-resistance, and the car is eligible to compete in the 451-600 division."
In May 1910, in its first race at Atlanta, the Marmon six was quickly called the "Wasp" since "it resembles this insect as it skims up the backstretch."
(The 2-miler at Atlanta was owned by Asa Candler, Jr., the son of the founder of the Coca Cola Co., and had been inaugurated in November 1909 with a complete auto week the feature of which was a 200-mile stock car race won by Louis Chevrolet in a Buick. The track was surfaced with "a mixture of clay and Augusta gravel".)
Wasp wheels :
The Wasp had wood wheels with "sheet metal disks mounted on the spokes".
Patschke/1911 Indianapolis 500 :
The Motor Age report did not mention for how many laps Patschke relieved Harroun - and Dawson.
Patschke took the wheel of the Wasp after 64 laps, and was still at the wheel after 100 laps. Harroun was back in the car after 150 laps.
By the end of the race Dawson, who was also relieved by Patschke, bumped another car and poked a big hole in the radiator of his Marmon. He stopped for oil but did not put any water in because he figured the leaky radiator would not hold it. The experiment turned out well, but only after a revision of the checker's report which lasted for more than 24 hours: Dawson was ranked fifth instead of being reckoned as not finishing.
#12
Vitesse2
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Posted 29 August 2007 - 22:49
Okay, can we take this back a bit further?
There were two Marmons in the 1910 Grand Prize, driven by Joe Dawson (#8) and Ray Harroun (#14). Quattlebaum's book has a picture of Harroun's #14 car, described as "the Grand Prize Marmon". This appears to be the same as (or similar to) the 4-cylinder car which Dawson drove at Indy in 1911. So - were there two 4-cylinder cars? Or did Dawson drive the Wasp at Savannah?
There were two Marmons in the 1910 Grand Prize, driven by Joe Dawson (#8) and Ray Harroun (#14). Quattlebaum's book has a picture of Harroun's #14 car, described as "the Grand Prize Marmon". This appears to be the same as (or similar to) the 4-cylinder car which Dawson drove at Indy in 1911. So - were there two 4-cylinder cars? Or did Dawson drive the Wasp at Savannah?
#13
robert dick
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Posted 30 August 2007 - 09:11
Marmons in the 1910 Grand Prize/Savannah :
# 8 - Dawson (out in lap 5 because of broken crankshaft) - F-head, 4.5/6.5 inches, 413 cubic inches, wheelbase 120 inches.
This was the special driven by Harroun in the 1910 Vanderbilt (October 1 - out in lap 16 because of broken crankshaft) and the 1910 Fairmount Park race/Philadelphia (October 8 - out in lap 13 because of broken rear axle housing).
# 14 - Harroun (replaced by Dawson in lap 15) - T-head, 4.5/5 inches, 318 cubic inches, wheelbase 120 inches.
This was a stripped production chassis in which Dawson had finished second in the 1910 Vanderbilt.
= = = = = =
During the summer of 1911, after the first Indianapolis 500, Harroun and his crew of ten men assembled two additional four-cylinder F-head long-stroke road race Marmons, whereby the F-head long-stroke four was rebored from 4.5 to 4.75 inches, the stroke remaining unchanged at 7 inches (in view of the 1911 Indianapolis 500 the stroke of the first engine had been lengthened from 6.5 to 7 inches).
On Sunday, October 15, these new Marmon specials started at Santa Monica, California, in the Dick Ferris Cup, a 24-lap 202-mile free-for-all. Cyrus Patschke and Joe Dawson finished second and third, behind Harvey Herrick in a National (5 x 5.6875 inches) entered by the local coast agent. Patschke led until lap 21 but finished on three cylinders.
On Monday, November 27, 1911, the two Marmon specials started in the Vanderbilt at Savannah, with Patschke and Burman. Burman switched over from a Prince Henry Benz to the Marmon due to "differences in the matter of equipment". Burman's Marmon was eliminated in lap 8 with magneto trouble, and Patschke's car one lap later with a disabled water pump.
The 1911 Grand Prize followed on Thanksgiving, Thursday, November 30. In lap 5 Burman's Marmon fell out with a broken magneto shaft sprocket. Cyrus Patschke was able to put his Marmon to the front, but only for a few miles. In lap 10 the cylinders of the yellow racer loosened from the crankcase.
= = = = = =
The three Marmon specials (four-cylinder, F-head) spent the 1912 season in the storeroom.
In 1913, two of the long-stroke specials (the original long-stroke four with 4.5/7 inches, and one of the later cars with 4.75/7 inches) ended up in the hands of Charles Erbstein, Chicago's famous criminal lawyer: "Charles E. Erbstein compiled a record of having defended more than a hundred persons accused of murder without having the death penalty imposed. Three times he was threatened with disbarment, and on each occasion, acting as his own impassioned attorney, he was acquitted and emerged full of fight for another battle. Erbstein would run up and down in front of the jury box, shouting his arguments and excoriating the prosecution. His inexhaustible energy, droll wit, and legal brilliance ranked him with Clarence Darrow, and his income grew with his notoriety."
Erbstein entered the original long-stroke special (4.5 x 7 inches, painted yellow), in the 1913 Elgin National Trophy for Joe Dawson. The Marmon was flagged sixth, one lap and 31 minutes behind the winner, Anderson in a Stutz.
In February 1914, in the Grand Prize at Santa Monica, Guy Ball drove a long-stroke Marmon to second, 40 minutes behind Pullen in a Mercer.
In May 1914, the 4.5/7-inch Erbstein Marmon started in the Indianapolis 500, on Houk wire wheels, with Joe Dawson at the wheel. Pat King, brother-in-law of Charles Erbstein, was to ride beside Dawson, but failed to pass the medical examination. He was replaced by Vere Barnes.
In lap 46, Ray Gilhooley swung into the south turn, running high up, when a tire blew, capsizing his green Isotta. Gilhooley's dazed mechanic, Lino Bonini, was crawling up the bank. Wilcox in a Gray Fox dodged him. Dawson in the Marmon started to cut through between the mechanic and the outside wall when he saw he could not make it without hitting the man. To avoid this, Dawson swung down the bank and tried to cut back again, but the Marmon turned over, flinging Dawson and his mechanic. Dawson was the most seriously hurt of the four involved in the wreck, but he had saved the life of poor Bonini.
In August 1914, all three four-cylinder long-stroke Marmons appeared at Elgin.
The original special (4.5/7 inches) was entered by Erbstein for Lou Heinemann.
Erbstein had sold his second car (4.75/7 inches) to W. H. Harris, of Chicago, inventor of the Harris drive which did away with the differential. For the purpose of demonstrating his device, Harris entered the Marmon for Mel Stringer.
And the third Marmon (4.75/7 inches) was nominated by Ernie Moross for Wilbur D'Alene.
Heinemann finished sixth in the CAC Trophy and went out in the Elgin National because of a broken transmission. Stringer's Marmon took a rest in the garage, wrecked by a spill in practice, Stringer sitting in the pits with his arm in a sling. In the CAC Trophy, D'Alene's Marmon was ruled out by the technical committee because its displacement exceeded 450 inches. In the Elgin National, D'Alene was too fast in Hornbeek's turn, crashed into a tree and broke the frame and radiator of the Marmon.
In 1915 Erbstein purchased two hundred acres near Elgin, erected a large residence with riding stable and own golf course, and named his estate Villa Olivia after his daughter.
# 8 - Dawson (out in lap 5 because of broken crankshaft) - F-head, 4.5/6.5 inches, 413 cubic inches, wheelbase 120 inches.
This was the special driven by Harroun in the 1910 Vanderbilt (October 1 - out in lap 16 because of broken crankshaft) and the 1910 Fairmount Park race/Philadelphia (October 8 - out in lap 13 because of broken rear axle housing).
# 14 - Harroun (replaced by Dawson in lap 15) - T-head, 4.5/5 inches, 318 cubic inches, wheelbase 120 inches.
This was a stripped production chassis in which Dawson had finished second in the 1910 Vanderbilt.
= = = = = =
During the summer of 1911, after the first Indianapolis 500, Harroun and his crew of ten men assembled two additional four-cylinder F-head long-stroke road race Marmons, whereby the F-head long-stroke four was rebored from 4.5 to 4.75 inches, the stroke remaining unchanged at 7 inches (in view of the 1911 Indianapolis 500 the stroke of the first engine had been lengthened from 6.5 to 7 inches).
On Sunday, October 15, these new Marmon specials started at Santa Monica, California, in the Dick Ferris Cup, a 24-lap 202-mile free-for-all. Cyrus Patschke and Joe Dawson finished second and third, behind Harvey Herrick in a National (5 x 5.6875 inches) entered by the local coast agent. Patschke led until lap 21 but finished on three cylinders.
On Monday, November 27, 1911, the two Marmon specials started in the Vanderbilt at Savannah, with Patschke and Burman. Burman switched over from a Prince Henry Benz to the Marmon due to "differences in the matter of equipment". Burman's Marmon was eliminated in lap 8 with magneto trouble, and Patschke's car one lap later with a disabled water pump.
The 1911 Grand Prize followed on Thanksgiving, Thursday, November 30. In lap 5 Burman's Marmon fell out with a broken magneto shaft sprocket. Cyrus Patschke was able to put his Marmon to the front, but only for a few miles. In lap 10 the cylinders of the yellow racer loosened from the crankcase.
= = = = = =
The three Marmon specials (four-cylinder, F-head) spent the 1912 season in the storeroom.
In 1913, two of the long-stroke specials (the original long-stroke four with 4.5/7 inches, and one of the later cars with 4.75/7 inches) ended up in the hands of Charles Erbstein, Chicago's famous criminal lawyer: "Charles E. Erbstein compiled a record of having defended more than a hundred persons accused of murder without having the death penalty imposed. Three times he was threatened with disbarment, and on each occasion, acting as his own impassioned attorney, he was acquitted and emerged full of fight for another battle. Erbstein would run up and down in front of the jury box, shouting his arguments and excoriating the prosecution. His inexhaustible energy, droll wit, and legal brilliance ranked him with Clarence Darrow, and his income grew with his notoriety."
Erbstein entered the original long-stroke special (4.5 x 7 inches, painted yellow), in the 1913 Elgin National Trophy for Joe Dawson. The Marmon was flagged sixth, one lap and 31 minutes behind the winner, Anderson in a Stutz.
In February 1914, in the Grand Prize at Santa Monica, Guy Ball drove a long-stroke Marmon to second, 40 minutes behind Pullen in a Mercer.
In May 1914, the 4.5/7-inch Erbstein Marmon started in the Indianapolis 500, on Houk wire wheels, with Joe Dawson at the wheel. Pat King, brother-in-law of Charles Erbstein, was to ride beside Dawson, but failed to pass the medical examination. He was replaced by Vere Barnes.
In lap 46, Ray Gilhooley swung into the south turn, running high up, when a tire blew, capsizing his green Isotta. Gilhooley's dazed mechanic, Lino Bonini, was crawling up the bank. Wilcox in a Gray Fox dodged him. Dawson in the Marmon started to cut through between the mechanic and the outside wall when he saw he could not make it without hitting the man. To avoid this, Dawson swung down the bank and tried to cut back again, but the Marmon turned over, flinging Dawson and his mechanic. Dawson was the most seriously hurt of the four involved in the wreck, but he had saved the life of poor Bonini.
In August 1914, all three four-cylinder long-stroke Marmons appeared at Elgin.
The original special (4.5/7 inches) was entered by Erbstein for Lou Heinemann.
Erbstein had sold his second car (4.75/7 inches) to W. H. Harris, of Chicago, inventor of the Harris drive which did away with the differential. For the purpose of demonstrating his device, Harris entered the Marmon for Mel Stringer.
And the third Marmon (4.75/7 inches) was nominated by Ernie Moross for Wilbur D'Alene.
Heinemann finished sixth in the CAC Trophy and went out in the Elgin National because of a broken transmission. Stringer's Marmon took a rest in the garage, wrecked by a spill in practice, Stringer sitting in the pits with his arm in a sling. In the CAC Trophy, D'Alene's Marmon was ruled out by the technical committee because its displacement exceeded 450 inches. In the Elgin National, D'Alene was too fast in Hornbeek's turn, crashed into a tree and broke the frame and radiator of the Marmon.
In 1915 Erbstein purchased two hundred acres near Elgin, erected a large residence with riding stable and own golf course, and named his estate Villa Olivia after his daughter.
#14
robert dick
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Posted 31 August 2007 - 09:30
Some Marmon photos :
1910 Elgin
Harroun and mechanic Harry Goetz - stripped stock chassis, T-head, 4.5/5 inches
http://memory.loc.go...563/s056328.jpg
http://memory.loc.go...564/s056418.jpg
Dawson - same type of car
http://memory.loc.go...563/s056323.jpg
= = =
1911 Indianapolis
Wasp
http://www.geh.org/a...html#topofimage
= = =
1914 Elgin
Heinemann - original road race special, F-head, 4.5/7 inches
http://memory.loc.go...598/s059883.jpg
http://memory.loc.go...562/s056227.jpg
Stringer - F-head, 4.75/7 inches
http://memory.loc.go...598/s059831.jpg
D'Alene - F-head, 4.75/7 inches
http://memory.loc.go...598/s059833.jpg
= = =
Charles Erbstein
http://memory.loc.go...072/n007225.jpg
1910 Elgin
Harroun and mechanic Harry Goetz - stripped stock chassis, T-head, 4.5/5 inches
http://memory.loc.go...563/s056328.jpg
http://memory.loc.go...564/s056418.jpg
Dawson - same type of car
http://memory.loc.go...563/s056323.jpg
= = =
1911 Indianapolis
Wasp
http://www.geh.org/a...html#topofimage
= = =
1914 Elgin
Heinemann - original road race special, F-head, 4.5/7 inches
http://memory.loc.go...598/s059883.jpg
http://memory.loc.go...562/s056227.jpg
Stringer - F-head, 4.75/7 inches
http://memory.loc.go...598/s059831.jpg
D'Alene - F-head, 4.75/7 inches
http://memory.loc.go...598/s059833.jpg
= = =
Charles Erbstein
http://memory.loc.go...072/n007225.jpg
